Could this be considered offensive?

Persei · Jul 10, 2012

Ok. So... I had this idea for a novel quite some time ago. It is a novel about a patologist named Devika who is encharged with a case about a priest who died in a suspicious way. The case is linked to terrorism -- as the setting is 2006 Rome -- but turns out the wounds on the priest are not enough to kill him, and she is sure it's something.

Then, she finds another priest. Alive, this time. The enigmatic Allegrezza is dangerous and his moral compass doesn't point north, for sure. Though Devika accepts his help anyway. As I went on writing the first draft and discovering Allegrezza's powers, something hit me:

It would make no sense for him to be the age he was (35). So since he's half-demon and the demon who is his father can shape shift, I decided to make him able to shape shift and made him younger (18) passing as an older person. This gave me idea for another novel, and I kind of... Stopped writing this story.

I realized, though, that Allegrezza might as well be an agender, aromantic and asexual person that plays the role required for it(as I am not sure which pronoun I should use now) to achieve its means. Those means are benign, but its methods are not.

And that is the problem. Being an aromantic myself, I know that we barely appear on the media and I thought of making Allegrezza the protagonist, and switch Devika to a conservative Detective. But Allegrezza is morally questionable and far away from good -- at least in the way I see it -- and the fact it's agender, aromantic and asexual comes from the fact it's half-demon.

I consider this offensive. Not sure about everyone else...?

katelynlea123 · Jul 10, 2012

and the fact it's agender, aromantic and asexual comes from the fact it's half-demon.

I skimmed over this post like I usually do before deciding whether or not to commit to reading and responding to it (I'm lazy). Before I reread your post I popped up another tab to look up what exactly asexual/aromantic meant. I thought, it would make sense for a demon to be aromantic/asexual as demons in Catholic dogma, to my understanding, are never mentioned as having relations with humans where angels are in the Old Testament.

Now, the way I understand it your original thought is to make half-demon priest Allegrezza the bad guy of the story and you're worried bout portraying an asexual/aromantic character as the villian.

I think it would make sense that a consequence of "the fall" would be the loss of the ability to feel romantic or sexual attraction to others. Of course that logic begs the question as to how Allegrezza has a demon for a father. I think the answer to that dissonance would be to have the priest (or the victim who eventually takes on the appearance of a priest) bodily possessed by a demon who so overpowers him that he physically takes on the demon's ability to shape shift. But that's just something I noticed and my humble opinion about it, there are, of course, other ways to handle his parentage.

Now on to your question.

As long as you don't portray the aromantic/asexual quality of Al as the inherent cause of his lack of morality (i.e. asexual people are evil because they can't love) you should be just fine. Perhaps his inability to find romantic solace and sexual release is a contributing factor as to why he's so disconnected from morality (i.e. people around me are happy and satisfied, so I must be dysfunctional because I can't be the same way and that makes me angry). I think that lends toward an antagonist who can be at least somewhat redeemed or changed in the end by coming to terms with the condition of his soul. I don't mean to hijack your story, but the infusion of the human/demonic body/soul could play a key part in painting your antagonist in a light that lends toward your readers being sympathetic.

Then again, I could be totally wrong. I'd never even heard of asexuality outside of bio class until just now. But as someone with an ignorance to that, and given the fact that some if not a good chunk of your readers will also be ignorant of it, I hope I've given you something to work with :]

Persei · Jul 10, 2012

katelynlea123 said:
I skimmed over this post like I usually do before deciding whether or not to commit to reading and responding to it (I'm lazy). Before I reread your post I popped up another tab to look up what exactly asexual/aromantic meant. I thought, it would make sense for a demon to be aromantic/asexual as demons in Catholic dogma, to my understanding, are never mentioned as having relations with humans where angels are in the Old Testament.

Now, the way I understand it your original thought is to make half-demon priest Allegrezza the bad guy of the story and you're worried bout portraying an asexual/aromantic character as the villian.

