Golden-word syndrome: give and take

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The Lonely One

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Wondering, there is a lot of sneering round these parts at the golden-tongued writers who think they have Midas' touch--but I also sometimes see what I would consider too many concessions to editors.

So there becomes this middle ground, and what a writer should fight for, and what s/he shouldn't. We've all read Jack London's heated letter to his editor about the use of gloves while trying to light a fire (of course relating to the famous short story of the same name). In this case, it was a factual error. But what about syntactical decisions? Aesthetic ones? How much of a say does the writer get?

I'm not suggesting one should bicker with editors over every little phrasing, because of a sense of entitlement. But what about a sense of vision? What if the editor's suggestion might upset the intentions of the author?

I think the writer should absolutely get a say in how their piece pans out, but at the same time there is the danger of overstepping into banality.

So, the question: Where do you think the writer should fall in the decision making process? Would you edit essentially anything to make a sale? Or are there certain lines you believe are worth preserving for the sake of artfulness? Maybe some of you could share stories about good and or bad publishing experiences (no throwing names under the bus, though, please, just general replies).

Anyway, just something I've always worried about in my own experience. I have pulled a piece only once, a short story, because the journal wanted far too many changes, essentially restructuring the story entirely. I didn't agree and figured it was better to move on while politely thanking them for their time.

Otherwise I've found I'm okay with edits, but occasionally feel an editor injecting their own "style" into my piece, which I think is bad editing. This upsets me, but if they're stubborn and the change is small, I'm likely to concede.

Anyway, go.
 

quicklime

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I guess so long as you're happy with taking the risk of being rejected then, and I"m not saying that is a bad thing, you should follow your conscience. But it is a free market; you can't always expect or make the editor do so; you're providing product and it may be nice to talk about "artistic creativity, free and unfettered" the reality is that an agent/editor is making a choice to invest in your product or not, and if it doesn't meet their wants they are free to keep shopping as well.

So, I guess I'm thinking go with your conscience, wherever the line lies, so long as you don't believe they "owe you" that they see the same way. nothing wrong with integrity, but sometimes it does come with a price. its one thing to accept that, and another to pretend it should not.

is this happening to you now, or just spitballing?
 

Mharvey

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Right now, I'd do anything an editor recommended, swallowing my pride all the way, unless the editor just asks for something so outlandish that I have to imagine he's on drugs. Like: "Yeah rewrite the second half of your book, kill off all the characters, and make the ending sad because sad endings are hot right now." ... I'd be like: "Yeah, no. See ya."

When my name actually starts having drawing power (here's hoping anyway), then I'd feel a little more confident asserting myself all the while keeping a mental track record. If it does seem like, every time I take an editor's suggestion, my piece winds up being better for it, I'd probably trust him to the point where no matter how big I got, I'd take his suggestion.
 

Devil Ledbetter

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I think you can disagree with an editor without it being "golden words."

To me, golden words means you can't cope with any criticism whatsoever, and you lash out at whomever fails to recognize your utter brilliance.
 

Brickcommajason

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It's a business decision. When my editors say "change this" I either

a) Change it
b) Point out, politely, that the editor made a factual error (for example, the editor in a recent home improvement piece who said my measurements were off..because that editor didn't understand that 2x4s aren't actually 2 by 4).
c) Point out, politely, why my style choice is better.

If the editor disagrees with b or c, see a.

There will come a day when I have the reputation and following to insist that my work remains pure, pristine, just my way.

Today is not that day. Today, I focus on eating, sleeping indoors, that sort of thing.
 

Mr Flibble

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The editor/writer relationship is not a one way dictatorship. It's a partnership, with the aim of making the book as good as it can be.

Editors make suggestions. You either agree and change, or don't and don't. I've changed a lot of stuff, and sometimes (not often) I couldn't/wouldn't and explained why. I think if I can explain why a thing needs to be so in my opinion, then it's opening up a dialogue where the editor and I can come to terms.

