The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

[Drachen Jager]

In a squad you have other guys to keep firing while you're reloading. It's next to impossible to count what you've expended, especially if you're firing on auto. You run each magazine dry. It only takes a couple of seconds to change mags, so it's really not a big deal.

Think about being stuck in the opposite position. You've been in a big firefight, switching each magazine as it reaches 10 or 15 rounds, now you go to switch mags and find you've only got half mags or smaller. That's a much worse place to be in.

[Chase]

DJ is correct, but not all combat situations are non-stop shooting. All situations are different, but many tactical instructors teach you can switch magazines (while a round remains chambered) during lulls in firing and then top off low magazines (by feel, if necessary) while you have opportunities to do so.

Of course, that's the ideal, but it keeps your weapon and whatever magazines in reserve, at full ready.

[Drachen Jager]

I guess that makes sense if you carry loose ammo. As a matter of policy we only carried ammo in magazines. I guess they figure the weight of the magazine is minimal when compared to the weight of ammunition, so you're better off carrying a couple of extra mags and not having to concern yourself with reloading.

[Chase]

Originally Posted by Drachen Jager

I guess that makes sense if you carry loose ammo. As a matter of policy we only carried ammo in magazines. I guess they figure the weight of the magazine is minimal when compared to the weight of ammunition, so you're better off carrying a couple of extra mags and not having to concern yourself with reloading.

Oh, it makes sense all right, and it has nothing to do with loose ammo. That's never a good idea. Almost all U.S. ammunition is packaged inside metal ammo cans in cloth bandoleers. For example .223 (5.56mmNATO) for the M-16 was bandoleered into 12 stripper clips, 120 total rounds, for ease of carry and reloading in the field. Each 10-round stripper clip was in a protective cardboard sleeve. No "loose" rounds.

http://www.firequest.com/AJ512.html

Other weapons systems had similar bandoleers.

[MichaelZWilliamson]

Two ten round chargers per cardboard sleeve.

Both suggestions are valid, depending on the era (philosophies change), the people and the situation. If you know you're at 5 rounds, and you expect to need suppressing fire or face a charge, then you'd swap for a fresh mag. If you have plenty of backup and a good fighting position, you change when empty. In a chaotic melee, you take your chances and hope you chose right.

Depending on weapon and shooter, some people leave a round out (29 instead of 30, 12 instead of 13 for a pistol (depending on mag capacity, of course)) to make it easier to insert with the action closed--pressing a full mag against the bolt or slide might cause it to fail to latch from the spring pressure.

[MichaelZWilliamson]

Hmm...that bandoleer seems set up for 3 chargers per cardboard/pocket.

[MoLoLu]

Wow, lots of info.

Definitely broadened my mind on the whole magazine/ammunition deal. Thanks!

[Drachen Jager]

Originally Posted by Chase

Oh, it makes sense all right, and it has nothing to do with loose ammo. That's never a good idea. Almost all U.S. ammunition is packaged inside metal ammo cans in cloth bandoleers. For example .223 (5.56mmNATO) for the M-16 was bandoleered into 12 stripper clips, 120 total rounds, for ease of carry and reloading in the field. Each 10-round stripper clip was in a protective cardboard sleeve. No "loose" rounds.

Yeah, duh.

By 'loose ammo' I meant ammo outside of magazines. Also, the question asked said nothing about it being a military application, in his case the characters may actually have loose ammo.

Please stop jumping on everything I say as though you're supergrampa to the rescue. I do know what I'm talking about.

[Chase]

Originally Posted by Drachen Jager

I do know what I'm talking about.

Ditto. And sometimes, DJ, your posts indicate quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.

[Drachen Jager]

The problem is I try to address the questions asked and give useful information, sometimes forgoing absolute truth for simplicity. You sit on your rocking chair waiting for kids to cross your lawn so you can yell at them. :P

Most of my experience is military so I do sometimes make mistakes when it comes to civilian firearms. Sometimes I get the feeling you never served in the military and that rankles with you, so you feel some sort of urge to prove yourself now with your knowledge because you couldn't prove yourself in service (and now it's too late).

FYI, when *I* started in the Army, ammunition on stripper clips was referred to as 'loose'. After switching ARs from the FAL to the C7 we were told that in the event of an actual conflict all ammunition for ARs would be provided pre-loaded into magazines.

