XoXo Publishing / Botham Publishing / Ninni Group, Inc.

[Payne]

Hi, well this certainly been an interesting thread. I was wondering if its legal ( I seriously doubt it ) that editors can copy posts from face book , i.e role players story lines, get someone else to edit the posts to make it run like a story THEN make the original role player sign a contract to say they wrote the story and that they will publish it EVEN though the original storyline stolen from face book totally rewritten by somebody else entirely.

Also I have discovered a few of the editors from XOXO approaching Role players on face book , promising them a publishing contract based on posts on group pages on face book.

How does this work? it really confuses me I must be a complete numpty , because I thought in order to become published you need a complete finished manuscript that YOU wrote, send it to publishers via agent ( or not in some cases ) etc.. etc.. I didn't think you could get published so easy just from a few fan fiction posts written on social networks.

Can anyone verify if my suspicions are true and is this the way most publishers work (ebooks) their approach at times also seems a little barbaric

Confused

Payne

[Filigree]

This is not how 'most' e-publishers work. Your instincts are telling you something. Listen to them.

[Stacia Kane]

They can't "make" you sign anything, or agree to anything.

And IANAL, but if they've told you specifically that they've turned your posts into a story to publish, and publish it without your permission, I'd consult one immediately. You may have a case and you may not, but I'd definitely check were I you.

[Payne]

Originally Posted by Stacia Kane

They can't "make" you sign anything, or agree to anything.

And IANAL, but if they've told you specifically that they've turned your posts into a story to publish, and publish it without your permission, I'd consult one immediately. You may have a case and you may not, but I'd definitely check were I you.

This role player in particular was really new to writing , wasnt even interested in writing a book , they basically bullied them into signing contracts even though they hadnt seen a manuscript the only information they had was the posts they originally posted on facebook, and what i have heard they arent the first role players to been handpicked by xoxo , another woman went through same experience with them which ended horribly.

Just wanted to know in some kind of legal sense whether they can do this , have someone sign a contract for a manuscript that they never wrote.

Its very confusing and frustrating

[James D. Macdonald]

Holy Crapoli! Don't sign anything!

When you say,

Just wanted to know in some kind of legal sense whether they can do this , have someone sign a contract for a manuscript that they never wrote.

Do you mean something that is yet to be written, or something that someone else wrote (to which the signer has no legal right)?

[michael_b]

Originally Posted by Payne

This role player in particular was really new to writing , wasnt even interested in writing a book , they basically bullied them into signing contracts even though they hadnt seen a manuscript the only information they had was the posts they originally posted on facebook, and what i have heard they arent the first role players to been handpicked by xoxo , another woman went through same experience with them which ended horribly.

Just wanted to know in some kind of legal sense whether they can do this , have someone sign a contract for a manuscript that they never wrote.

Its very confusing and frustrating

Point blank--and I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV--this is illegal. For one, what about the role-playing setting? Does it even belong to the gamer(s) in question? If not then XOXO is opening themselves up to a huge lawsuit because role playing game companies defend their intellectual property with big gun legal teams.

Second, taking something found on the internet, cleaning it up and publishing it without permission is a violation of copyright, period. Also, if these posts were written by a community of people playing their characters then no one person owns the rights to the resulting story which seems to be something else this 'publisher' doesn't get.

If you're in the role playing community--I used to be but don't have the time these days--then I'd suggest broadcasting a warning about this 'publisher' via posts on game groups you may belong to.

And then they wonder why I banned them from posting on my Yahoo Groups. Their argument in their favor was they're a 'legitimate publisher'. Frankly NO legitimate publisher would do even 1/100th% of the weird things I've heard about them doing.

[Payne]

Ok i will try and explain what happened if i can without mention to many names

my friend wrote as a role player on face book , she posted with an editor from xoxo who also posted as a role player.

The editor then asked an author from xoxo to copy the posts from facebook tidy them up so they look like a running story , which this author did. My friend , was then asked to sign a contract for the manuscript ( that the other author wrote ) Now my friend was told by the editor everything will be fine , just sign its basically so you get the money and the title in your name, you just continue posting on face book we will do the rest . So she did *facepalms* i know i know but she trusted what she was told really believed this editor etc..

anyway along the lines a massive argument came about and my friend and the editor fell out , the contract was terminated etc.. and since then she has been slagged off repeatedly by this company , from the book cover designer to co owner and now they are even threatening her with fraud over the manuscript .