I think it would make sense that a consequence of "the fall" would be the loss of the ability to feel romantic or sexual attraction to others. Of course that logic begs the question as to how Allegrezza has a demon for a father. I think the answer to that dissonance would be to have the priest (or the victim who eventually takes on the appearance of a priest) bodily possessed by a demon who so overpowers him that he physically takes on the demon's ability to shape shift. But that's just something I noticed and my humble opinion about it, there are, of course, other ways to handle his parentage.

Now on to your question.

As long as you don't portray the aromantic/asexual quality of Al as the inherent cause of his lack of morality (i.e. asexual people are evil because they can't love) you should be just fine. Perhaps his inability to find romantic solace and sexual release is a contributing factor as to why he's so disconnected from morality (i.e. people around me are happy and satisfied, so I must be dysfunctional because I can't be the same way and that makes me angry). I think that lends toward an antagonist who can be at least somewhat redeemed or changed in the end by coming to terms with the condition of his soul. I don't mean to hijack your story, but the infusion of the human/demonic body/soul could play a key part in painting your antagonist in a light that lends toward your readers being sympathetic.

Then again, I could be totally wrong. I'd never even heard of asexuality outside of bio class until just now. But as someone with an ignorance to that, and given the fact that some if not a good chunk of your readers will also be ignorant of it, I hope I've given you something to work with :]

Allegrezza 1.0 is the sidekick. Both Allegrezza 2.0 and 1.0 are not evil, like truly evil. They have their wicked ways of doing things, but that what is required to solve the mystery. Both can love and their goals are benign. In another words, they might help on solve the mystery in a uncommon and morally questionable way.

The thing is that people have this image that humanity means feeling romantic/sexual love and being man or woman. Allegrezza 2.0 -- hell, even 1.0 -- is not like this and some characters might associate it with the fact that xe is evil. Allegrezza was once sexual, romantic and a gendered person until a traumatic even (the death of xir human mother) that made xe embrace what xe thinks is xir demonic side and grow apart for what people think is humanity.

The upgraded story might be about xe finding out that despite xir apparent lack of humanity, xe can never be fully demon and never be truly evil because that's not who xe is. Perhaps this way it won't offend anyone. And it makes an interesting story, no...?

Raventongue · Jul 10, 2012

So I read your entire first post and none of the subsequent posts. I would not think that's offensive in any way.

thebloodfiend · Jul 10, 2012

I don't find it offensive. Just like I don't find black villains offensive. When it's the black dude as the villain over and over again (usually as the only black dude in the entire movie) then I'm offended.

But, I don't know. I've always seen demons (not religious, myself) as agendered, but not necessarily asexual or aromantic.

Anyway, unless it's a well known, offensive trope, I don't think you'll offend anyone. I've never heard of it. Is it like the "bisexual must always be crazy and never in a committed relationship" trope?

As an aside, I know the purpose of the xe/xir thing, but god it confuses me. I read xe as he and xir as her and I'm always left thinking someone is talking about two different (or more) people.

This:

The thing is that people have this image that humanity means feeling romantic/sexual love and being man or woman. Allegrezza 2.0 -- hell, even 1.0 -- is not like this and some characters might associate it with the fact that xe is evil. Allegrezza was once sexual, romantic and a gendered person until a traumatic even (the death of xir human mother) that made xe embrace what xe thinks is xir demonic side and grow apart for what people think is humanity.

Is an interesting concept to explore, though. Perhaps the meaning of humanity he comes to is that only humans are willing to shell over seven dollars a day, every day, for a shitty cup of coffee and a dingy pastry when they're in a rush? I kid, but it is a concept I'd like to read about. Yours, not mine.

Persei · Jul 10, 2012

thebloodfiend said:
I don't find it offensive. Just like I don't find black villains offensive. When it's the black dude as the villain over and over again (usually as the only black dude in the entire movie) then I'm offended.

But, I don't know. I've always seen demons (not religious, myself) as agendered, but not necessarily asexual or aromantic.

Anyway, unless it's a well known, offensive trope, I don't think you'll offend anyone. I've never heard of it. Is it like the "bisexual must always be crazy and never in a committed relationship" trope?

