POV characters tries and fails...again

lorna_w · Oct 6, 2011

Your protagonist has an ongoing conflict (there's a drought. there's an evil Dark Lord. There's a gang of bullies at the school. The storm rages for days as the boat fails and the food is gone. He's in prison.). Yet not every scene can be the protag doing the same thing (or even the same sort of thing) to try and solve the problem, right? But then, every scene has to end with him in a different place/mindset.

So what can the MC change or do differently in the fictive world to make every scene different even though the bad situation stays much the same, I was thinking about this, and I started generating a list, which I'd like y'all to add to, if you have any ideas that aren't just bad luck/good luck, deus ex machina-type events. Not the stranger arriving, the weather changing, someone else setting a task for the protagonist, forbidding them an action, or any outer events, but the MC planning and trying something different each scene so that the conflict shifts.

1) The MC can, by her own efforts, learn a secret
2) The MC can win an ally
3) The MC can, through her own error, lose an ally
4) The MC can have an epiphany, triggered by some external event
5) The MC can mistake another's actions/motivations and act on this mistaken assumption
6) The MC can hunt for and find a clue (diary, treasure map, old letter, glowing ball, web browsing history, etc.)
7) MC breaks/loses important object
8) MC must choose between two beloved objects/people/values and must sacrifice one
9) MC can mistime action so that an external problem overtakes him (night, a storm, winter, the tide)
10) MC can trust the wrong person with a task or with information
11) MC can take an action while she is drunk/tired/angry/injured and thereby messing up something worse

What other general categories can you think of like this?

quicklime · Oct 6, 2011

this seems like a plot wheel creation....I guess i reject the initial premise. Suppose my dilemma is I have testicular cancer of the nostrils....not only is it horribly embarassing to have man-jewel cancer on my nose, not only does it make sunglasses sit really funny on me, but I also have an estimated 10% chance of dying....90% survival rates are great for cancer, unless you're the one with the 1 in 10 chance of dying. So, every day, I have this thing hanging over my head...or, off the front of my nose, just above my lips.

Life goes on.

I still go to work and hate my boss.
I still have sex with my wife (she just won't kiss me).
I still try to be a good dad (although it includes not going to their soccer games any more).
I garden.
I shop for new sunglasses.
I try faith-healing (I'm catholic; the priest just wants to touch my nose a lot instead of praying...)
I get chemo, and barf a lot and occasionally have chemo burns from them administering cisplatin too fast in the IV.

Cancer hangs over all of that, but there's still stuff happening. Life goes on, people keep fighting and fucking and eating and stealing. That's what makes every scene different. As for your plot wheel or grab-bag or whatever you want to call it, that feels like a more forced and artificial way to build these things than I do personally; my characters do what "makes them them", and when they get thrown into a shitstorm, they keep doing "what makes them them", although sometimes they find out they aren't the people they used to think they were when they're pushed hard enough. But they just go through the day and stuff sort of pops up, I don't pull back from the story completely to try to think up new miseries for them.....

Namatu · Oct 6, 2011

quicklime has said it well, with a lovely example.

When I read the OP, I thought, "It depends on the MC, and the situation." I'm a pantser and I don't think the actions out ahead of time. They just sort of evolve organically.

jaksen · Oct 6, 2011

I don't think that's the way I write.

Put your MC in a quandary or a predicament then let them try to get out of it, meanwhile life continues to move around them. In my case, they're usually trying to figure out some sort of puzzle or crime but that puzzle or crime isn't their entire existence. They still need to go to school/work, deal with parents/kids/coworkers, pay the bills, get the driver's license renewed, and so on and so on and so on ...

Devil Ledbetter · Oct 6, 2011

Quicklime makes a lot of sense. The overarching problem the character is dealing with will affect nearly everything he does. No need to pull events from a generic grab bag when they're arising naturally.

5) The MC can mistake another's actions/motivations and act on this mistaken assumption

This is the basis for the plot of every lame sitcom. It may work in your story, but just be sure it's not something that could be easily cleared up by a character asking a simple question of a another character instead of jumping to a buttload of stupid conclusions and acting on them.

"Who was that girl I saw leaving your house this morning?"

"That was my cleaning lady."

jjdebenedictis · Oct 6, 2011

quicklime said:
the priest just wants to touch my nose a lot instead of praying...

Now if I had some growth hanging in front of my nose, I might not have gotten so much hot chocolate on my keyboard when I read that line.

crunchyblanket · Oct 6, 2011

This is the basis for the plot of every lame sitcom. It may work in your story, but just be sure it's not something that could be easily cleared up by a character asking a simple question of a another character instead of jumping to a buttload of stupid conclusions and acting on them.

