Where to put all that history?

Pikabuddy · May 14, 2012

First off, if there's a thread on this already, I apologize.

Alright, so I'm kind of in a predicament here. I have the history of my world, which needs to be explained at some point in order to truly understand the conflict that is going on in my book. It's in no way a boring history class (but definitely needs some polishing), and its ~2.5k words.

Is there really any way to avoid this mega info-dump? The way I have it, it's in between two major events in the story, and kind of goes along with the setting as well (the MC is on a week voyage across the sea and has nothing to do). I can't break it up over time , as I already have other necessary information knitted in chapters where it could go.

But I've always been told not to clump so much information together, so I'm not sure what to do.

As a side note, this storytelling happens after the reader has gotten to know the MC, and is nowhere near the beginning of the story. Not sure it matters too much, though.

Thanks!

Kerosene · May 14, 2012

Prequel?

I have the same problem. After 3 books, stories shared and whatnot, I'm still planning a trilogy prequel.

You can have characters tell stories from personal experience.
Some information isn't needed, many people hate each other from the accumulation of memories.
You could start earlier and work into it.

One thing I have to say. Please do not do flashbacks. They confuse the reader and some can be more entertaining than the real story.

What I did was based a entire religion on sharing stories and learning from the--stemmed from that, I made a human chronicler who collected these stories and the MC can talk to him as she wishes.

WildScribe · May 14, 2012

Can it be dropped into conversation and observation piece by little piece throughout the book? I know that the temptation is to tell it as a cohesive part of history, but if you do it in small pieces throughout, it can come across as natural and simply part of the world... if done well.

Pikabuddy · May 14, 2012

Thank you for responding, WillSauger.

Well, what I'm asking is where to put an info dump this large, and if where it is now is acceptable. I might write a prequel later, but for now, this history needs to be explained to the MC so that the conflict that affects all inhabitants is more clear. Maybe along the lines of Tolkien's Shadow of the Past in the Fellowship of the Ring.

@WildScribe

It would be extremely difficult, if not downright confusing, to do that, as there is already tons of those types of conversations and observations on other things in my world. Do you think it would be okay to put that history where I have it? I mean, you could probably read it in about 10-15 minutes, and the story picks up pace pretty quickly afterwards.

Rolkus · May 14, 2012

My adventurers journey across the land, and anything significant, I add as they arrive to the area.

Like you I've got a rich history in the world, much of it is brought in through the story, but the way I see, if I cant bring it in the story, it's probably not worth being there.

RichardGarfinkle · May 14, 2012

Does it all need to be together at one place in the book?

Can you break the history up so that it is enountered piece by piece in its consequences.

History leaves marks and scars on terrain, as well as in the names of places, in the memories of people and so on.

This allows for short questions to be answered which together over time give your history.

Questions like, "why is this palace so fortified and why does that wall look like it was knocked over by a drunken dragon?"

For real world examples:
"why is this town called Battlecreek?"

"Who are Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln and why do they have so many streets and towns named after them?"

If you do need to put it all in one place, can you do it religiously? Many ceremonies involve recitations of sacred history.

Kerosene · May 14, 2012

Pikabuddy said:
Thank you for responding, WillSauger.

Well, what I'm asking is where to put an info dump this large, and if where it is now is acceptable. I might write a prequel later, but for now, this history needs to be explained to the MC so that the conflict that affects all inhabitants is more clear. Maybe along the lines of Tolkien's Shadow of the Past in the Fellowship of the Ring.

Then create a system of how the history can come out.

Actually make it history. My MC was looking into the past, that was well known. So it was "History" to the world and she made the connections as she needed.

Other than that, it's through spoken word. Have another character who was in the past to talk about it.

2,500 words isn't bad. I think, if you needed, you could crop that down to 1000 words and tell it through a story by someone. That wouldn't be an info dump. But you would have to create a reason for why the storyteller would be telling and why the person would ask at all.

Or you can just start earlier. I've seen this happens rarely, but does add a nice sense of depth.

Pikabuddy · May 14, 2012

@Richard

The only problem is that I already do enough of this as the MC travels across the world, asking history of more specific places, cultures, and characters.

Maybe I should rephrase this a little. What I'm trying to lay out is the core of all history. The beginning of life; the beginning of evil. Gods and such. The conflict that started other conflicts, and where the MC is in the middle of it all, thousands of years later.

And the problem is, the MC needs to know before a certain point in the story (a little over halfway through), or the story will begin to not make sense.

Kerosene · May 14, 2012

Pikabuddy said:
And the problem is, the MC needs to know before a certain point in the story (a little over halfway through), or the story will begin to not make sense.

Repressed dreams!

