priceless1
Banned
Gah...you're right. The misinformation he spews is scary. But what's sad is that the naive will never know this. Sad, that.
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I'm feeling the urge to do a line-by-line on Tate's blog post.
That's a mighty big "if," Jennifer. We'll see. Did you ever specify a time? I seriously doubt that you'll ever see that $4,000 again. And no, it doesn't meet my definition of money always flowing toward the author.
Let me observe that Tate didn't release the comment that I left on their blog. They're welcome to post here any time, and their comments go up immediately.
That's correct. That includes a four-state seven-city tour for one of my books, a half-hour evening interview on Public Radio for another, and an hour on WBZ (the most listened-to radio station in the northeast) for yet a third.
That's a mighty big "if," Jennifer. We'll see. Did you ever specify a time? I seriously doubt that you'll ever see that $4,000 again. And no, it doesn't meet my definition of money always flowing toward the author.
Let me observe that Tate didn't release the comment that I left on their blog. They're welcome to post here any time, and their comments go up immediately.
That's correct. That includes a four-state seven-city tour for one of my books, a half-hour evening interview on Public Radio for another, and an hour on WBZ (the most listened-to radio station in the northeast) for yet a third.
Jennifer, I've been watching this conversation but not posting due to deadline pressures. I'd rather take the time to post than say something short that might come across different than I'd intended.
First, a short spot on a local network-affiliate morning show is cool. Congratulations!
I'm one of those authors who gets advances. I also attend a lot of regional genre conventions and help run one. I see what vanity, subsidy, and self-pubbed authors spend to get their books in front of readers. The successful ones approach it like a business and don't depend on the publisher (unless they're self-published, of course) to do things for them. Many are just throwing a lot of money into the "I'm a published author!" game and don't see results. It's sad, because some of those books could have done well with a commercial publisher. (ETA. Or they might have done better if the author was more savvy about their own marketing efforts.)
Success can happen, but you can't depend on your publisher to do everything. In that vein, may I suggest you branch out here and check out AW's forums on promotion and children's books?
This isn't a shot at any particular publisher (particularly since we've branched out to discuss the possible advantages of subsidy publishing), but more of a general observation based on my own experience. I do wish you the best. I just want anyone approaching this sort of publishing arrangement to understand the risks and rewards.
First, a short spot on a local network-affiliate morning show is cool. Congratulations!
I'm one of those authors who gets advances. I also attend a lot of regional genre conventions and help run one. I see what vanity, subsidy, and self-pubbed authors spend to get their books in front of readers. The successful ones approach it like a business and don't depend on the publisher (unless they're self-published, of course) to do things for them. Many are just throwing a lot of money into the "I'm a published author!" game and don't see results. It's sad, because some of those books could have done well with a commercial publisher. (ETA. Or they might have done better if the author was more savvy about their own marketing efforts.)
Success can happen, but you can't depend on your publisher to do everything. In that vein, may I suggest you branch out here and check out AW's forums on promotion and children's books?
This isn't a shot at any particular publisher (particularly since we've branched out to discuss the possible advantages of subsidy publishing), but more of a general observation based on my own experience. I do wish you the best. I just want anyone approaching this sort of publishing arrangement to understand the risks and rewards.
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Those of us with legitimate earned degrees from real graduate schools do care. Fraudulent claims of advanced degrees are rampant and offensive. I'm happy say where my Ph.D. degree came from and when, if anyone asks.
--Ken
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Personally, if someone isn't completely honest about themselves (and I don't know if Tate is a true Ph.D or not) I wonder what else they aren't being honest about. And that would bother me. Dishonesty bothers me.
I have never paid for any of these. Ever.
*ALWAYS* Money ALWAYS flows to the writer. Not "after a while", not "if I make this sales goal", ALWAYS.
No interpretation, and no technicalities.
Commercial books can fulfill this requirement, as can self-published books (Kindle's free, so is nook). The only ones that can't are vanity and subsidy outfits.
Unscrupulous, I couldn't speak to. That's up to you to decide, but subsidy is a definite.
Passive aggressive much?
If you see that as the only conclusion, then it's because you're choosing to.
Read it again. There's only one person on the defensive here.
You should. Anyone with a lettered degree should be able to back it up.
in which case it's not a real degree and shouldn't be presented as such
in which case, it should be qualified as such.
professional integrity is never beside the point. You should always be interested in whose name and reputation is attached to your work.
Congrats. You're a local author on a regional affiliate. It happens - even with vanity outfits.
