MFA

[gettingby]

Does anyone here have an MFA? I am thinking about getting one, but I know the programs are really competitive. Any advice on getting into an MFA program? Also, was it worth it? Did you come out a better writer?

[FOTSGreg]

Have you searched the Interwebz for MFA job salaries and done cross comparisons yet? You're asking us to do your research for you and - just this week - there was an article referenced by AOL that addressed the earning potential of MFAs.

Do your own research, please. It's out there and fully-available. All you have to do us type in the question on Google.

[gettingby]

I am not asking anyone to do my research for me. I am not interested in a job post-MFA. I just wanted to hear from people who have applied for MFA programs or gone through the program.

[FOTSGreg]

Dude (or Dudette), do the research. There was an article on AOL just last week.

Honestly, gettingby, you're just "getting buy". So many questions, so few answers, so little effort on your own.

You don't get anything worthwhile by letting someone else do the work.

[Smish]

I'd recommend doing a search on AW. If you scroll to the bottom of the page, you'll find a search bar/box. Type in "MFA". You'll find lots of AW threads on the topic.

[blacbird]

Write.

caw

[Old Hack]

I have an MA in writing which is, I think, the UK equivalent of an MFA.

It certainly improved my writing, and gave me more confidence.

I got onto the course by submitting a portfolio of my work. That's all anyone can do.

After I completed the MA (I got a distinction) I was asked if I'd like to teach undergraduates at the University. I declined. That's the only job offer it's ever got me.

[lastlittlebird]

I've got an MA in creative writing from a New Zealand university. My understanding is that the MFA is more like a PhD than an MA.
However I'll give you my two cents.

My course was basically a year of critiquing and guest lectures from various authors and editors and publishers. I really enjoyed it and I feel like it made me a better writer.

But I will admit it was basically a year of what you can do for yourself without a university backed environment. You can get critiques here in SYW, for example, and you can attend author lectures in most major cities and so forth. You can even find a great mentor if you're really lucky.

It's a wonderful experience... but I wouldn't go into debt for it. The only reason I'd even think about doing that is if my aim was to teach, which is the main purpose of being able to put the degree on your resume.
In that case, you're treating it more like different kind of degree with the end goal of a specific job that requires particular credentials.
Being an author doesn't require any credentials (aside from hours with butt in chair).

Bottom line: if you can get a scholarship (or can afford a few years off and to pay your own fees) and research a school that seems to have the right environment for you, then I say go for it. But it's not a magic bullet. It's just a really fancy writer's retreat.

[gettingby]

Thanks, Old Hack and lastlittlebird. The program I am considering is three years. That seems like a long time to me, but when I talked to them I was told more and more MFA programs are going to three years. They only take five new students a year for fiction so it is not easy to get into. And they base it on one writing sample. I am still just thinking about it. I am not even sure I could get in. But I just finished a writing class and feel like it helped me a lot. I think I would do well in an MFA setting.

[Medievalist]

Originally Posted by gettingby

Thanks, Old Hack and lastlittlebird. The program I am considering is three years. That seems like a long time to me, but when I talked to them I was told more and more MFA programs are going to three years. They only take five new students a year for fiction so it is not easy to get into. And they base it on one writing sample. I am still just thinking about it. I am not even sure I could get in. But I just finished a writing class and feel like it helped me a lot. I think I would do well in an MFA setting.

Do you want to write genre fiction?

Are you counting on the M.F.A. to help you become employed?

[gettingby]

Medievalist - No, I don't write or want to write genre fiction. I write mainstream/
literary fiction. And no to the employment. I do not plan on getting a job with or without an MFA. All I am looking for is to become a better writer and get published in the literary journals.

[lorna_w]

If can you get into Iowa, go. If you can't, skip it.

My program sucked on toast. I don't claim the MFA in Q letters. I'd sue them if I got a novel published and they started claiming me as a grad (they leave me off lists now, at my request/demand). I learned nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Except to hate more deeply. The only good writers I went with also hate it just as much. The only people who liked it were the hack suckups who never got published. There are lots of sexual predators in BFA/MFA programs in the US. The stories I've heard! In general, they teach an elitist attitude but little technique. My program encouraged drunkenness, irresponsibility, and pedophila. I'd rather learn writing in a prison program. I'd rather learn from how-to books. The critique circles I found in various cities, just regular folks, were better than the ones in the MFA program. Et cetera. I'm sure my drift is clear by now.

It did allow me to teach, and at PhD pay most places. But then, teaching screwed up my writing, so while I made a living, I'm not sure I'd count that as a win entirely. I should have taken a job at a grocery store stocking shelves instead, and kept writing in my off-hours.

