Silly question about 'license'...

[ShannonR.]

I know this is a really stupid question, but I thought of it when I was watching movies with my husband.

How accurate to we have to be when we're writing? How much 'creative license' would someone be able to get away with in the eyes of producers and viewers? I'm not at all suggesting that we shouldn't research our topics or that we should outright lie, but does it matter if we miss a detail for the sake of the story? Details your average person might not be bothered by?

I'm thinking of details your average person might not notice or be bothered by. For instance, my story takes place in the fashion industry. The main character is about 22 and her sister is a model...I thought of having the model be her older sister by three years, but I've since learned on another forum that most fashion models don't make it past their teens or early twenties. So a 25-year-old model just 'wouldn't happen', but I don't think a lot of people would really know that unless they've worked in the industry (like the person who told me this). I was also told that models are usually considered to be total idiots, so a designer noticing a model's talent for designing would simply never happen. But it works in the story...I myself wouldn't be bothered by a movie missing little-known details, but I'm not a professional screenwriter.

What about you? Are you bothered by minor or little-known details being 'fudged' for the sake of a story? Are producers?

Thanks! I know I probably ask too many questions and annoy you...thanks for indulging a newbie!

[WriteKnight]

There are plenty of things, that drive experts crazy. If a story takes place within a profesional's world - you can bet they'll be ticked off at the creative license. Cops, Lawyers, Doctors, EMT's, hell even FILMMAKERS hate it when the story get's the details WRONG WRONG WRONG! ( You can't get a DNA result in ten minutes!!!!!) But honestly, most people don't give a flying doughnut. Is the overall 'truth' getting through? Okay - sure, it takes weeks to perform this investigation, and they do it in... like a day... whatever. There is an accepted shorthand in story telling. Part of that is compression of time. Another part of it is the 'greater truth'.

So, is the element that big a deal? Does the plot fall apart without it? These are the things that you need to ask yourself.

Hitchcock had a term for something he called "The Regrigerator Moment". This is a hole in the plot, that is big enought to drive a truck through - but the story carries you along so completely - you don't even REALIZE it, until after you get home, go to bed, get out of bed, go down to the refrigerator, pull out a snack and then all of a sudden you think, "Hey, wait a minute! Why didn't they just call the cops first?!?!" Or some such point. (The Dragon needs a virgin, and you want to rescue her? There's a really EASY way to do that...)

I'm reading a series of books - and there are a number of problems that have intruded to bother me. The magic worker flies up to the edge of the atmosphere to see the stars.... no mention of the fact that its like fifty two degrees BELOW zero, or that there's damn near no oxygen, or any other practical aspect. As a pilot, it bothers me... but I let it go, because it's working for me. When I read a book that's got real problems with the horse work, or the armor or swordplay - sure, it bother's me... but I keep reading.

We all subscribe to a willing suspension of disbelief. That's part of the price of admission. But you should be true to the world you create. If your character is 'too old' to be a model - then make that a point of the story. "She's too old. Can't believe she gets away with being on the runway. She's about to lose her position..." Whatever. Make the point work. Better to incorporate the flaw, than to ignore it... is my method or working around it.

[Nymtoc]

Originally Posted by WriteKnight

There are plenty of things, that drive experts crazy. If a story takes place within a profesional's world - you can bet they'll be ticked off at the creative license....

We all subscribe to a willing suspension of disbelief. That's part of the price of admission. But you should be true to the world you create. If your character is 'too old' to be a model - then make that a point of the story. "She's too old. Can't believe she gets away with being on the runway. She's about to lose her position..." Whatever. Make the point work. Better to incorporate the flaw, than to ignore it... is my method or working around it.

Good points.

I am invariably turned off when I read or watch something that gets facts wrong in an area where I have some expertise. It makes me lose interest in the entire book or film. So I do think it's important to get things right. As WriteKnight says, you may be able to use the "wrongness" of your material to your advantage.

A physician friend of mine told me about going to see a movie that included a scene of doctors looking at an X-ray. It was a serious movie, but he and several others in the audience laughed. The reason: the X-ray was upside down.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Nymtoc

I am invariably turned off when I read or watch something that gets facts wrong in an area where I have some expertise.