I'm not yet published, but no, I've never paid for anything. I've done, had requested, and submitted my own illustrations (2 of the Big 6 and a couple of smaller presses), I've also gone the "no illustration" route, in which case they have their own illustrators, which cost nothing to the author at a commercial press.
Betas cost nothing, and if you're a competent writer with a grasp of grammar, then they should be sufficient to get your MS into submission shape. In house editors at a commercial press cost nothing to the author. Layout at a commercial press costs nothing to the author.
Online marketing through your blog and social networking, costs nothing; placement in a publisher's catalog (through which a bookstore chain / other venue can order it before it's on shelves) costs nothing to the author at a commercial press; professional revues, initial buzz, and cover blurbs cost nothing to an author at a commercial press.
Jen, everyone here honestly wants you to succeed. They want every author to succeed. The main concern is that oftentimes people who get involved with vanity presses or subsidy presses don't know what they're in for. The only way to combat that is to ask questions.
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This.
It may not seem like it now, but check back in a year and re-read these comments. You may see the virtual tongue-biting and tact then. Or not
.Meanwhile, good luck with your TV interview. I know you'll do well!
Jen,
I really wish you great success with your book. And I sincerely believe most of my fellow posters bear you the same good will.
Unfortunately, after spending two years on these threads (and some of these folks have been around much longer), we've seen many people with enthusiasm and excellent marketing chops set out to beat the subsidy/vanity publishing system.
I don't recall a single case in which any of them reached their sales goals or ended up happy with the results a year later. And I've seen it happen many, many times.
I truly believe their lack of sales had squat to do with their writing or marketing abilities.
The book market simply favors books with certain distribution channels that aren't possible with Tate (and other van/sub pubs).
If you become the exception, I will be nothing but thrilled for you. I sincerely hope it happens. It won't change the fact that Tate's business model is disadvantageous to authors, however.
I really wish you great success with your book. And I sincerely believe most of my fellow posters bear you the same good will.
Unfortunately, after spending two years on these threads (and some of these folks have been around much longer), we've seen many people with enthusiasm and excellent marketing chops set out to beat the subsidy/vanity publishing system.
I don't recall a single case in which any of them reached their sales goals or ended up happy with the results a year later. And I've seen it happen many, many times.
I truly believe their lack of sales had squat to do with their writing or marketing abilities.
The book market simply favors books with certain distribution channels that aren't possible with Tate (and other van/sub pubs).
If you become the exception, I will be nothing but thrilled for you. I sincerely hope it happens. It won't change the fact that Tate's business model is disadvantageous to authors, however.
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I think in a situation like this, asking people what they think would produce a range of responses, from "no problem" to "they're paying you off!"
Regardless of what others may think, I feel strongly that it would be a conflict of interest for me to accept a gift--in this case, an all-expense-paid trip--from a company I have criticized. Beyond my own personal sense that this wouldn't be ethical, it's the kind of morally murky issue that has the potential to raise all kinds of questions and problems, and it seems best to steer clear.
I've explained this a number of times to the people at Tate, but it keeps coming up; I'm not quite sure why they refuse to accept it.
As I've said numerous times, here and elsewhere, my main problem with Tate is that it is not straightforward about its fees. There's no need for me to go to Oklahoma to investigate this--it's apparent just from perusing Tate's website, where even the veiled references to fees that were there a few months ago have been removed, and a disclaimer has been added to the opening page that "We do not require any money from any of our authors for any aspect of production." This could be considered true in a strictly semantic sense, since Tate now describes its fees as being for publicity rather than for production--but it also goes a long way toward encouraging naive new writers to wrongly assume that they will not have to pay in order to be published.
If Tate stated right on its website, in unambiguous terms, that it was a fee-charging publisher, and that authors had to pay $3,990 in order to be published, I'd probably advise writers who wrote to me with questions that this was a pretty steep fee, that there were cheaper options, and that they should be aware of the potential disadvantages of paying to publish. But as long as Tate didn't encourage authors to believe it was something it's not (for instance, a "mainline" publisher) or could deliver something it couldn't (for instance, reliable bookstore presence) or does something it doesn't (for instance, invest thousands of its own dollars in every book it publishes), I would have much less of a problem with its business model.
(I'd also love to see a breakdown of what percentage of Tate's income derives from author fees and author self-purchases, and what percentage from book sales to the general public.)