I don't disagree, but bear in mind this is also the basis of several Shakespeare plays, so it can be done well too.

sunandshadow · Oct 6, 2011

Hmm. Am I the only one who disagrees with quicklime? Structurally something like having a disease or deformity works as a complication but does not work as a main character's central dilemma because it can't be attacked directly. The guy with the nose problem would need to have some other goal that he was driving toward, taking actions toward accomplishing, in order for that to be a decent story. The little goals of everyday life are unrelated to each other and would make for an episodic, poorly-paced, structureless story.

quicklime · Oct 6, 2011

sunandshadow said:
Hmm. Am I the only one who disagrees with quicklime? certainly not at home

Structurally something like having a disease or deformity works as a complication but does not work as a main character's central dilemma because it can't be attacked directly. a number of books are written about characters coming to grips with death, dying, deformity, etc.....you can argue the central dilemma is ACCEPTING death, deformity, or whatever else, but that's sort of splitting hairs; the point is these over-arching situations can certainly be a main mover of the story, and they will color everyday life, but at the same time, life goes on, including all sorts of everyday minutae

The guy with the nose problem would need to have some other goal that he was driving toward, taking actions toward accomplishing, in order for that to be a decent story. again, lots of stories about folks dying, many on bestseller lists and I suspect more than a few of which have won various awards. The goal being to avoid or come to terms with death or whatever their mishap may be.

The little goals of everyday life are unrelated to each other and would make for an episodic, poorly-paced, structureless story. nobody said to make the story about them and ignore the central crisis to create an episodic collection of unrelated shorts. What i said was rather than try to airdrop a new situation from ten thousand feet, it is these little, episodic bits and pieces that make the big story real and engaging......the guy trying to get out of Auschwitz needs something in his story besides patrol dogs and random executions to bring that story to life, but instead of pulling "Ninja Attack!" out of a hat at random and trying to shoehorn that in, how about him wondering if his wife made it out of the ghetto the night he was taken, or befriending the guy who keeps swallowing and shitting his wedding band to keep it out of Nazi hands, or forming an uneasy friendship (or dangerous pissing match) with one of his captors....these are all episodic bits, most of life is. they are also the bits that tether the high concept to reality so it doesn't float off into the stratosphere. [/QUOTE]

jaksen · Oct 6, 2011

Devil Ledbetter said:
Quicklime makes a lot of sense. The overarching problem the character is dealing with will affect nearly everything he does. No need to pull events from a generic grab bag when they're arising naturally.

This is the basis for the plot of every lame sitcom. It may work in your story, but just be sure it's not something that could be easily cleared up by a character asking a simple question of a another character instead of jumping to a buttload of stupid conclusions and acting on them.

"Who was that girl I saw leaving your house this morning?"

"That was my cleaning lady."

This, in reference to point number 5, and when done right, can be the basis for some classic story-tellling, as in when Heathcliff (Wuthering Heights) overhears Cathy talking about him and makes a mistaken assumption, thereby setting off the events for the rest of the novel.

Procrastinista · Oct 6, 2011

Plot wheel creation? I don't think so. I like the spirit of the OP's brainstorming. Doing such an activity simply widens one's awareness of possible turning points. I remember when I first learned the power of a MC having a mentor. It was a big ah-ha moment. Will all of my MCs have a mentor? Probably not. But I will certainly consider that option and determine whether that sort of relationship will be organic and helpful to the story.

Would it be helpful for a painter to consider different shades of colors and what emotions they evoke? Absolutely. Would it be helpful for a musician to brainstorm chords that might serve as a transition from a part in one key to a part in another key? Sure. In fact, jazz has many strict guidelines, but there's lots of room to improvise within those guidelines.

Anyway, let's not derail the OP's intent. If you don't like the suggested activity, check out another thread. Personally, I'd love to see what can be added to the OP's list.

thothguard51 · Oct 6, 2011

lorna_w said:
Yet not every scene can be the protag doing the same thing (or even the same sort of thing) to try and solve the problem, right? But then, every scene has to end with him in a different place/mindset.

So what can the MC change or do differently in the fictive world to make every scene different even though the bad situation stays much the same...

From the sounds of your complaint, it appears you're mostly referring about 1st person POV. If so, then yes, 1st person is extremely limiting on what the author can show. Unless you are really-really-really good at it...

For me, 3rd person offers a greater view of a story because I am not bogged down with a single PoV showing the readers how they get from point A in the story to point Z and all the boring daily details between.

For me, 3rd person allows me to shift scenes, locations and even characters to expand the story beyond what the MC can know or experience at any time.