I feel for my friend so much , she had no clear understandings of what was going on etc.. i am clueless to even know what to suggest anymore other than seek legal advice against them.

[michael_b]

Originally Posted by Payne

I feel for my friend so much , she had no clear understandings of what was going on etc.. i am clueless to even know what to suggest anymore other than seek legal advice against them.

She needs to seek legal advice from a lawyer who understands copyright. Her best bet would be to find a 'legal defense for the arts' service in her area. Many of these lawyers will represent authors pro-bono.

[Payne]

Thanks guys you have all pretty much said along the lines of what i did , wished we had found this site sooner.

I am still baffled how they can do anything anyway , as the so called manuscript my friend never submitted or wrote even though she was conned into signing *sighs* you guys are amazing thank you so much

Payne

[LindaJeanne]

Originally Posted by michael_b

She needs to seek legal advice from a lawyer who understands copyright. Her best bet would be to find a 'legal defense for the arts' service in her area. Many of these lawyers will represent authors pro-bono.

Yeah, THIS.

Payne, let me see if I understand this correctly

• Friend did a play-by-post RPG on facebook, based on some already-published RPG system (so far, so good).
• An author signed with xoxo editor at XoXo participated (again, so far so good)
• xoxo had author-signed-with-xoxo write up the PBP to look like a story (um, what?)
• xoxo then, somehow, convinced your friend to sign something saying that the write-up was a story that Friend had written, giving xoxo permission to publish it. (Holy WTF, batman!)

Do I have this right? If so, your friend could potentially get into legal trouble for selling rights to something that she didn't own. The sooner she speaks to a lawyer, the better a chance she has of avoiding problems. (Per clarification below: if Friend and Editor were the only ones participating, and the game did not involve any copyrighted material, this becomes less of an issue)

Edited to add: Tell your friend to save all e-mails, take screen-shots of any posts someone other than herself could delete, make a note of the date, time, and content of all phone-calls -- keep a record of every contact with the publisher or the xoxo author.

[Stacia Kane]

I'd also suggest your friend send what she has to the good folks at Writer Beware. Your friend may not be the only one this happened/is happening to.


That is probably one of the most...amazing...things I've ever heard. And I've been here a long time.

[Filigree]

Yeah. Every time I think a fraudulent publisher is the most brazen group of confidence-men I've ever seen, another one surpasses my lowest expectations.

The best bet might be to turn the gaming company on them.

[Payne]

Originally Posted by LindaJeanne

Yeah, THIS.

Payne, let me see if I understand this correctly

• Friend did a play-by-post RPG on facebook, based on some already-published RPG system (so far, so good).
• An author signed with xoxo participated (again, so far so good)
• xoxo had author-signed-with-xoxo write up the PBP to look like a story (um, what?)
• xoxo then, somehow, convinced your friend to sign something saying that the write-up was a story that Friend had written, giving xoxo permission to publish it. (Holy WTF, batman!)

Do I have this right? If so, your friend could potentially get into legal trouble for selling rights to something that she didn't own. The sooner she speaks to a lawyer, the better a chance she has of avoiding problems.

Edited to add: Tell your friend to save all e-mails, take screen-shots of any posts someone other than herself could delete, make a note of the date, time, and content of all phone-calls -- keep a record of every contact with the publisher or the xoxo author.

• Friend did a play-by-post RPG on facebook, ~ Based on a story she had in mind not someone elses .
• An author signed with xoxo participated (again, so far so good) ~ Actual editor of xoxo
• xoxo had author-signed-with-xoxo write up the PBP to look like a story (um, what?) ~ Correct
• xoxo then, somehow, convinced your friend to sign something saying that the write-up was a story that Friend had written, giving xoxo permission to publish it. (Holy WTF, batman!) ~ Basically yes

[LindaJeanne]

Payne,

Was it a homebrew setting and system as well, or was her story set in an existing world? (i.e. even though the storyline was original, was any previously published material used to help create the game?) How many other participants were there, if any?

So, in brief: an (or more likely "the", since the company may well be a single person) editor for XoXo participated in your friend's PBP, wrote it up as though it were a story, and then pressured your friend to sign a contract saying that she wrote it and XoXo could publish it?