Haha! I have found the answer.

Have the MC begin each chapter with a dream and dating back to his traumatic past. Just make is OVERLY apparent that he's in a dream or completely cut off the two parts.

thothguard51 · May 14, 2012

Not all of the history the writer creates for his/her world needs to come out to the reader. The reader only needs to know what is relevant for each story, as needed.

WildScribe · May 14, 2012

thothguard51 said:
Not all of the history the writer creates for his/her world needs to come out to the reader. The reader only needs to know what is relevant for each story, as needed.

Agree. If it never comes up logically in the story, then maybe it's important for you to know, but not so much for your reader to know.

RichardGarfinkle · May 14, 2012

Pikabuddy said:
@Richard

The only problem is that I already do enough of this as the MC travels across the world, asking history of more specific places, cultures, and characters.

Maybe I should rephrase this a little. What I'm trying to lay out is the core of all history. The beginning of life; the beginning of evil. Gods and such. The conflict that started other conflicts, and where the MC is in the middle of it all, thousands of years later.

And the problem is, the MC needs to know before a certain point in the story (a little over halfway through), or the story will begin to not make sense.

Religion and ceremony or spiritual revelation might be your best bets here. One of the advantages of such a revelation is that along with revealing the history to the character, it can show the character in internal crises confronting this deep core of his world's truth.

If you want to, you can dress this up as the prize for overcoming some challenge or proving his worth etc. Done properly the reader can actually be pleased that the MC has earned the info-dump.

Xelebes · May 14, 2012

Put it in poetic form.

Ingblot begat Merdogor
Merdogor begat Mannenblot
Mannenblot slew Merdogor
Mannenblot brothered Winonblad
Winonblad slew Mannenblot

etc.

Should reduce it to a few hundred words.

Dancre · May 14, 2012

I would just blend it in with the characters, have them moving through your world. If there's a religion of some sort, then have them worshipping their diety. Stuff like that.

Pikabuddy said:
First off, if there's a thread on this already, I apologize.

Alright, so I'm kind of in a predicament here. I have the history of my world, which needs to be explained at some point in order to truly understand the conflict that is going on in my book. It's in no way a boring history class (but definitely needs some polishing), and its ~2.5k words.

Is there really any way to avoid this mega info-dump? The way I have it, it's in between two major events in the story, and kind of goes along with the setting as well (the MC is on a week voyage across the sea and has nothing to do). I can't break it up over time , as I already have other necessary information knitted in chapters where it could go.

But I've always been told not to clump so much information together, so I'm not sure what to do.

As a side note, this storytelling happens after the reader has gotten to know the MC, and is nowhere near the beginning of the story. Not sure it matters too much, though.

Thanks!

Dancre · May 14, 2012

yeah, what Richard said. I learn about the early church by attending church. so maybe your character can learn religion from a priest or from an old lady who rolls it out like a scroll. I wouldn't dump it in one great big lump, but roll it out slowly.

RichardGarfinkle said:
Religion and ceremony or spiritual revelation might be your best bets here. One of the advantages of such a revelation is that along with revealing the history to the character, it can show the character in internal crises confronting this deep core of his world's truth.

If you want to, you can dress this up as the prize for overcoming some challenge or proving his worth etc. Done properly the reader can actually be pleased that the MC has earned the info-dump.

Filigree · May 14, 2012

I told the primary creation myth of my MC's people in a poem sung to her by another character, but they get interrupted before it goes too far. The rest of the story, framed by a different culture, comes up later in the book.
This cosmology is so important that it shapes the whole story arc, but I release it in little bits and pieces as the MC discovers it.

Raventongue · May 14, 2012

Make it natural to the setting. That might mean working it into the religion, conversations, characters, whatever's appropriate to the time and place.

One of the big plot spots in my WIP is a war memorial the MC visits multiple times, for example.

In a medieval setting you'll have storytellers and musicians, perhaps show one or two of them performing or toss in a choice verse that's bing sung in the background as two characters meet in an inn?

Or in a futuristic setting, think injectable memories and the namesakes of organizations. Or something.

BradCarsten · May 15, 2012

Remember when you were a kid, sitting round a fire telling ghost stories? (and if you don't, just pretend you do) The speaker could spend a long time setting up the world, weaving his tale, building up the tension, and everyone was riveted.

Then do you remember sitting at a social event, stuck with some dude droning on in his monotone about something you stopped caring about 2 minutes into the monologue, and wishing that you could join everyone else laughing and having fun across the room?

Info dumping is usually the monotone drawl, but it is possible to turn it into a "ghost story around the camp fire," where it feels natural and actually adds to your story. If you must do it then do it properly. Don't force it. Tell it from the perspective of a character/nation/ people group. Give them a character arc a struggle etc. Hook the reader in and squeeze their emotions- make them care.