I also wonder why you feel a character has to be in a different place or mindset at the end of each scene. This just is not true in all cases.

In many stories, the MC sometimes is just reacting in the early stages of the story to what is thrown at them. Only later in the story do the pieces start fitting together. The reader is along for the ride and the MC or other characters are the ones who drive and show the readers the way. But that does not mean the reader gets a road map.

In fact, for me, the more the writer hides things from me, the more I want to delve into the story to see if what I am guessing is on target. Within reason that is...

Hope some of this makes sense...

quicklime · Oct 6, 2011

Procrastinista said:
Plot wheel creation? I don't think so. I like the spirit of the OP's brainstorming. Doing such an activity simply widens one's awareness of possible turning points. I remember when I first learned the power of a MC having a mentor. It was a big ah-ha moment. Will all of my MCs have a mentor? Probably not. But I will certainly consider that option and determine whether that sort of relationship will be organic and helpful to the story.

Would it be helpful for a painter to consider different shades of colors and what emotions they evoke? Absolutely. Would it be helpful for a musician to brainstorm chords that might serve as a transition from a part in one key to a part in another key? Sure. In fact, jazz has many strict guidelines, but there's lots of room to improvise within those guidelines.

Anyway, let's not derail the OP's intent. If you don't like his suggested activity, check out another thread. Personally, I'd love to see what can be added to his list.

i wasn't aware that I was crushing their activity. I mentioned I do not write that way, and why.

That is allowed here, to the best of my knowledge....

Devil Ledbetter · Oct 6, 2011

jaksen said:
This, in reference to point number 5, and when done right, can be the basis for some classic story-tellling, as in when Heathcliff (Wuthering Heights) overhears Cathy talking about him and makes a mistaken assumption, thereby setting off the events for the rest of the novel.

It's probably no coincidence that I found Wuthering Heights unreadable.

dangerousbill · Oct 7, 2011

Devil Ledbetter said:
This is the basis for the plot of every lame sitcom. It may work in your story, but just be sure it's not something that could be easily cleared up by a character asking a simple question of a another character instead of jumping to a buttload of stupid conclusions and acting on them.

But this happens in real life all the time. Sometimes a person is so angry, they won't ask the question. Sometimes they fear the answer.

Two of my uncles went off to WWII leaving a wife and a fiance behind. My grandmother loved to spy on the women, and wrote letters detailing everything she saw, often embellished.

One uncle broke off his engagement by mail and never explained to his fiance, or asked her version of the truth.

The other uncle was abusive to his wife when he returned, and by the time the full truth was revealed, the marriage was irreparably damaged.

Four lives wrecked or at least changed forever because of the failure to ask two simple questions. Why were you eating lunch with that man? Were you really traveling on business?

lorna_w · Oct 7, 2011

Procrastinista said:
Plot wheel creation? I don't think so. I like the spirit of the OP's brainstorming. Doing such an activity simply widens one's awareness of possible turning points. I remember when I first learned the power of a MC having a mentor. It was a big ah-ha moment. Will all of my MCs have a mentor? Probably not. But I will certainly consider that option and determine whether that sort of relationship will be organic and helpful to the story.

Would it be helpful for a painter to consider different shades of colors and what emotions they evoke? Absolutely. Would it be helpful for a musician to brainstorm chords that might serve as a transition from a part in one key to a part in another key? Sure. In fact, jazz has many strict guidelines, but there's lots of room to improvise within those guidelines.

Anyway, let's not derail the OP's intent. If you don't like the suggested activity, check out another thread. Personally, I'd love to see what can be added to the OP's list.

Thanks. I'm an analytical person and I like analyzing for its own sake. I learn a lot by this sort of thinking. I understand that others aren't analytical, and I don't make them wrong for it or call them "airy fairy" or their work "boring." Our minds all work differently. That's a good thing.

If you think of the examples I gave--like there's a storm and your MC is in the boat, and they only had food for a weekend, and it's gone, and the radio is out... you don't want to write a boring novel in which he keeps try the dead radio over and over, or tries to bully his wife over and over. You'd want him to try different things. Or to bully once. Cajole once. Ignore once. Blame once. Etc. You need arc. You need dynamic movement. You need for not every scene to try and do the same thing.

I was thinking about how to make that happen, consciously make it happen by choosing some scenes over others, by deleting repetition, by adding something new. And in this example, Boat Guy is not going to be going about his regular activities. They aren't going to be emailing or scrubbing the sink or reading the paper or having sex; they're going to be surviving, and desperate to do so. (I like these sorts of novels as a reader, too.)