[Payne]

As far as I know it was original work from my friend their were only two people involved in the actual posting on face book herself and the xoxo editor. obviously behind the scenes there were more from other xoxo author rewriting the posts , to the cover designer, yes same one mention in earlier posts on this board. Even she has jumped on the band wagon and been sending threatening emails to my friend and to myself !! 0.0

Even the submissions editor, operations editor and Gina Cianfarani the owner of xoxo signed and drafted the contracts knowing how this was pulled together.

Now i have searched the owners name and I was shocked by what i found and now wondering if the whole company xoxo is just a scam to get new writers/authors/role players. No one has received any money because QUOTE BY EDITOR "Penny's husband as left her and taken all the money from xoxo" Penny is the submissions editor - operations editor.

[Stacia Kane]

Originally Posted by Payne

As far as I know it was original work from my friend their were only two people involved in the actual posting on face book herself and the xoxo editor. obviously behind the scenes there were more from other xoxo author rewriting the posts , to the cover designer, yes same one mention in earlier posts on this board. Even she has jumped on the band wagon and been sending threatening emails to my friend and to myself !! 0.0

Report those emails immediately to your email provider. Report them to hers as well.

No one has received any money because QUOTE BY EDITOR "Penny's husband as left her and taken all the money from xoxo" Penny is the submissions editor - operations editor.

Holy crap.

[Filigree]

Oh my. Yes, the direct threatening emails should be reported immediately. Depending on the state(s) you and she reside in, this could actually be a crime.

I still cannot imagine any situation in which I'd consider (much less sign) a contract for a story based off online gameplay, from a publisher I didn't research thoroughly first. They're counting on people being too flattered at the attention to look closely.

Payne, I'm sorry you are having to go through this, and I hope you and your friend come out okay.

[CherryD]

I do not now or ever work for XoXo Publishing. I wanted to make sure that was known before I post anything.


I am not sure of XoXo publishing creditably or policies. The following may be help to understand what you are dealing with at XoXo.

First off though, I would like it known That I am a Facebook Role Play Writer and at the very least I have one friend that "works" for XoXo. I found this thread when I went searching for answers that she did not provide.

Facebook Role Play Writers: A group of people that writes as characters from their favorite books or series.(Brotherhood,Dark Hunter)We are not affiliated with the respected authors (J.D.Ward,Sherrilyn Kenyon) as stated on their websites and our profiles.
Though we DO NOT own the charries, the stories we post in game DO belong to the player.
I hope that gives you all some understanding on FBRPW.

Now...

XoXo USA workers are FBRPW themselves. They also do not have a good understanding of how to work with their authors because they have been Rping with them and may not be able to truly separate the two.

I Do believe that XoXo is the start up company for these writers. I,my self have not been spoken to about my book in months. My book is a NON role play that my friend at XoXo asked me to published with them.

Cut n Paste Writing: If you worked with the editor to do this from the company AND you "cleaned" it up into a book by you (not another FBRPW)AND you have gotten the permission from the other "players" (RP authors) that THEIR postings are used. Then YES you can have it published as your book. IF you have not done as fore mentioned,then you AND your publisher (XoXo in these cases) better hope that the other playing authors did not keep copies of their work and don't buy your book.

ALWAYS KEEP IN MIND ONCE POSTED IT'S FAIR GAME!

Always Layman copyright your postings. (This does hold in court!)
Always Keep copies of your postings that mean something to you.

[Filigree]

I am awaiting more-expert analysis than I can provide. My gut feeling? Layman's Copyright might be a dangerous tactic when applied to derivative works. I also wonder what those writers could do if they set themselves to truly original work...and I'm an old fanfic writer from 1994!

[Stacia Kane]

Hi CherryD! Welcome to AW!

Originally Posted by CherryD

Facebook Role Play Writers: A group of people that writes as characters from their favorite books or series.(Brotherhood,Dark Hunter)We are not affiliated with the respected authors (J.D.Ward,Sherrilyn Kenyon) as stated on their websites and our profiles.
Though we DO NOT own the charries, the stories we post in game DO belong to the player.
I hope that gives you all some understanding on FBRPW.

