Book Pirate gets called out

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Stacia Kane

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The only people this man should have been outed to are the legal departments at various publishers, his ISP, and whatever law enforcement agency is appropriate. I could even accept contacting his employers and informing them that they have a thief as an employee.

Outing people in that manner is wrong.
 

shadowwalker

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What exactly are the legal penalties for pirating? I guess I would say if these guys typically end up with a slap on the wrist (effectively saying it's okay), then whatever legal means an author has of fighting back is fair. If, however, they're getting the full measure of the law and it's treated as any other theft of property is, then Goodkind probably went overboard.

But as far as pirating itself, it's obviously theft. It's not like they're buying one physical book and giving it to one friend; this is more like going to Kinkos and making copy after copy and handing them out. The fact that it's a computer file instead of a hardcopy is splitting hairs and doesn't change the fact they're stealing every copy they didn't pay for.
 

frolzagain

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Wow this thread exploded while I was away. I didn't mean to spark a piracy debate but at least people are getting the chance to learn more about it.

In my opinion, stealing is stealing. It does not matter if it's a digital file or a painting or an apple. Any way it is commited is wrong.
 

Mr Flibble

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He also insists he doesn't write fantasy, despite having books titled 'Wizard's First Rule', featuring a dragon on the cover.

So, you know. There's that too.


Wait, what? So what is he writing then (apart from dubious BDSM)?
 

lorna_w

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I'd like to do some research plotting attitudes about piracy here against words published and adult years spent writing toward publication. I won't do that research, but I'd like to see if my assumptions about correlations are proven or not.

And no one has mentioned buying used books as a form of not giving authors royalties, which I do. Sometimes they are so good, I want to go paypal the author for her 7% of original cover price.
 

Cyia

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But as far as pirating itself, it's obviously theft.

No it's not - in the technically, enforceable sense - and that's the problem. I'm no lawyer, but as I understand it, to meet the criteria for theft, then the rightful owner of a property has to be deprived of its use. Making a copy doesn't deprive the legal owner of the property. The writer can still sell/read what he/she has.

Morally, you can call it theft. Legally, it's iffy, and that's what's frustrating.
 

areteus

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I think a major problem is that it is almost impossible to stop piracy... at least by legal methods currently available. If a lot of people are doing something illegal, a lot of normal non-criminal people like you and I (which are lot of pirates often are) then it means the law is impotent. You can go after the big file sharing sites which allow it to happen but they are not necessarily the pirates - they are just the 'fence' and they may not even know it is happening (because unless they check every file uploaded to them, they can't know which ones are illegal uploads and which are not - people use these sites for genuine file sharing purposes, though the rise of dropbox has made them less critical for this).. The pirates are still out there and they simply find another place to upload, change user names, use disposable e-mail addresses and mask their IP addresses and they are effectively invisible.

Enforcement services at present do not have the money nor manpower to catch every illegal uploader never mind every illegal downloader.

My analogy is linked to dog poo... in the UK at present you can be fined up to £1000 for allowing your dog to defecate in the street without picking it up. That's a big fine (I think you get less for some drink driving offenses which to my mind are more dangerous and deserve higher penalties). However, you rarely see anyone fined so many people don't bother to pick up (not us, I have to say, we are good and pick it up...) because they do not think they will get caught.

Once, when the dog poo problem in our local park got very bad one summer, a number of local residents complained and so they did a surveillance job and caught a number of dog owners leaving the poo and fined them. They did this for a couple of days then stopped.

Things improved, there was no poo in the park. People were obeying the law because they were afraid they would get caught because some people had demonstrably been caught.

It did not last long, however. Soon everything went back to normal. Once the visible threat is removed, people revert to their old ways. They do not respect the law any more because they cannot see it in action. In order to prove someone has broken that law you need to have someone in a position to watch it happen. Either that or take samples of the poo and conduct a massive, expensive forensic investigation involving the DNA of every dog in the area...