I like analyzing. I like the Swain-Bickham sort of analytical approach, and I've learned a lot from it. I think you could take any great classic novel and analyze it in this way, too. Like, what did Oliver Twist try when he was, in effect, in the same crisis situation? Did he do the same thing every scene for 700 pages? Or did his approach shift...and what made it shift?

Sometimes, externals make things change. The stranger comes to town, and so on; this would also be a valuable list for me to invent and occasionally glance at. I have a document full of such lists--taking from several belletristic analyzers, from Egri to Aristotle to Frey to Bickham to Polti.

Any of these on the list, or any others you could add through analyzing your favorite novels could be written either in a shallow way or a profound way, of course. One could say that the plot of Romeo and Juliet was hackneyed even back then. And one could say, oh please, the two riders missing each other on the road, how trite and unlikely. But is it great literature? Imo, among the greatest.

lorna_w · Oct 7, 2011

thothguard51 said:
I also wonder why you feel a character has to be in a different place or mindset at the end of each scene. This just is not true in all cases.

Hope some of this makes sense...

Indeed it does. I'm not entirely sure the character has to be in a different place each time, but I think maybe it's better if they are. Have you looked at Swain's book? or Bickham's interpretation? Their argument on this matter says--or implies--that movement is necessary, that you can't have character try X and just fail and be in the same position, or it's not going to compel the reader to read further. This is why they offer up the disasters as "yes but" and "no, and furthermore" scenarios. Bickham: "he must leave in worse shape than when he went in." The disaster that ends each scene has to grow logically out of the character's goal, which has to grow logically out of his situation and his personality (and, if I may add from another author, his physiology, perhaps, too). A simple "no" disaster, he tried X and failed, works, but you get more of a page-turning novel if the poor MC ends up worse off and worse off and worse off...until the end when through his own actions, he figures it out, solves it, or sacrifices himself to the cause and dies.

I hope that made sense, too, lol!

paul_in_arlington · Oct 8, 2011

Bill,

Your example would make an excellent foundation of a novel, or at least a short story.

Can I steal it?

dangerousbill said:
Two of my uncles went off to WWII leaving a wife and a fiance behind. My grandmother loved to spy on the women, and wrote letters detailing everything she saw, often embellished.

One uncle broke off his engagement by mail and never explained to his fiance, or asked her version of the truth.

The other uncle was abusive to his wife when he returned, and by the time the full truth was revealed, the marriage was irreparably damaged.

Four lives wrecked or at least changed forever because of the failure to ask two simple questions....

quicklime · Oct 8, 2011

Lorna,

You're entirely free to agree or disagree with me. That said, let's look at what you have to say:

lorna_w said:
Thanks. I'm an analytical person and I like analyzing for its own sake. I learn a lot by this sort of thinking. I understand that others aren't analytical ....I'm quite analytical, which is actually why I have characters doing mundane things as well--we can discuss further below, but the analytical side of me is the part that insists on this. you can be analytical and arrive at a different conclusion, but that doesn't mean I pulled things out of my ass, or worse yet, "the ether." All chase and drama, with zero reflection, makes a Michael Bay novel. On the flip side, in It one of the characters dies thinking of old monster movies and fumbling for It's zipper in the back, and in The Regulators a teen girl keeps thinking about sex off and on as their entire neighborhood is being destroyed around them. Why? Because they're human, and people think about more than one thing at a tmie....they often DO more than one thing at a time. , and I don't make them wrong for it or call them "airy fairy" or their work "boring." Our minds all work differently. That's a good thing.

If you think of the examples I gave--like there's a storm and your MC is in the boat, and they only had food for a weekend, and it's gone, and the radio is out... you don't want to write a boring novel in which he keeps try the dead radio over and over, or tries to bully his wife over and over.probably not by page 500, but I don't want a guy who tries it once and then moves on as if the thing ceased to exist.....because I don't believe anyone would. If you have one lifeline, you go back to it, repeatedly, hoping for miracles. And then, in time, you give up. You try other things, with varying degrees of enthusiasm. Perhaps the stress makes you bully more for a time, or simply give up, and that's how you know the guy is broken, because he is starting to act against type....but to establish "type", he also needs to do it more than once, the bullying needs to be part of him. Your only other option os to resort to tell, so you can inform us he's a bully since you seem to think you should only show it a single time You'd want him to try different things. Or to bully once. Cajole once. Ignore once. Blame once. Etc. You need arc if he is doing everything once, this isn't an arc at all; it is a laundry list. simply hitting each landmark a single time and a single time only isn't really developing any arc, because you haven't had him doing anything at the start or finish often enough to establish it is any sort of pattern . You need dynamic movement yes. You need for not every scene to try and do the same thing yes also, but that doesn't bar all repetition.