So it's RPGing fanfic, basically?

XoXo is filing off the serial numbers on group fanfic games and publishing them as novels?

Now...

XoXo USA workers are FBRPW themselves. They also do not have a good understanding of how to work with their authors because they have been Rping with them and may not be able to truly separate the two.

I think there are a LOT of thing they don't have a good understanding of, frankly, and how to work with authors is at the lower end of that list.

Cut n Paste Writing: If you worked with the editor to do this from the company AND you "cleaned" it up into a book by you (not another FBRPW)AND you have gotten the permission from the other "players" (RP authors) that THEIR postings are used. Then YES you can have it published as your book.

IF you've made it unidentifiable as fanfic, AND if all the others have agreed IN WRITING to sign over their copyrights to you, then yes, it's more likely that there won't be an issue. Not guaranteed, but more likely. Not ethical, either.

No legitimate publisher would touch such a thing.

IF you have not done as fore mentioned,then you AND your publisher (XoXo in these cases) better hope that the other playing authors did not keep copies of their work and don't buy your book.

If you didn't get it in writing that they have signed over their copyrights to you, you mean.

I somehow don't see "I hope the people I stole from don't see how I stole from them" as the position from which I'd want to start my publishing career.

ALWAYS KEEP IN MIND ONCE POSTED IT'S FAIR GAME!

Nonsense. Fair game how? For whom? It most certainly is NOT fair game.

Always Layman copyright your postings. (This does hold in court!)

No. (I assume by "Layman copyright" you're referring to things like sending a paper copy to yourself in the mail?) If it holds in court at all it's simply because it's an utterly unnecessary step to proving copyright so nobody pays attention to it. It does nothing for you. It's pointless.

Works posted online are NOT "fair game." A work is copyrighted the second it is put into tangible or concrete form, i.e. once it is written down, once it is posted online, etc. It is automatically copyrighted. It belongs to its creator, its author, the person who snapped the picture or drew the image or whatever. They own it. It's theirs. No one else has the right to take it and claim it belongs to them instead. Period.

Sending copies to yourself or whatever is a waste of time and money. The work is not "fair game." It is copyrighted, and it is copyrighted to its author(s). This is why you must get in writing an agreement from all contributors that they are giving you their copyrights (and even then there may be issues; IANAL much less a Copyright/IP L).

Always Keep copies of your postings that mean something to you.

That's a good idea, though. You never know when a database or site could crash. Backups are always smart.

[CherryD]

Originally Posted by Payne

As far as I know it was original work from my friend their were only two people involved in the actual posting on face book herself and the xoxo editor. obviously behind the scenes there were more from other xoxo author rewriting the posts , to the cover designer, yes same one mention in earlier posts on this board. Even she has jumped on the band wagon and been sending threatening emails to my friend and to myself !! 0.0

Even the submissions editor, operations editor and Gina Cianfarani the owner of xoxo signed and drafted the contracts knowing how this was pulled together.

Now i have searched the owners name and I was shocked by what i found and now wondering if the whole company xoxo is just a scam to get new writers/authors/role players. No one has received any money because QUOTE BY EDITOR "Penny's husband as left her and taken all the money from xoxo" Penny is the submissions editor - operations editor.

If no one has been paid then I can tell you that at least one book cover editor would not be "working" there.

[Stacia Kane]

Originally Posted by Filigree

Layman's Copyright might be a dangerous tactic when applied to derivative works.

Excellent point.

[LindaJeanne]

Originally Posted by CherryD

I do not now or ever work for XoXo Publishing. I wanted to make sure that was known before I post anything.
...
at the very least I have one friend that "works" for XoXo. I found this thread when I went searching for answers that she did not provide.

Originally Posted by CherryD

If no one has been paid then I can tell you that at least one book cover editor would not be "working" there.

Originally Posted by Tiki20021

I am a book cover designer for the company (as we all know you like to know everything) and I do not do covers for a company unless they are a legit company.

CherryD, is Tiki20021 the friend you mentioned who "works" at XoXo?

[CherryD]

Originally Posted by Stacia Kane

Hi CherryD! Welcome to AW!




So it's RPGing fanfic, basically?

XoXo is filing off the serial numbers on group fanfic games and publishing them as novels?
To this Question I personally say yes. I think they are. while looking at the "ebooks" I found one of my story lines there under another name.