I was once asked (for one of the books in my sig) to make a significant change. A Very Big Change. I talked to my writers' group about it - I felt if I changed it, it sort of negated the reason I wrote the book in the first place.

The editor said they'd take it either way, but would I try for the change? She had sound reasons for it, and I could see, completely, why she asked. So I gave it a go. Kinda grudgingly. It meant pretty much rewriting the last third of a book. And that rewrite gave me the ending that has most satisfied me in any book I've written. I'm glad I at least gave it that go, because the book was so much stronger.

Editors aren't trying to destroy your story. Well, the good ones anyway. Their suggestions aren't set in stone. They ARE a good source of things to think about. But if you have any issues with editorial suggestions, then talk to the editor.

There will, perhaps, be issues you can't resolve. But mostly, editors just want the best book possible and they are trying to help you achieve that.
 

Drachen Jager

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If the editor is good, and you take a good, hard look at their comments you will almost certainly see how most, if not all of the edits would significantly improve your manuscript. If you can't see that then either:

A) You have golden word syndrome.

or

B) The editor does not mesh with you.

Honestly though I've had editorial feedback from agents and one top editor, and I've agreed with almost everything they've said (except for the one character who was supposedly 'lifted' whole-cloth from an anime TV series I've never even seen. <grumble>). They are professionals after all and their jobs are dependent on their eye for these sorts of detail.

Did I do everything the editor suggested? No.... I did less, and more. Some areas were only tweaked, but other parts of my manuscript were gutted and re-written from scratch even though it was not directly mentioned by the editor, it just turned out that one major plot change fixed a half-dozen comments and addressed a problem I'd had with the manuscript but been unable to come to grips with previously.
 

bearilou

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I think you can disagree with an editor without it being "golden words."

To me, golden words means you can't cope with any criticism whatsoever, and you lash out at whomever fails to recognize your utter brilliance.

What Devil said. Any instance I've seen of GWS has been someone who completely melts down when someone gave criticism of their work, clearly not understanding their vision and their genius and that the critter has a serious case of jealous-itis.
 

leahzero

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There will come a day when I have the reputation and following to insist that my work remains pure, pristine, just my way.

I hope I never see that day.

I'll always be able to learn and improve as a writer up until the very last word I ever write. I may not always agree with editorial feedback, but I hope I always receive it.
 

BethS

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I think writers should definitely stand up for what matters. In the end, it's your name on the story.

That said, there is such a thing as picking your battles.

I had a less than happy experience with an editor once, but I won't go into details here. Suffice it to say that I learned from it. :)
 

The Lonely One

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is this happening to you now, or just spitballing?

Naw, just spitballing. I mean, it has happened, but I'm usually alright with suggested edits. I know others can potentially see flaws I've missed in my writing, and I do appreciate that. But I was just curious, as it seems when publishing was more in its hayday, novelists and writers could be a little more bold and get away with it (I mean with their approach to editing). Maybe that's just because who I'm thinking of were big names.
 

Mr Flibble

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There will come a day when I have the reputation and following to insist that my work remains pure, pristine, just my way.

that's the day you need to get your head right out of your own arse

I mean that

The day you think everything you write is gold, is the day you stop trying to learn

The day you become an 'I know better than everyone!' arsewipe

Don't look for that day.

Don't be that fuckwit
 

jjdebenedictis

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If I don't believe it will improve the piece (or at least not hurt it), I wouldn't make the change.

But, that said, I would be very leery of dismissing the suggestions of a publishing professional.

I'd probably email back and say, "Can you explain why that makes it better? I need to understand."
 

swvaughn

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Don't be that fuckwit Anne Rice

Fixed that for ya. :D

And in case you need a point of reference (warning: bad words abound)

But really, Julia's spot-on. Everyone needs a fresh pair of eyes, no matter how big and best-selling. Editors are good for you. Like cornflakes.
 

The Lonely One

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Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that editors don't have valuable input, but more that writers do, too. Guess it's the difference between being humble and being a sell-out, in my mind.