I was thinking about how to make that happen, consciously make it happen by choosing some scenes over others, by deleting repetition, by adding something new. And in this example, Boat Guy is not going to be going about his regular activities. They aren't going to be emailing or scrubbing the sink or reading the paper or having sex; they're going to be surviving, and desperate to do so. (I like these sorts of novels as a reader, too.) ever see "Enemy at the Gates"? There is a pretty frenzied sex scene in a half-shelled building, because the threat of dying is there constantly. Ever see "A History of Violence"? Same there. Sometimes the mundane is exactly what grounds the character and makes the shitstorm they are in real, because if he's dodging bullets 24/7, there is nothing to contrast it to...

I like analyzing. I like the Swain-Bickham sort of analytical approach, and I've learned a lot from it. I think you could take any great classic novel and analyze it in this way, too. Like, what did Oliver Twist try when he was, in effect, in the same crisis situation? Did he do the same thing every scene for 700 pages? Or did his approach shift...and what made it shift?

Sometimes, externals make things change. The stranger comes to town, and so on; this would also be a valuable list for me to invent and occasionally glance at. I have a document full of such lists--taking from several belletristic analyzers, from Egri to Aristotle to Frey to Bickham to Polti.

Any of these on the list, or any others you could add through analyzing your favorite novels could be written either in a shallow way or a profound way, of course. certainly; we seem to disagree on what makes something profound, perhaps. One could say that the plot of Romeo and Juliet was hackneyed even back then. And one could say, oh please, the two riders missing each other on the road, how trite and unlikely. But is it great literature? Imo, among the greatest.

brainstorm away; I was explaining why I disagree with the way you are going about it...take anything you like and leave the rest.

froley · Oct 8, 2011

If I ever get lost like this or paint myself into a corner (which is rare) I just look back on the Hero's Journey to see where my protagonist is supposed to be at any given time. Or check out Save The Cat for some ideas.

I think the main thing is to not write yourself into a corner.

lorna_w · Oct 13, 2011

froley said:
If I ever get lost like this or paint myself into a corner (which is rare) I just look back on the Hero's Journey to see where my protagonist is supposed to be at any given time. Or check out Save The Cat for some ideas.

I think the main thing is to not write yourself into a corner.

It's interesting you mention the hero's journey. Again, reading through my lists in between sections of my novel, I came across the line about the hero having a talisman. And while I'm not really writing an adventure/quest novel, it made me think, hmmm, that object that I had used as just an object back in scene 15 or so, I could bring it back in scene 22 (or whatever, I don't really count them!), and she could keep it, and it could be imbued with some symbolic meaning and I can even bring it back 100000 words later and it'll be useful as that symbol again. Aha. It'll work well. It'll enhance an emotion.

This is why I find these sorts of lists so useful. It isn't that I follow them slavishly; that'd be silly. It's that while I'm working things out, I skim them, and something will pop off the page and give me an "Aha!" moment. 99 out of 100 things won't click right then. But one will, and it will improve my writing.

job · Oct 13, 2011

lorna_w said:
Your protagonist has an ongoing conflict . . . Yet not every scene can be the protag doing the same thing (or even the same sort of thing) to try and solve the problem

If there were rules on writing, one would be that you don't add scenes unless there's some useful story action going on in there.

Quite often the useful story action isn't part of the main plotline. Novel-length fiction often has a 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 16th story arc inside it.

If your main story is that the hero and heroine fall in love, the secondary stories might be that that they discover who's betraying their organization to the police; they break the hero out of jail before he gets guillotined; they cross France to warn their friends there's a traitor in their midst; they protect a child from danger.

This is not a series of cool but random events like motorcycle crashes or the loss of a wallet. Each of these is a secondary story that has a beginning, middle and end, character development, story arc, pacing, and allkindastufflikethatthere. Each secondary story relates to and supports the main story.

When we're plotting and deciding what scenes we'll write, we give precedence to the major story. We come up with secondary stories that are going to help tell the main story. We juggle in the scenes we need for those stories. A very, very few scenes -- one or two per book, maybe -- get added to tell backstory, or add atmosphere, character development, vital information and so on.

But every scene is put onstage for a defined purpose. The purpose of the scene tells us what nifty things need to be in it.

So, with luck, we don't need to look at a scene and wonder,
"What cool thing can I put in here since I'm not working on the main story arc?"
We can think,
"What cool things do I need to tell my little mini-story?"

POV characters tries and fails...again

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