I think there are a LOT of thing they don't have a good understanding of, frankly, and how to work with authors is at the lower end of that list.
I was referring to the "workers" themselves not the company. I agree as a whole the "company" understands nothing. The name of the INC tells you that...Ninni.





IF you've made it unidentifiable as fanfic, AND if all the others have agreed IN WRITING to sign over their copyrights to you, then yes, it's more likely that there won't be an issue. Not guaranteed, but more likely. Not ethical, either.

No legitimate publisher would touch such a thing.
I agree, I still don't see it as writing myself but I wanted "Payne" to know what his friend could face by not doing the right steps. If XoXo is just a group of FBRPW trying to build a company because they have been turned down by others,then they should make that known to the other gamers they solicit. They should have made it known that all works they are "publishing" belong to a group and not an individual. Then a secondary author who doubles as their editor can "clean it up" for a book. XoXo would be solely responsible for those books and could/should only use them as free advertisement for the company. If an individual of the group decides to summit an original then it can be link to the group book.


If you didn't get it in writing that they have signed over their copyrights to you, you mean.

I somehow don't see "I hope the people I stole from don't see how I stole from them" as the position from which I'd want to start my publishing career.

It's not where I would start either.



Nonsense. Fair game how? For whom? It most certainly is NOT fair game.

Fair game for attack...we get it all the time.


No. (I assume by "Layman copyright" you're referring to things like sending a paper copy to yourself in the mail?) If it holds in court at all it's simply because it's an utterly unnecessary step to proving copyright so nobody pays attention to it. It does nothing for you. It's pointless.

Works posted online are NOT "fair game." A work is copyrighted the second it is put into tangible or concrete form, i.e. once it is written down, once it is posted online, etc. It is automatically copyrighted. It belongs to its creator, its author, the person who snapped the picture or drew the image or whatever. They own it. It's theirs. No one else has the right to take it and claim it belongs to them instead. Period.

Sending copies to yourself or whatever is a waste of time and money. The work is not "fair game." It is copyrighted, and it is copyrighted to its author(s). This is why you must get in writing an agreement from all contributors that they are giving you their copyrights (and even then there may be issues; IANAL much less a Copyright/IP L).

Who would do that? I have my stuff notarized after having my work stolen by an online company who is now trying to resign my work. Their right to my work has now expired.Your bank does it for free.


That's a good idea, though. You never know when a database or site could crash. Backups are always smart.

Thanks

[LindaJeanne]

Just realized that CherryD responded inside the quote; fixing the formatting here to make it easier to read . Please let me know if I mixed it up and misattributed something.

Originally Posted by Stacia Kane

So it's RPGing fanfic, basically?

XoXo is filing off the serial numbers on group fanfic games and publishing them as novels?

IF you've made it unidentifiable as fanfic, AND if all the others have agreed IN WRITING to sign over their copyrights to you, then yes, it's more likely that there won't be an issue. Not guaranteed, but more likely. Not ethical, either.

No legitimate publisher would touch such a thing.

If you didn't get it in writing that they have signed over their copyrights to you, you mean.

I somehow don't see "I hope the people I stole from don't see how I stole from them" as the position from which I'd want to start my publishing career.

Nonsense. Fair game how? For whom? It most certainly is NOT fair game.

No. (I assume by "Layman copyright" you're referring to things like sending a paper copy to yourself in the mail?) If it holds in court at all it's simply because it's an utterly unnecessary step to proving copyright so nobody pays attention to it. It does nothing for you. It's pointless.

Works posted online are NOT "fair game." A work is copyrighted the second it is put into tangible or concrete form, i.e. once it is written down, once it is posted online, etc. It is automatically copyrighted. It belongs to its creator, its author, the person who snapped the picture or drew the image or whatever. They own it. It's theirs. No one else has the right to take it and claim it belongs to them instead. Period.

Sending copies to yourself or whatever is a waste of time and money. The work is not "fair game." It is copyrighted, and it is copyrighted to its author(s). This is why you must get in writing an agreement from all contributors that they are giving you their copyrights (and even then there may be issues; IANAL much less a Copyright/IP L).

That's a good idea, though. You never know when a database or site could crash. Backups are always smart.