[Chase]

Originally Posted by Drachen Jager

. . . sometimes forgoing absolute truth . . .

As usual, that's your problem, DJ. Another is the tendency to bluster ad hominem when your facts go astray.

I served ten years in the U.S. Army, most of them as a small-arms instructor and competitor with 298th and 404th MPs, 101st Airborne, and 173 Airborne Brigade.

I continued community service as a state hunter educator for 36 years and a certified NRA instructor and councilor (instructor of instructors) to date. Local muzzleloader and action steel competition doesn't allow for shooting from armchairs, so I guess that's yet another wrong guess on your part, isn't it?

Enough of your begging the question by personal attack. Real experts in areas of firearms readily admit limitations and welcome comments and discussions, including corrections. The big red flags in a lot of your so-called addressing the questions are attempts to be the absolute final authority on everything, brooking no discussion by anyone, not just me.

Well, you're not absolute by any means, DJ, and no bully techniques will keep real experts on this thread from calling 'em as we see 'em. If you think so, it's just another in a long list of wrong notions about guns and shooters.

While we're at it, your ageist biases are just as unconscionable as your former nationalistic rants. I hope whichever moderator cooled the former warns you again about the latter.

[MichaelZWilliamson]

Several (not all) methods of reloading a weapon.


En bloc clips--1895 Steyr, M91 Carcano, Garand


Chargers, also sometimes called clips. Top row, Mosin Nagant, Mauser, Lee Enfield, SKS/AK
Bottom row, Swiss K31 (stiff waxed cardboard and aluminum, also works as an emergency firestarter), M14, T99 Arisaka, M16 with loading spoon.


Loading the M16 magazine from a charger.



Detachable magazines. Top row, Ultramag .50, capacity 5 rounds, two different AK magazines in 30 and 40 rounds.
Bottom row: Ruger 10-22 rotary magazine, 10 rounds (two views) above M1 carbine 15 rounds, PPS43 35 rounds, Two different AR15/M16/STANAG magazines (US issue and aftermarket, NATO standard for all rifles).


Pistol magazines. Colt 1911 issue 7 round .45 ACP, stainless aftermarket 8 round, CZ52 7 round 7.62X25mm, Polish P64 6 round 9X18mm, Grendel P12 .380 ACP 11 round, Steyr GB 9mm 18 round (2 magazines).


Speedloaders for revolvers. 9 round for Taurus Model 94 .22LR, 6 round for Ruger Security Six .357 magnum, 7 round for Taurus Model 817 .38 Special.

Loose rounds on sling and butt for Stevens Riverside 12 gauge takedown shotgun.


Loose rounds on holster of Model 1892 Colt New Army, .38 Colt caliber.

[MichaelZWilliamson]

En blocs go into the magazine and fall out or are ejected when done. Chargers/stripper clips are either used to load an internal magazine or to refill a detachable magazine.

Detachable magazines ARE NOT CLIPS, no matter how many people call them that.

[Chase]

Originally Posted by MichaelZWilliamson

Detachable magazines ARE NOT CLIPS, no matter how many people call them that.

That's certainly true, and your photos do a good job of educating writers to the very real differences between magazines and clips.

Those who write bullets when they mean cartridges bullets, insert clips when they mean magazines, smell cordite when they mean black powder or modern smokeless gunpowder wave a huge maggie's drawers when they want their protagonist to come across as savvy with firearms.

[Cath]

Chase, knock it off. Our first rule here is 'Respect your fellow writer'. Disagree by all means, but don't make generalizations about another poster.

ETA: Drachen, you can knock off the personal comments too, please.

[AKyber36]

Originally Posted by Drachen Jager

Actually I have been corrected, I guess most autos have some kind of feature to see how many rounds remain.

Yeah it only helps when the mag is out. No it would not make much difference in a firefight, you just shoot until the mag is empty and then switch. Same with a rifle or SMG, you'd only do it during a pause in the shooting (you can quickly pop the mag to check on a pistol too if you have a few seconds).

You can tell when you've fired the last round because the action stays back, then when the new mag is inserted the action slides forward either automatically or when you hit a catch.