I have said this over and over. MY MAIN PROBLEM WITH TATE IS THAT IT IS NOT HONEST ABOUT ITS BUSINESS MODEL ON ITS WEBSITE. Yet the folks at Tate insist on dodging that issue, instead pointing out things like what a great place Tate is to work (I'm sure it is, but that's irrelevant to the fact that Tate is not honest about its business model on its website) and asking me if I hate them because they're Christian (again, this is irrelevant to the fact that Tate is not honest about its business model on its website--well, maybe it is relevant, but let's not go there).
Bottom line, for me: Tate is not honest about its business model on its website, and I can see that all the way from Massachusetts.
I've never paid a dime for any aspect of production, distribution, or the kind of basic marketing that real publishers do (catalog listings, ARCs, trade advertising, sales force, etc.) I do spend some money on self-promotion--book plates, postage for book giveaways, travel to conventions and signings, and the like; and I do have professional expenses, such as web hosting. For my next book, I may invest in a website designer to spruce up my web presence, but I haven't yet decided; and I'm looking into the costs of a professionally-produced book trailer. All of this amounts to a few hundred dollars a year, at most. And it's all tax deductible.
Jen, I understand that the discussion here must be upsetting to you, and I appreciate your efforts to keep your cool. I truly wish you the best with your book.
- Victoria
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I did not pay a cent.
I received an advance against royalties, as well as royalties. My publisher paid an editor, a production editor, a proof reader, a compositor, a designer and an indexer.
My publisher printed the book, and got it on end-caps and tables at Barnes and Noble and other chains, got it featured at all Apple stores, and on iBooks.
The marketing and publicity departments are working with me and my co-authors to promote the book; the publisher got the first edition featured on the Atlantic Monthly site, for instance. The publisher works with us to get us to conferences. My publisher also paid to have the book in print and ebook forms translated to other languages.
My co-authors and I were each provided with 25 copies of the book, at no charge, not even shipping.
When I asked about purchasing additional copies at the author discount rate to use as giveaways, the publisher sent me more books, again at no charge.
For the second edition, I received a new advance, and have every expectation of earning additional royalties on print, online, ebook, and foreign sales.
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A.C. Crispin...Why I Don't Want to Visit Tate
Hi, Jennifer:
As Chair of Writer Beware, Tate has also invited me to come and visit them. Matter of fact, they've come perilously close to pressuring me, almost demanding that I come and visit them. They say that if Victoria and I came to visit them, at their expense, we would become Tate fans and be their biggest boosters.
I don't think so.
I don't intend to visit Tate's operation in OK for the reason Victoria already stated: Tate is not open about its business model. Authors sign with them and pay money, and few, if any, report being happy with Tate after they've received a royalty statement or two.
I've received dozens of complaints, some quite pitiful, from authors who had been convinced they were signing with a "real" publisher, only to tumble to the unhappy realization that they stood about as much chance of reaching that 5000 sales mark to be reimbursed for their outlay as they had of getting to the Moon on foot.
Tate has been at least marginally polite in most of their increasingly demanding pleas that Victoria and I come and visit them. But having seen how "strongarm" their communications can be, both with me and with their authors, I can't see any reason to put myself in the position of climbing on a plane and flying to OK to spend time with Dr. Tate and his employees.
The facts are clear: Tate doesn't disclose the "author investment" (whatever they're calling it these days) that writers must make to be published with them.
As Victoria says, that is clear from where I sit, here on the East Coast. I don't have to fly to OK to be able to see it.
As for paying for publication...no. Never. Nada. I've bought my own gas and occasionally a room for a night when attending a s.f. convention to promote a book (though these days Disney is paying for me to go to several cons, and I'm a working guest at others). I pay for my computers, printers, monitors, paper, etc...all the costs of doing business. I deduct those expenses on my tax returns.
But I've never paid. Nobody ever asked me to pay to get a book published. I've gotten paid...advances and royalties. I haven't yet broken the six figure mark on an advance...but I've come fairly close.
Jen, I, too, wish you all the best with your Tate book. I hope you will continue to be as pleased with their company in the future as you are now.
Wishing you the best of luck...
-Ann C. Crispin
Chair, Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com
-A.C. Crispin
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Price of Freedom
Disney Editions
May 17, 2011
Hi, Jennifer:
As Chair of Writer Beware, Tate has also invited me to come and visit them. Matter of fact, they've come perilously close to pressuring me, almost demanding that I come and visit them. They say that if Victoria and I came to visit them, at their expense, we would become Tate fans and be their biggest boosters.
I don't think so.
I don't intend to visit Tate's operation in OK for the reason Victoria already stated: Tate is not open about its business model. Authors sign with them and pay money, and few, if any, report being happy with Tate after they've received a royalty statement or two.