Same applies to downloading. It is hard to catch someone at it. It is inefficient to go after the masses who just want to see the new release without paying for it, it is also hard to find the ones who are actually breaking the DRM codes and posting the books online. All you can do is hit the one immovable object in the equation - the website that hosts it. In a way this is like the US policy on terrorism. Don't go after the terrorists, just bomb the country they might possibly live in and hope you get enough of them to justify your war...

Now, when the authorities are powerless then authors can and should act to support the authorities. In my dog poo analogy, we have on occasion ran after offenders we have watched ignore poo and offered them a poo bag because 'clearly they have forgotten theirs'. In many cases this shames them into doing the right thing.

Not saying a public name and shame is in order but certainly report any information to the authorities...
 

areteus

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I'd like to do some research plotting attitudes about piracy here against words published and adult years spent writing toward publication. I won't do that research, but I'd like to see if my assumptions about correlations are proven or not.

And no one has mentioned buying used books as a form of not giving authors royalties, which I do. Sometimes they are so good, I want to go paypal the author for her 7% of original cover price.

I have to disagree with your draconian attitude to used books :) But I think I also know how the research will come out. It is easy to be idealistic when you do not have money riding on something...

In my opinion, if I buy a used book I am saving it from being pulped or otherwise destroyed. My house is a sanctuary for unwanted books (we occasionally rehome) that careless owners have treated badly, cast aside or even given away to charity! :)
 

DancingMaenid

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I really think this is a false assumption. People will steal a dollar's worth of candy from the story.

Piracy isn't about how much things cost. It's about a sense of entitlement.

For some people, sure. There will always be people who take stuff because they feel entitled.

But you're making a very broad assumption that just isn't true about everyone, and ignores some relevant variables.

For one thing, the way people pay for media isn't always straightforward. Increasingly, people are paying for services that don't give them a tangible product, and producers are not always paid directly by the consumers. Cable TV is a good example.

For another thing, sometimes people actually do pirate things they already own. There can be several reasons for this, such as wanting to view content on multiple devices but having trouble doing so. Or even just convenience.

The most logical response to this is to acknowledge the services people want and find a way to make them available for a reasonable cost. I, for one, will pay a reasonable price for content over pirating it any day. I'd much rather pay a couple dollars to rent a movie on iTunes or Amazon than try to find a safe, good-quality pirated version. But one of the challenges right now is that a lot of legit services can be very expensive.

That said, I think book piracy can be a little more straightforward since, whether you're buying a physical copy or an ebook, purchasing still generally involves paying directly for a copy of the book. But there are still concerns about DRM and being able to read your book on the devices of your choosing.

As for the case at hand, the pirate behaved unethically, but mob justice isn't the answer. I think posting public information of someone who hasn't been found guilty of a crime is poor form, and I don't have much sympathy for Goodkind's response. I would be very sympathetic to filing a complaint and going through official channels, though.
 

Barbara R.

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Jamesaritchie

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Guys, I bolded a particular part of that quote for a reason. Never said the libraries didn't pay for the book. Just that readers who borrow from libraries also have no incentive to purchase the book.

Neither do readers who borrow a book from a friend. But a scum sucking thief is just a scum sucking thief, incentive or not.
 

frimble3

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Just FYI: not all the world is the USA. In Canada and the UK authors get paid every time someone takes out their books from the library. So the comparison of piracy to libraries only slightly works for Americans, not for everyone.
Apparently the Canadian Supreme Court just made some ruling about no longer paying musicians for downloads, which will probably shortly have repercussions for authors
I didn't really understand it, as I've never downloaded music, or, indeed, bought much in years.
 

frimble3

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Publishing the person's name, maybe. I think publishing a photo goes a bit too far.



Libraries.
Exactly, how many writers are hoping for library sales to expose more people to their work. Especially in those demographics that don't spend all day browsing book reviews.

Yeah, but the library PURCHASED the book. The author was paid for the book. If you buy a book and lend it to your friends, you still made the initial purchase. No problem with lending.