Awesome. Thanks for the last bit of information - I actually went to Youtube to see some videos just to verify that my belief that the "slide = the action" on a pistol was correct. It was. Very easy to see the muzzle when it finally stays back. They even showed how to check the chamber just to make sure the gun's empty. Totally remembering what the procedure's like.

I'm actually in the process of drawing out the story while also writing it, so lo and behold, depicting gun safety and getting those details like magazines (not clips) and cleaning a gun correct are even more important in visual form. Get those wrong, and I'd expect to be tarred and feathered.

[MichaelZWilliamson]

Not all weapons lock open when empty. The AK47 does not. Most American pistols do, many European ones do not. Some older and some cheaper ones do not. Most HundK rifles do not.

[AKyber36]

Originally Posted by MichaelZWilliamson

Not all weapons lock open when empty. The AK47 does not. Most American pistols do, many European ones do not. Some older and some cheaper ones do not. Most HundK rifles do not.

This is where Youtube comes in handy. So many gun vids on there - I can check to see if a specific gun does lock open when it's empty. =) Guns really do fascinate me. I want one of my own one day for self-defense and shooting range practice. The Walther P99 was a good fit for me when I tried it. Less recoil and a good size for my small hands.

[ironmikezero]

For some of those firearm designs wherein the slide/bolt doesn't stay back when the magazine is depleted, there are magazines designed to perform the same function (hold slide/bolt back) when depleted. They are usually of aftermarket manufacture and have a protrusion on the follower to engage the slide/bolt. Quality can run the gamut from excellent to worthless.

[MichaelZWilliamson]

Correct, but in most cases, the action will close if the magazine is removed. Some weapons can be aftermarket converted to remain open, by addition of a bolt latch.

[MichaelZWilliamson]

James Bond's Beretta model 418



The armorer described it as "Nice and light...in a lady's handbag."



Smith & Wesson Second Model Hand Ejector, 1916 mfr, originally in .455 Webley for the British in WWI (Enfield arsenal marks on the crane), bored for .45 Long Colt after the War. (Be advised this is my 14 year old daughter's gun.)


Tricked out Smith & Wesson Model 1905, with pearl grips, engraving and nickel.






Some antique pocket and hideout guns from around the world, 1859 and later.




Spanish made reproduction dueling pistols.

[Bing Zabriskie]

Originally Posted by MichaelZWilliamson

James Bond's Beretta model 418

The armorer described it as "Nice and light...in a lady's handbag."

Smith & Wesson Second Model Hand Ejector, 1916 mfr, originally in .455 Webley for the British in WWI (Enfield arsenal marks on the crane), bored for .45 Long Colt after the War. (Be advised this is my 14 year old daughter's gun.)

Tricked out Smith & Wesson Model 1905, with pearl grips, engraving and nickel.

Some antique pocket and hideout guns from around the world, 1859 and later.

Spanish made reproduction dueling pistols.

Whoa, that's a nice collection!

It likely also includes a gun I need. One of my guys collects a few antique handguns (he's a rogue art dealer) and he needs to kill a competitor which is destined to fail. The ammunition is preferably readily available and not too powerful.

My present reserves: Colt 1849 Pocket revolver seems too hard to load, Luger DWM 1900 & Mauser 1896 may be too powerful and not artistic enough. The S&W 1905 pearl grip is just gorgeous, but will it be a little too big to carry around in NYC even in winter?

[MichaelZWilliamson]

That's not my collection. That's my acquisitions for March.

Character, I assume. The 1905 is a small frame, 4" revolver. Easy to carry on a belt under a coat. It's .38 Special, which is about as common as ammo gets.

The engraving and pearl work were done by Wolf and Klar in Ft Worth, I believe, 1920s-1930s. Big private hardware store.

There are some beautiful Mausers and Lugers, for as much as you want to spend.

[MichaelZWilliamson]

You could also go with the nickel-plated S&W Second Model second from top on right. .38 S&W caliber. Usually not available in stores, but most ammo companies carry it. Not potent by modern standards, but enough to kill.

[Bing Zabriskie]

Thanks for the additional info, Michael.

I prefer the peal grip .38 Special. I want that guy to gloat to his intended victim (the MC) about his gun, something like "See this pearl grip and engraving? Done by Wolf and Klar in Ft Worth. Beautiful, isn't it?" The MC knows nothing about firearms. So it'd be nice to have features she can relate to while still shuddering.