As an aside, I know the purpose of the xe/xir thing, but god it confuses me. I read xe as he and xir as her and I'm always left thinking someone is talking about two different (or more) people.

This:

Is an interesting concept to explore, though. Perhaps the meaning of humanity he comes to is that only humans are willing to shell over seven dollars a day, every day, for a shitty cup of coffee and a dingy pastry when they're in a rush? I kid, but it is a concept I'd like to read about. Yours, not mine.

The point of the pronouns is exactly that is neither he or she/him or her. It might be confusing at first, but after a while it sinks in. Also, it was the pronoun I found after twenty seconds of research, perhaps there are easier to understand pronouns. So... It was just not to call Allegrezza "it" in the posts. I won't be using xe/xir on the writing of the novel.

And... Yeah, maybe I was reading too much into it. It's not a trope, and definitely xim -- the damned pronoun again -- being all these things is (are?) not the reason why xe is the way xe is. It just happens to be there because that's what I've envisioned. As xe is sort of a blob, willing to play any role to get what xe wants.

Some demons could be aros/aces, in the way I see it. Being aro/ace has more to do with not feeling romantic/sexual attraction, and so engaging in sexual acts or romantic relationships for convenience doesn't really dispute the lack of attraction. Means only that the individual in question is not aversed to those things.

The concept of humanity Allegrezza will find is still a bit blurry on my head but has something to do with love (all kinds of)/empathy/simpathy. I'm going to figure it out.

thebloodfiend · Jul 10, 2012

Persei said:
The point of the pronouns is exactly that is neither he or she/him or her. It might be confusing at first, but after a while it sinks in. Also, it was the pronoun I found after twenty seconds of research, perhaps there are easier to understand pronouns. So... It was just not to call Allegrezza "it" in the posts. I won't be using xe/xir on the writing of the novel.

Oh, I get it. It's just hard for me to adjust to it in context, being unfamiliar with the character. My brain automatically "corrects" it to he/her. Out of curiosity, what do you do in the MS?

And... Yeah, maybe I was reading too much into it. It's not a trope, and definitely xim -- the damned pronoun again -- being all these things is (are?) not the reason why xe is the way xe is. It just happens to be there because that's what I've envisioned. As xe is sort of a blob, willing to play any role to get what xe wants.

Reminds me of that movie with Denzel Washington. Is your character sexless, too? Or a hermaphrodite? I wonder how that works for (mythical) demons.

Some demons could be aros/aces, in the way I see it. Being aro/ace has more to do with not feeling romantic/sexual attraction, and so engaging in sexual acts or romantic relationships for convenience doesn't really dispute the lack of attraction. Means only that the individual in question is not aversed to those things.

It's possible. Are all demons in your universe aro/asexual? Or just your MC? And what kind of "evil" does your MC commit? Because I generally tie lack of emotion, which is not lack of romantic/sexual desire, with inhumanity. But then, animals can "feel" emotion, as well. And many non-aro/asexuals can be in relationships for convenience. It is spelled out, using those words, that your MC is aro/asexual, because the majority of people will just assume that (fucking pronouns, almost typed he) xi, is just a sociopath. That's what I'm assuming, anyway.

The concept of humanity Allegrezza will find is still a bit blurry on my head but has something to do with love (all kinds of)/empathy/simpathy. I'm going to figure it out.

I wish you good luck with figuring it out. I'm still intrigued by the concept.

Persei · Jul 10, 2012

Oh, I get it. It's just hard for me to adjust to it in context, being unfamiliar with the character. My brain automatically "corrects" it to he/her. Out of curiosity, what do you do in the MS?

I didn't start to actually do the thing, but I will use the POV of another character. The poor detective who goes along with Allegrezza will have a hard time with pronouns, and the answer will be: "Whatever you are comfortable with, Detective. I am nothing but what the situation requires of me." or something along in these lines.

Reminds me of that movie with Denzel Washington. Is your character sexless, too? Or a hermaphrodite? I wonder how that works for (mythical) demons.

Nope. Xe was born a boy. But he can shape shift. So who knows what xe really is?