I've received dozens of complaints, some quite pitiful, from authors who had been convinced they were signing with a "real" publisher, only to tumble to the unhappy realization that they stood about as much chance of reaching that 5000 sales mark to be reimbursed for their outlay as they had of getting to the Moon on foot.
Tate has been at least marginally polite in most of their increasingly demanding pleas that Victoria and I come and visit them. But having seen how "strongarm" their communications can be, both with me and with their authors, I can't see any reason to put myself in the position of climbing on a plane and flying to OK to spend time with Dr. Tate and his employees.
The facts are clear: Tate doesn't disclose the "author investment" (whatever they're calling it these days) that writers must make to be published with them.
As Victoria says, that is clear from where I sit, here on the East Coast. I don't have to fly to OK to be able to see it.
As for paying for publication...no. Never. Nada. I've bought my own gas and occasionally a room for a night when attending a s.f. convention to promote a book (though these days Disney is paying for me to go to several cons, and I'm a working guest at others). I pay for my computers, printers, monitors, paper, etc...all the costs of doing business. I deduct those expenses on my tax returns.
But I've never paid. Nobody ever asked me to pay to get a book published. I've gotten paid...advances and royalties. I haven't yet broken the six figure mark on an advance...but I've come fairly close.
Jen, I, too, wish you all the best with your Tate book. I hope you will continue to be as pleased with their company in the future as you are now.
Wishing you the best of luck...
-Ann C. Crispin
Chair, Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com
-A.C. Crispin
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Price of Freedom
Disney Editions
May 17, 2011
[loaded question alert] I'm pretty sure I know your answers already, but this might help make the point:
To all those who report they have never paid to be published, was this true for your very first book? Or did you have to "invest" in your first titles to prove to the "big guys" you were worth their investment?
To all those who report they have never paid to be published, was this true for your very first book? Or did you have to "invest" in your first titles to prove to the "big guys" you were worth their investment?
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I have never ever paid anyone anything to be published.
I've always either had an advance and royalties contract, or a work-for-hire fee when I was ghost writing.
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You might want to read up on popular writers. No, they did not start by self-publishing or vanity/subsidy publishing and they did not have to "invest" in anything but writing well and in pursuing commercial (trade) publishing. They queried agents, publishers, or both, and were paid for their work, by way of royalties (and often advances on anticipated royalties). Some interesting examples I know personally are Brenda Novak and John Lescroart. They are worth reading about.
Of related interest, How I Got Published (Writer's Digest Press, 2007). The key is persistence, not paying someone to publish your first book.
(Publishing your own work is fine and paying someone to publish your work is fine if you know why you are making that choice and the pros, cons, and alternatives. But neither is any kind of prerequesite to commercial, royalty-paying, trade-distributed publishing.)
Oh . . . do not be taken in by the urban myths about, say, John Grisham self-publishing his first book. False. He did, however, work his tail off to sell copies of his first, commercially published, book. The rest is history.
--Ken
My first sale was a Star Trek book, Yesterday's Son, back in 1982. I was paid the standard advance, $5000.00, plus the smallish royalty rate typical for tie-in books of 2% of cover price. But the book stayed in print until about 2000, and sold about 750,000 copies by the time it finished its run (15+ printings). So in the long run, I made more than that initial 5000.00.
-Ann C. Crispin
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Price of Freedom
Disney Editions
May 17, 2011
-Ann C. Crispin
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Price of Freedom
Disney Editions
May 17, 2011
Chris knew the answer. He was simply asking the question because he thought it was important for it to be answered by someone with experience.
Or, at least, that was my take on the question. (Note how he prefixed it.)
The thing to note here is that Victoria's publisher did not ask her to spend money on marketing or ask her to pay them money.
Authors, like most professionals, have costs associated with their trade. This can range from the price of a laptop to write on to stamps to send in a hardcopy to a prospective publisher, etc.
Some authors elect to 'invest in themselves' by creating a website, doing their own mini-book tours, etc. That's just smart business.
Yep. My point was that a writer should not have to bear the financial risk taken by the publisher, and commercial publishers don't ask this of the writer. Subsidy publishers do.
I also asked because a new writer might argue that it's one thing for some of you to get end-rack displays and half-hour radio interviews at the publisher's expense, but what about those of us just starting out? I wanted (and you delivered) your responses to show that commercial publishers will do this even for the first timer.
ETA: Why would you assume the publisher's risk if you didn't have to?
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The book in my sig is my debut. My publisher decided I was worth their investment.