Me, too. Get something wrong with firearms or motorcycles and I'll drop the story faster than my no-brother-good-inlaw's invitation to Thanksgiving.

If Wikipedia can tell the difference between a pan and a shovel (and my guess is most of you don't know), a simple google should provide all of the info needed.

It makes the author look lazy.

[talking to myself]

The internet has taken this discussion to a whole new level. Ever go out to www.imdb.com? People there absolutely go nuts over every little detail they consider to be wrong. Something like that can kill a book, movie, what have you, just by the buzz. I'd watch it if I were you - if there's a "hole" in your work just be sure to give a believable reason for it. Or you can really get slammed (online at least; where unfortunately real life seems to have vacated to these days...)

[ShannonR.]

Originally Posted by The Tourist

Me, too. Get something wrong with firearms or motorcycles and I'll drop the story faster than my no-brother-good-inlaw's invitation to Thanksgiving.

If Wikipedia can tell the difference between a pan and a shovel (and my guess is most of you don't know), a simple google should provide all of the info needed.

It makes the author look lazy.

WhiteKnight, you just gave me a *perfect* plot idea! Thanks!
And Tourist, you would get along very well with my gun-collector husband!

I personally don't mind if some license is taken provided it's not done in a disrespectful or mean-spirited way. Sometimes I even find it funny. However, I've had friends who didn't like 'Spaceballs' because Mel Brooks *dared* to make fun of a 'sacred cow' and/or hated the recent Star Trek remake because it was too much of a stretch for someone of Kirk's low rank being allowed to take control of a ship during an emergency. I seem to be more easygoing about stuff like that than they are?

[nmstevens]

Originally Posted by ShannonR.

I know this is a really stupid question, but I thought of it when I was watching movies with my husband.

How accurate to we have to be when we're writing? How much 'creative license' would someone be able to get away with in the eyes of producers and viewers? I'm not at all suggesting that we shouldn't research our topics or that we should outright lie, but does it matter if we miss a detail for the sake of the story? Details your average person might not be bothered by?

I'm thinking of details your average person might not notice or be bothered by. For instance, my story takes place in the fashion industry. The main character is about 22 and her sister is a model...I thought of having the model be her older sister by three years, but I've since learned on another forum that most fashion models don't make it past their teens or early twenties. So a 25-year-old model just 'wouldn't happen', but I don't think a lot of people would really know that unless they've worked in the industry (like the person who told me this). I was also told that models are usually considered to be total idiots, so a designer noticing a model's talent for designing would simply never happen. But it works in the story...I myself wouldn't be bothered by a movie missing little-known details, but I'm not a professional screenwriter.

What about you? Are you bothered by minor or little-known details being 'fudged' for the sake of a story? Are producers?

Thanks! I know I probably ask too many questions and annoy you...thanks for indulging a newbie!

You see, this is really part of a much broader question. Many writers, and I include myself, will choose to create characters who have professions that we don't necessarily know very much about. Doctors, lawyers, therapists, engineers, publishers, fashion models -- or whatever.

That's fine. Otherwise, we'd all just be writing stories about screenwriters or aspiring screenwriters or temps or whatever our literal professions happened to be which, let's be honest, aren't necessarily apt fodder for many stories.

We often want to write stories that are dramatic and exciting and involve danger and life and death decisions -- so it's not surprising that we find ourselves creating characters whose jobs take them into those kinds of environments. Trial lawyers, cops, soldiers -- whatever.

But now you've got a job to do. You have to find out how those people actually do their jobs, presuming you don't have any first-hand experience with them.

Now, it may very well be that, in the course of telling your cop story, you're going to fudge some things. How many times have you seen that beat when someone who's done something heroic gets a promotion? That just doesn't happen in police departments -- none that I've ever heard of. That is, merit promotion. You crack that big case and you get promoted. No. It's seniority and you have to pass an exam, and someone above you has to move up so that there's an opening. Then whoever is next in line gets the promotion. Period.

But guess what? When I was writing a cop thing and I needed some rookie cop to get a promotion for the sake of the story -- he got the merit promotion.