I think sometimes writers have a habit of underselling their own abilities or talents, as much as some others are full of themselves.
 

kuwisdelu

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Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that editors don't have valuable input, but more that writers do, too. Guess it's the difference between being humble and being a sell-out, in my mind.

I think sometimes writers have a habit of underselling their own abilities or talents, as much as some others are full of themselves.

I think that writers that "sell out" do so long before their agent or editor ever gives them comments. I can't think that many reputable editors would ask for changes that so dramatically change a novel such that it could be described as "selling out." They're going to make suggestions they think are best for the book. Arguing over a few bits of possibly purple prose is a far, far cry from saying "hey, vampires are hot, why don't you make him a vampire instead of a farm boy?" (Okay, not applicable anymore, but you get my point I think.)
 

Shadow_Ferret

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I've never been in this situation. I'd like to be. Personally, I've come to realize I have a tin ear when it comes to my own writing and I'd be more than willing to take the advice and suggestions an editor makes, especially if they have a proven, successful track record.
 

Richard White

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Pretty much my only run in with an editor (so far) was over a short story I was doing for a Star Trek anthology. I received my line-by edits and was going through when the editor-in-chief called me to see how they were coming along.

Well, Marco, I agree with 99% of the suggestions, but I have a bit of a problem here.

Really?

Yeah - there are certain words I'm trying to capitalize and she's marking them lower case. That's just not right.

Why is that?

Well, after 15 years in the Army, I know these words are capitalized when they're spelled out. It's just the way they're done.

Rich, that's your problem. They're capitalized in the Army. They're not capitalized in Starfleet. You're right in real life, but that's our house style and I'd appreciate it if you'd follow it.

(oops.)

NO problem, Marco. Have those out later today.
 

gothicangel

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But I was just curious, as it seems when publishing was more in its hayday, novelists and writers could be a little more bold and get away with it (I mean with their approach to editing). Maybe that's just because who I'm thinking of were big names.

I don't think it's a case of 'getting away' with anything.

Writers like Rosemary Sutcliff and Angela Carter wrote in a highly stylised way. That was their voice and it worked [and readers still love them for it twenty years after they have died.]
 

Terie

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Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that editors don't have valuable input, but more that writers do, too. Guess it's the difference between being humble and being a sell-out, in my mind.

I think sometimes writers have a habit of underselling their own abilities or talents, as much as some others are full of themselves.

Seriously? Do you think publishers would contract work from writers if they didn't think that writers' work had value? This makes it sound as if you think editors think they're gods or dictators or something. And it's just not like that.

Oh and as a perfect example of Golden-Word Syndrome: I had a stepmother once who equated editing with rape. Funny enough, she's never been published.
 

Al Stevens

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My experiences with editors wanting changes has been mostly good with one major exception that turned into a train wreck. But because that was for a computer programming book, it might not be applicable here. I'll tell that tale another time.

Leon Uris's "Battle Cry," is written in two parts. The first part is in 3rd person narrative omni POV. The second part is in 1st person, with a Marine sergeant's POV.

When Uris subbed, an editor wanted Uris to rewrite the second part to make the book's narrative style consistent. Uris refused. I do not recall whether he prevailed with that publisher or went elsewhere, but the result was a best-seller.

Someone might say, "He was Leon Uris. He could do what he wanted. We don't have that option."

Not so. "Battle Cry" was Uris's first novel. He was an unknown prior to its publication. He believed in his work and stuck to his guns.

The scene in "Jaws" in which the sea captain has a brief affair with the sheriff's wife is unnecessary, unbelievable, and adds nothing to the story or the characters. I often wondered whether Benchley added it because an editor insisted that for marketing purposes the book needed at least one sex scene.

"Jaws" was Benchley's first novel.
 

Al Stevens

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Oh and as a perfect example of Golden-Word Syndrome: I had a stepmother once who equated editing with rape. Funny enough, she's never been published.
The editor at the magazine where I worked said that some contributing writers reacted as though she had "painted a mustache on their Mona Lisa."
 
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