"But Lorna, how do you really feel?"

[V1c]

I went to a three year MFA program and hated the program (also elitist crap, and a professor straight out said they encourage a lot of sameness to help MFA profs keep their jobs, IDK why they accepted me) but liked parts of the life outside the program. I got three years to just write, the pay was good, I wrote a lot, I met people in the community who are amazing and great writers, and I did grow as a writer and evolve, which is what I wanted. I had no illusions about jobs going in there, and don't want to teach full-time because it's a creativity suck, but was worth it for me. Just check out the community around the school as well as the school itself. there are definately good programs out there, and for some my program was good (those samness literary people). Really, do a lot of research to see if it's right for you.

[Darkwing]

I have an M.A. in literature with as many electives in creative writing as I could fit into my schedule. I know some people who are planning to get M.F.A.s, but personally I'd recommend against it. The job market for an MA with experience teaching composition is bad enough right now, let alone for someone who just has an M.F.A., which I believe is often perceived as rather useless. At one time, an M.F.A. was the terminal degree for someone interested in pursuing creative writing, but this has gone out of style. In order to stay competitive, people are getting normal M.A.s and then going on for a Ph.D. in creative writing. This is what I'm planning, after I take a year off to regain my sanity, make a little bit of money, and actually get back into writing regularly.

If you don't care about jobs (which is confusing to me . . . why get a degree if you're not going to use it professionally?), then perhaps it could be beneficial to you. I have received some of the best writing advice I've ever gotten from my creative writing instructors, and I really can say that I would not be at the place I am with my writing without their guidance. That said, I also think I could have learned this stuff through practice, through attending various writing workshops, and through being involved with some serious writers in a dedicated writing group. So it's not like the university program is going to be a magic bullet that you can't get anywhere else.

An M.F.A. may also be a good fit for you since you write literary fiction. I write genre fiction and am often frustrated by the bias against it in the academic creative writing world.

[Medievalist]

Originally Posted by gettingby

Medievalist - No, I don't write or want to write genre fiction. I write mainstream/
literary fiction. And no to the employment. I do not plan on getting a job with or without an MFA. All I am looking for is to become a better writer and get published in the literary journals.

Unless you get a full ride scholarship from Iowa or someplace that's as solid, I'd save your money for quality workshops.

[Filigree]

The workshop route is far cheaper, even for really good ones, and even in the literary and commercial fiction market.

If you can afford a good program, go for the whole package (the writing, networking, the university experience, etc.) It *may* improve your writing, just as any experience in the world might.

[lorna_w]

On elitism. I was scanning through old abandoned poem ideas today and came upon these relevant notes. I seriously have blocked most of the specific horrors of the MFA years, but the note recalled to memory that there was one poetry prof who said to her undergraduate students in my hearing that if they didn't like the same poems she did, "you should just go back to the farm." Very sneeringly said that. And this was in a state where students who were raised on farms did actually go there. She also claimed she was the only "real poet in the county." (Making me wonder what her two colleagues in poetry thought about that, also making me wonder if she had no clue that perhaps there was a grocer in town--or egads, even a farmer--who had publications in Poetry or APR or the New Yorker without first getting her imprimatur.)

If I cared to subject myself to reliving the trauma, I could come up with 100 more specifics just this awful.

[Medievalist]

Just as with any other degree, check out the profs. Who are they? What have they published? Does any one read them? What are previous graduates doing? What have they published, and where?

[IrisFlower81]

Wow. Lots of bad experiences out there with MFA programs--though I've heard things can be bad/worse if you write genre fiction in particular. That said, here's my two cents.

For one thing, it's funny to me that everyone holds Iowa up as a pinnacle. Not haha funny, just entertaining because I attended Iowa for my undergrad and got to work with a bunch of really talented people in the Iowa Writers' Workshop. I would recommend that program in a second, but, like most, it's super hard to get into.

That being said, I thought for awhile about doing an MFA when I was an undergrad--which, admittedly, wasn't that long ago--before I realized that a better option would be getting a few betas, busting hump on improving my own work, and not putting myself thousands of dollars into debt on a program that won't guarantee me anything but time to write.

Then again, my other problem with MFA programs is that 3/4 of them require you to teach to help pay your way, and I absolutely refuse to do that. No disrespect meant to teachers, but I am definitely not one of them.

In other words, I'll agree with what the people above me have said. If you have the money to drop or can get a full ride or a teaching assistantship, go for it. If not, I wouldn't bother.

[lauralam]

I'm thinking about doing one because I'm interested in teaching, but I'll do it in the UK when I have residency, apply for a lot of scholarships/interest free student loans, and it's only a 1 year course. The course I'm looking into is also genre-friendly and I'd study other aspects of writing like screenwriting, which I'm interested in. It's slightly different in my case because I will be published already, but just wanting to do it as a part-time day job because I would enjoy it and to give me added financial stability.