It's possible. Are all demons in your universe aro/asexual? Or just your MC? And what kind of "evil" does your MC commit? Because I generally tie lack of emotion, which is not lack of romantic/sexual desire, with inhumanity. But then, animals can "feel" emotion, as well. And many non-aro/asexuals can be in relationships for convenience. It is spelled out, using those words, that your MC is aro/asexual, because the majority of people will just assume that (fucking pronouns, almost typed he) xi, is just a sociopath. That's what I'm assuming, anyway.

"Evil" is not the word. Morally questionable, let's say. Capable of harm and wrongdoings to get what xe wants -- but those points/objectives/whatever are good. Allegrezza could be considered sociopath, yes. . You can use "it" if it's a burden to type "xe" though. I use "xe" because I was writing a drabble where a character referred to a robot by "he" and a male alien by "it" to dismiss the alien as a thing and it's still crawling on my skin. *shakes head vigorously*

I wish you good luck with figuring it out. I'm still intrigued by the concept.

I will need lots of it, thank you very much

But I think I might get closer to a solid definition by researching what Google thinks humanity is, lol.

Kim Fierce · Jul 12, 2012

I don't think this is offensive, either, and as others have said, could make sense into adding depth to your character.

robertsloan2 · Jul 14, 2012

I don't think anything about this is offensive, but the devil is in the details. How this character's portrayed and whether xe comes out as sympathetic isn't the same as whether xe is wicked or does evil in the course of the story. Since your character's on a redemption arc and will deepen and have character growth, that sounds positive.

That includes coming to terms with being asexual/aromantic when everything in the culture screams that being one of the two acceptable genders and having a romance with the other is essential to the human experience. Discovering that's just not true is an important point of growth. It may be the thing that makes the story more than "Not offensive" - and I can see the ultimate discovery coming with the character finding a form of love that's not romantic.

That could be anything.

Also even if you have Catholic priests in a story, I don't think you need to stick to Catholic canon in terms of the origin or physiology or properties of demons. Those are things you make up. The Catholics in the story may not know everything about them. It's a small pet peeve but I get tired of fiction that assumes "Catholic superstitions are always spot on accurate about the supernatural but anything else is a crock." Comparative religion and anthropology are full of demons from every culture around the world and history is full of still more. Feel free to mix them up and play with the difference between superstition and reality.

That person would have a hard time with self acceptance until xe learned to let go of the Catholic paradigm, which is very rigid on gender and sexuality issues.

If one of the things that leads the character to self acceptance and recognition is meeting a human who's asexual/aromantic and whole and happy as a human being, that could be awesome. Just a thought to toss into the brainstorm, I'm sure there are lots of other ways to deal with it. But I know how shattering it was to run into other transgender people in fiction when I was a little kid and literally everyone in the world hated me - most often coming down on me like a ton of bricks every time I was being good but not caring or even praising it when I was bad. Your character's in that situation, also facing a problem of heredity and of people assuming heredity is everything, that if you're born to be bad you're gonna be bad no matter what.

There are all sorts of interesting themes in this. Go for it.

Persei · Jul 14, 2012

I don't think anything about this is offensive, but the devil is in the details. How this character's portrayed and whether xe comes out as sympathetic isn't the same as whether xe is wicked or does evil in the course of the story. Since your character's on a redemption arc and will deepen and have character growth, that sounds positive.

That includes coming to terms with being asexual/aromantic when everything in the culture screams that being one of the two acceptable genders and having a romance with the other is essential to the human experience. Discovering that's just not true is an important point of growth. It may be the thing that makes the story more than "Not offensive" - and I can see the ultimate discovery coming with the character finding a form of love that's not romantic.

Yep, that's the story in a nutshell.

Also even if you have Catholic priests in a story, I don't think you need to stick to Catholic canon in terms of the origin or physiology or properties of demons. Those are things you make up. The Catholics in the story may not know everything about them. It's a small pet peeve but I get tired of fiction that assumes "Catholic superstitions are always spot on accurate about the supernatural but anything else is a crock." Comparative religion and anthropology are full of demons from every culture around the world and history is full of still more. Feel free to mix them up and play with the difference between superstition and reality.