But in a larger sense, it's important to know how things work in whatever realm you're writing in. How do things work in a squad room? How do things work in a modelling agency? What is the relationship between models and the people who are designing the clothes? How do they interact? When do they interact?

The phrase, of course, is "write what you know" -- but the advice is to "know what you write" -- do the research. Especially if you're placing a story in a very specific professional world, you are bound to do your own due diligence in finding out how people in that world work, live, speak, act, think.

That is -- you can't just watch a few movies or TV shows that take place in the world that you want to place your story in and think that that's going to do it. Those movies are creating their own fictional worlds based on the real world.

You have to do your own work, go to the source, if you're serious. Talk to some real people about their real experiences in this world and get a sense of what it's actually about.

When you make a choice about fudging something -- whether it's the age of a model or whatever -- that's what it should be. A conscious choice that you should make for dramatic purposes.

What you should never do is simply make a mistake because you haven't done your work and don't know how something is actually done in the world that you're writing.

Oh, and also -- if you're going to fudge something, it shouldn't be something that is really critical. Like something that your entire story hinges on -- but it's dead wrong.

Like that movie Double Jeopardy about that woman who was convicted for killing her husband and then got out of jail and it turns out that he was actually still alive -- and then, presumably she can now legally kill her husband because you can't be convicted twice for the same crime.

No. Dead wrong. All indictments indicate a crime committed at a particular time and place. When you're found guilty, you're found guilty not of some crime like "killing your husband" just any old time and place -- but of doing it at that time in that place -- they find you guilty of the specific charges of the indictment.

If the guy's alive, then you were wrongly convicted. But that doesn't mean that if you kill the same guy at a different time and place they can't bring you to trial on a different indictment listing a different time and place.

They sure can. And they would.

So there are some things that you really should not get wrong.

And I'm afraid I've simply gone on about a pet peeve that has very little to do with your question.

NMS

[Stijn Hommes]

I've recently learned that there are people with expert knowledge on fonts, who tear their hair out at supposed period movies that have fonts in their newspapers, store signs, etc that wouldn't have existed in the actual period.

You can't please everyone, but it helps if you stick to the conventions of the genre you're writing in. Stay close to the facts in a murder mystery; you have a bit more leeway in a romantic comedy.

[ShannonR.]

nmstevens, thanks. I've been doing a lot of research and seeing that there are a few different tracks a character can take and be believable, and other details that really aren't critical to the story. Perhaps if you can make a story compelling enough, you could probably get away with fudging small details? And I saw that movie too, I know what you mean!

I wonder if it's 'more permissible' if you get smaller things wrong when dealing with things that aren't widely known? I would definitely not try to get by without at least trying to get things right, but perhaps some things are easier to suspend disbelief about?


Hommes I know people like that too and tbh I sometimes hate watching movies with them! Or, people who sit there and correct the movie the whole time you're watching it.

[frimble3]

Originally Posted by ShannonR.

I'm thinking of details your average person might not notice or be bothered by. For instance, my story takes place in the fashion industry. The main character is about 22 and her sister is a model...I thought of having the model be her older sister by three years, but I've since learned on another forum that most fashion models don't make it past their teens or early twenties. So a 25-year-old model just 'wouldn't happen', but I don't think a lot of people would really know that unless they've worked in the industry (like the person who told me this). I was also told that models are usually considered to be total idiots, so a designer noticing a model's talent for designing would simply never happen. But it works in the story...I myself wouldn't be bothered by a movie missing little-known details, but I'm not a professional screenwriter.

I don't know if you could say 'just industry insiders' would know this, not these days. There's a lot of fashion industry shows on TV these days, including one I saw about a guy who goes around helping stuggling small town modelling agencies, and the first thing he does is groan about the 'older' models. 'Older' in a model is like 'fat' in a model, not judged by real-world scales. And if your story is about the fashion industry, you can surmise that your readers are going to be heavy on the people who watch those fashion shows, and know at least some of the basic stuff.