Once! · May 15, 2012

You've got a number of options:

1. The prologue. Turn your backstory into a chunk of text or a mini story. Play that chunk before anything else. It's the simplest way, but it can be very clunky to read.

2. Drip feed. Let little bits of the back story come out during the action.

3. The reader-guy. Many stories get around the backstory by having an ignorant character who has to have things explained to them. In a real life situation, characters who know each other well don't need to explain things. If we are just listening in we can struggle to know what's going on.

Enter the reader-guy. He doesn't know what is happening and so the other characters can teach him. And in teaching him, they are teaching us, because the reader-guy is really there to ask the questions that the reader needs to ask.

In the Sherlock Holmes stories, the reader-guy is Watson. Holmes has to explain to Watson how he solved the crimes, which in turn means that we the readers receive the same explanation.

In Avatar, the hero hasn't been trained. He's been dropped into the space exploration programme because his brother was killed. This allows all the characters around him to explain things to him.

In Star Wars ... Luke Warmwater. Obiwan has to explain the force to him.

In Terminator ... Sarah Connor.

In Harry Potter ... Harry Potter.

LOTR ... Frodo.

And on it goes. Stories are littered with reader-guys. They look innocent enough, but their real purpose is to give someone who can act as the reader.

Someone to tell the backstory to.

FalconMage · May 15, 2012

Is there a way to weave it into the boat trip, rather than as a dump? A few ideas:

The ship turned east for open sea, taking John past The Battlegrounds. The plains stretched inland high above the bay. Once, they'd been peppered with estates. The craters made that impossible now.

"Do you really think it's smart to travel through there? What the orcs did to the land..."
"It's either that or pay the tribute on the main road. I don't have that kind of coin, do you?"

Each scene can run one after another, but can serve more than one purpose, and might even aid the flow of the story, rather than interrupting it.

But that's the key, IMO. Keep the story moving. Don't interrupt it.

Pikabuddy · May 15, 2012

Thanks for all the replies, everyone! It's given me some new ideas how to incorporate this history into the story.

Hallen · May 15, 2012

Once! said:
You've got a number of options:

1. The prologue. Turn your backstory into a chunk of text or a mini story. Play that chunk before anything else. It's the simplest way, but it can be very clunky to read.

2. Drip feed. Let little bits of the back story come out during the action.

3. The reader-guy. Many stories get around the backstory by having an ignorant character who has to have things explained to them. In a real life situation, characters who know each other well don't need to explain things. If we are just listening in we can struggle to know what's going on.

Yeah, that pretty much covers it. Depending on the story, all of these methods can work -- or go horribly wrong. It all depends on how its done.

2500 words is nothing. It would work as a short prologue. I'd write it either as a fable-type story or something out of Greek mythology. It would be nice if you could tell it from the perspective of a character of some sort, maybe one of the gods. (or, have this story told as a story, around the campfire one night. Something like that...)

The danger of prologues is that there are lots of readers who do not read them. They skip right past them and start the story.

Another technique is to put parts of it at the start of chapters. Sanderson does this in Mistborn. The difference here is that it wasn't critical for the reader to know these things, but it did enhance the overall story.

Whatever you do, avoid the "As you know, Bob ..." convention. It pulls readers right out of the story.

jjdebenedictis · May 15, 2012

I guess the complement to the reader-guy is the Hermione--someone who cannot resist lecturing Reader-Guy whenever his ignorance shows itself.

Dancre · May 15, 2012

this is actually a great idea. Another idea: The Sword in the Stars has the history in small segments before each chapter.

Filigree said:
I told the primary creation myth of my MC's people in a poem sung to her by another character, but they get interrupted before it goes too far. The rest of the story, framed by a different culture, comes up later in the book.
This cosmology is so important that it shapes the whole story arc, but I release it in little bits and pieces as the MC discovers it.

Mr Flibble · May 15, 2012

2500 words? Ten standard pages! Of history! Really? *puts book down * (Unless written very well.)

If you absolutely have to really got to impart this knowledge, AND you absolutely cannot impart it through other means (bet you could , if you tried, at least some of it...):

Choices:

A character tells a story - but makes it so damn interesting the reader enjoys it

A paragraph or two that sums it up

Use it to give a chance to develop character - how he sees it may not be how it actually was - he puts his own gloss on it? So it serves as character development as well as info dump frex.

Basically, however you do it, make sure it does two things at once (builds character/plot etc as well as world build yada yada - al scenes should do more than one thing IMO)

Where to put all that history?

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