That person would have a hard time with self acceptance until xe learned to let go of the Catholic paradigm, which is very rigid on gender and sexuality issues.

The concept of demons in the Bible is very unclear and fuzzy (contradictory, even), I discovered after buying a book about that subject. The demons will have a clear concept, and clear properties, otherwise it will be impossible to write my story. I am definitely free to mix them up.

The demon who is Allegrezza's father exists, in fact, across cultures and there's a lot of material to work on, gladly.

If one of the things that leads the character to self acceptance and recognition is meeting a human who's asexual/aromantic and whole and happy as a human being, that could be awesome. Just a thought to toss into the brainstorm, I'm sure there are lots of other ways to deal with it. But I know how shattering it was to run into other transgender people in fiction when I was a little kid and literally everyone in the world hated me - most often coming down on me like a ton of bricks every time I was being good but not caring or even praising it when I was bad. Your character's in that situation, also facing a problem of heredity and of people assuming heredity is everything, that if you're born to be bad you're gonna be bad no matter what.

There are all sorts of interesting themes in this. Go for it.

Thank you so much for you input! Your ideas definitely helped me out on dealing with the subject. Heredity will be a point of conflict in my story as well as Allegrezza's lack of gender/ constant cross dressing.

I'm sorry that you got it bad, though... :/

robertsloan2 · Jul 14, 2012

Thanks. I had the inherent evil thing thrown in too by way of some specific dysfunctions in the family. Catholic dogma from the outside and mental illness definitions of reality, with a scapegoat role that I just did NOT fulfill whenever I did something right. I was supposed to loudly repent, lie and do what I got accused of, say, drinking alcohol (from age five!) instead of not do it and get all outraged at false accusations.

Sometimes it's trippy to sort out what caused what. This was transphobia, this was sexism, this was Catholic-specific, this was over religion but in general, this was ableism, this was local custom that is never discussed and has nothing to do with any known discrimination but even my most enlightened friends from there can't shake the habit. It gets crazy sorting it out but that's better than just ignoring it, once sorted out I can consciously reject it.

Persei · Jul 15, 2012

Indeed. People tend to be hostile of what they don't know -- or try to explain it as if it wasn't real... Not to mention categorize other people with not enough information about them. Which will be a "thing" on my story, as you already know and experienced, it sadly happens, too, in real life.

At least you can see through the stupid of this kind of thinking. It's definitely easier to ignore and reject what's harmful, then.

buz · Jul 15, 2012

This story/character sounds interesting.

I don't think it's offensive. (I am, as far as I can tell, asexual/aromantic, although that's not set in stone--just my experience in life so far.) It makes sense to me. If I make my character a douche-whore who wears waterbras, am I saying all people who wear waterbras are douche-whores...

Well. You know. Everyone else has already said it. As long as it's not all "romantic love and sex is the entire point of existence"...

Actually, I wouldn't find that offensive either. I'd just feel left out. Just like I feel left out of all Taylor Swift songs. Doesn't mean I don't like 'em.

(Not all of them. Just the catchy ones.)

Anyway. I thought I had some sort of original point or input, but I can't remember it. Point is, I don't think I'd find this offensive. Yaayyy being repetitive.

Persei · Jul 15, 2012

Oh well. It doesn't harm to be careful... Glad that you find the concept interesting

I feel left out of many books because of this importance that is given to romantic love and sex, so why not write a book where those things are not important?

Could this be considered offensive?

Persei

Let it go

katelynlea123

Persei

Let it go

Raventongue

little orphan anarchist

thebloodfiend

Cory

Persei

Let it go

thebloodfiend

Cory

Persei

Let it go

Kim Fierce

Attack me with everything you have.

robertsloan2

Felinocentric Monster of Word Count

Persei

Let it go

robertsloan2

Felinocentric Monster of Word Count

Persei

Let it go

buz

can't stop hemorrhaging emojis

Persei

Let it go