Originally Posted by WriteKnight

But you should be true to the world you create. If your character is 'too old' to be a model - then make that a point of the story. "She's too old. Can't believe she gets away with being on the runway. She's about to lose her position..." Whatever. Make the point work. Better to incorporate the flaw, than to ignore it... is my method or working around it.

I'm with WriteKnight, make it a plot point. And maybe make her a little younger? If the MC is 22, make her sister just a year older, and have other models whisper about her. Or, could the MC be 20 and the sister 22?
As for models not being respected for their design talent, that's more easily believed, IMO. There's always that random chance that someone in a position to help might notice this particular model's designs.

[Stijn Hommes]

Originally Posted by ShannonR.

Hommes I know people like that too and tbh I sometimes hate watching movies with them! Or, people who sit there and correct the movie the whole time you're watching it.

I know we're not on a first name basis, but feel free to call me Stijn. Using my last name just looks weird.

[jjdebenedictis]

It recently came out that Agyness Deyn lied about her age (portraying herself as younger than she was) in order to launch her (spectacularly successful) modelling career. Could you have your character's sister doing something similar?

As a way to show this fact to the audience, perhaps have the older sister anxiously hassling her younger sister for tips on how to "act young", since the elder needs to portray herself as more immature than she really is.

[ShannonR.]

Thanks, I might just do that re: model lying about her age. I also have the designer and the model dating (which may or may not happen in real life), and perhaps she will be using him to 'stay in the game'...I'm told that designers do hand-pick their models, so that might work.

Oooh, and at the end, the model and her sister get into this *huge* fight. Maybe I can have the sister throw the model's age in her face!
Thanks again!

[dwriter68]

I don't see why you could not use any of the elements you've mentioned. I believe it has nothing to do with reality but with what makes your character unique, what gives your character its traits. No two situations are alike and every person is an individual. Exploit that uniqueness in your character and that is what will make her stand out from the crowd. Her struggle to show that even in her mid 20s and secretly talented she can choose to be a fashion model and climb up the designer ladder.
In the case of your story unless you are acquainted with the ins of modeling I don't see how that minor detail would kill the believability of your plot, especially if you make a point to show how your character surviving and succeeding against all odds.

[ShannonR.]

Well the model isn't really the main character, the sister is. I mentioned this general idea and the first thing I was told was, no the model's way too old. That was before i got much of the rest of the plot out! There are a lot of parts of the industry that I've fudged a bit after learning about them, but they were things that were more 'backdrop' or segued into other, more important scenes. Could I do more minor details (like how many models are in a photo shoot or whether a magazine actually has a particular issue) in montage form? So it's not on the screen for that long? Or am I just being silly?

[nmstevens]

Originally Posted by ShannonR.

Well the model isn't really the main character, the sister is. I mentioned this general idea and the first thing I was told was, no the model's way too old. That was before i got much of the rest of the plot out! There are a lot of parts of the industry that I've fudged a bit after learning about them, but they were things that were more 'backdrop' or segued into other, more important scenes. Could I do more minor details (like how many models are in a photo shoot or whether a magazine actually has a particular issue) in montage form? So it's not on the screen for that long? Or am I just being silly?

My advice on those sorts of things is to do the research you can on these minor issues, try to get it right to the extent that it doesn't interfere with your story -- and then when you have a finished draft, see if you can find a "beta reader" -- that is, somebody who knows the subject first hand who'd be willing to go through it and make sure that the technical stuff is correct and, when it's not, to offer alternatives that will make it sound and feel right.

I've done this on occasion when I've had medical stuff (my neighborhood is full of doctors) and legal stuff. The medical stuff was pretty close to being on the mark -- my neighbor just suggested a difference in the way something was referred to. The legal stuff -- it would have changed too much and since the script was a sort of over-the-top comedy, I really didn't care if the legal stuff in question was right. Only that it was funny.

So you get somebody to let you know if it's right -- and also if it's wrong, just how wrong it is. Is it just a little bit wrong or egregiously embarrassingly wrong.

It's like stuff in science fiction films. Is it "hearing stuff in space" wrong -- who cares? Or is it like Red Planet where the whole movie is just a testament to violating the laws of physics, biology and drama.

NMS