[Summonere]

Originally Posted by gettingby:

Does anyone here have an MFA?

I don't have an MFA. What I have is an MA from a university that appears to have supplemented that old MA program with a new MFA one, as it appears I did almost everything the MFA degree requires ( plus a few things extra), with minor exceptions. The biggest difference appears to be that I didn't teach any classes, which the MFA requires. So I reckon I'm close enough to sitting in that boat to comment. Even if I'm not, I'll comment anyway...

Originally Posted by gettingby:

I am thinking about getting one, but I know the programs are really competitive.

Really? My program was easy to get into. Good academic record, past record of fiction sales, a few modest writing awards, a genuine interest in the field of study, and an apparently successful interview with the chairman of the department.

Originally Posted by gettingby:

Any advice on getting into an MFA program?

Give it a go. If you aren't already studying in this area, and writing and submitting stories, you may not be the shiniest candidate, but if you have money, a willingness to pay, and the gumption to write, you probably stand a good chance of getting in somewhere.

Originally Posted by gettingby:

Also, was it worth it?

Financially, no. I spent money for which I probably had better use (the money was spent on books, as the tuition and general fees were covered by fee waivers). But I really liked reading and writing and learning about such things, so for philosophical reasons, yeah, it was probably worth it. But worth it job-wise? Not at all.

Originally Posted by gettingby:

Did you come out a better writer?

I think almost anyone will become a better writer after dedicating 2 or 3 years to learning their craft, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be a better storyteller. Maybe they'll be a better putter-togetherer-of-words and a crackerjack structuralist, to boot, and if that's how you approach it, you'll probably not be disappointed. But if you're looking for the magic beans of writerly success, the MFA cannot deliver them.

That said, I think I came out a better informed writer. That is, I learned about things I probably would never have investigated otherwise, namely, literary criticism.

Like Old Hack, I graduated with distinction, but unlike her, no one offered me a job. In fact, the MA appears to be completely useless as a job-getter, at least outside the adjunct-professoring world.

Originally Posted by gettingby:

I just wanted to hear from people who have applied for MFA programs or gone through the program... All I am looking for is to become a better writer and get published in the literary journals.

Becoming a better writer and getting published in your target markets is often a matter of reading, writing, and persevering. But you have to work at honing your craft, and if self-study isn't doing it for you, an MFA program is one way to go, but not the only way.

[V1c]

Originally Posted by Medievalist

Just as with any other degree, check out the profs. Who are they? What have they published? Does any one read them? What are previous graduates doing? What have they published, and where?

A Quick note on this - while it's nice to go for a mentor, be very aware that professors are greatly in flux. In fact, the whole dept faculty can change while you are in the program, which is why I suggest looking at other things first, because the professor you want to work with may not be there by the time school starts.

[Medievalist]

Originally Posted by V1c

A Quick note on this - while it's nice to go for a mentor, be very aware that professors are greatly in flux. In fact, the whole dept faculty can change while you are in the program, which is why I suggest looking at other things first, because the professor you want to work with may not be there by the time school starts.

You won't get a mentor in an M.A. unless you're extraordinarily lucky—but you will get an idea of what kind of faculty they hire to teach their writing courses, what they write, what they've published, and where.

You can't make a living publishing to literary journals, for instance, and if that's all the publication cred of the faculty they've hired, it's a problem if you want to make a living as a writer.

If the faculty are published by xLibris and Publish America—and yes, I've seen both on faculty c.v.s—don't bother.

[MJNL]

Many professional authors advocate for getting a degree in something other than creative writing or English if you want to be published. Because while there are many ways to learn the craft--including MFAs--none of them really help you with what to write about (ie. Having something to say/being a better story teller like Summonere mentioned)--not to mention they consistently fall short when it comes to the business side of writing (something that's vital to understand if you want writing to be more than a hobby). So, pursuing an advanced degree in psychology, or history, or sociology, or criminal justice, etc. might aid you better in the long run.

[folkchick]

I've been toying with the idea these last few months, but after reading the above responses I'm thinking it would be a frivolous expenditure. My problem is this: story after published story seem to all have a polished finesse my wild brain can't capture. They write tangled webs of elegant grace, I write unkempt stories of crazy people. It wouldn't hurt me to pick their brains a little, or at least rub off some of their good luck. But, I probably won't do it. I'm enacting my own MFA program here at home in which I read lot and write a lot. It's called: My F*cking Answer to getting stories published. Seems to be slowly working.