Pirates just steal it and the author gets nothing.
Exactly. The closer equivalent would be someone who borrows the book from the library, and photocopies the whole thing for distribution. Fortunately, this is too slow and expensive for crooks.


Guys, I bolded a particular part of that quote for a reason. Never said the libraries didn't pay for the book. Just that readers who borrow from libraries also have no incentive to purchase the book.
No incentive except permanent possession. That's when I know I want a book: I keep taking it out, and fretting over it's unavailablity when I want to have a browse at 2AM.
Not to mention, being able to bookmark pages, and slide clippings between the pages.
If you own a book, you never have to worry that some librarian is going to decide that the book doesn't meet some criteria, and discard it when your back is turned.
I may be the exception, but I've tried out several books at the library and then went and bought copies for myself.
Coincidentally, one of the many books I've bought after trying it out at the library is 'Force of Habit', CallaLily.
 

willietheshakes

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Apparently the Canadian Supreme Court just made some ruling about no longer paying musicians for downloads, which will probably shortly have repercussions for authors
I didn't really understand it, as I've never downloaded music, or, indeed, bought much in years.

Completely different thing.
The SCC ruling concerned Access Copyright (and wasn't actually a ruling, but a kick of the issue back to the commission), along with copyright questions regarding music.
It had nothing to do with the PLR, which has no copyright questions attached to it.
 

James D. Macdonald

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And no one has mentioned buying used books as a form of not giving authors royalties, which I do

You do what? Count buying used books as a form of not giving authors' royalties, or buy used books?

The author has already been paid for every single one of those copies.

I don't feel the need to send the Ford Motor Company a check every time I buy a used car, either.
 

Unimportant

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Royalties are per-copy, not per-reader or per-read.

Crikey, if I had to pay Stacia Kane a royalty every time I re-read her books, I'd be broke.
 

kuwisdelu

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Though I don't think it's applicable in this case (Tor doesn't use DRM, right?), if media providers were serious about turning pirates into paying customers, they'd stop treating their paying customers like criminals.
 

Amadan

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:gets out popcorn:

Goodkind is an asshole. Guy who pirated his book is an asshole.

MM

QFT.

Everything else in this thread is MUCH RAEG!!!!! and exactly the same old arguments as ever. Pass me the popcorn.
 

James D. Macdonald

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My opinion is that most people will do the right thing, if the right thing is easy, even if it costs a bit more.

Notice how the legal state lotteries have driven out the old Mafia numbers game even though the Mafia offered a better payout.
 

bearilou

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The only people this man should have been outed to are the legal departments at various publishers, his ISP, and whatever law enforcement agency is appropriate. I could even accept contacting his employers and informing them that they have a thief as an employee.

Outing people in that manner is wrong.

The bold makes me extremely uncomfortable.

It's okay to call his employer and accuse him of theft but it's not okay to post his name on the internet? Where's the line?
 

Soccer Mom

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Though I don't think it's applicable in this case (Tor doesn't use DRM, right?), if media providers were serious about turning pirates into paying customers, they'd stop treating their paying customers like criminals.


Here is where we agree. DRM is of the devil.
 

frimble3

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Completely different thing.
The SCC ruling concerned Access Copyright (and wasn't actually a ruling, but a kick of the issue back to the commission), along with copyright questions regarding music.
It had nothing to do with the PLR, which has no copyright questions attached to it.
Thank you for the clarification, I was just assuming that it would all eventually inter-relate. Okay, and it made my head hurt. :)
 

frimble3

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My opinion is that most people will do the right thing, if the right thing is easy, even if it costs a bit more.

Notice how the legal state lotteries have driven out the old Mafia numbers game even though the Mafia offered a better payout.
I'm guessing that the arguement for legalizing pot would be a total derail, so I will refrain.
 

kuwisdelu

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Not everyone will pay because it's the right thing to do, but almost everyone will pay when it's more convenient in every way than not doing so.
 
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