Sarah Book Publishing

[Donna Pudick]

Sure looks like that to me. Even scarier is that the author doesn't know what the retail price of the work will be, so the publisher has carte blanche in determining what that price is.

[aliceshortcake]

It sounds like amateur hour all round!

[Unimportant]

One of the (many) other things I found problematic with the contract is that there is nothing about the author working with an editor and performing the expected edits within an agreed-upon time frame. Rather, it says that the publisher has the right to edit the manuscript as they wish "provided the meaning of the text is not materially altered" (my bold) -- and at the same time states that the author will be held responsible for any copyright infringement issues.

[LindaJeanne]

Originally Posted by CherokeeParks

But here's the real deal, if you submit and are accepted, you can review the contract, or have your attorney review it, to your heart's content and negotiate to mutual satisfaction.

But the information they make publically available doesn't give me any reason to want to submit: their public face makes them look completely inexperienced, and the sample contract they show is so bad that I probably wouldn't bother trying to negotiate -- just a flat out no.

And your comments about "forming a partnership" worry me, because that's the sort of language that vanity presses that don't want to look like vanity presses use. I really hope your publisher isn't modeling themselves like-PA-except-not-a-scam. Because being a scam isn't the only problem with PA's business model. (In fact, PA's business model only works as a scam. Trying to emulate them as an honest, author-friendly business is doomed to failure).

Cherokee, if you do come back, I'm curious to know what it was that enticed you to submit to this publisher. What is it that we're all missing, that you saw BEFORE you became one of their authors, that made you want to submit your work to them? I think that would be useful information.

[Stacia Kane]

Originally Posted by Unimportant

One of the (many) other things I found problematic with the contract is that there is nothing about the author working with an editor and performing the expected edits within an agreed-upon time frame. Rather, it says that the publisher has the right to edit the manuscript as they wish "provided the meaning of the text is not materially altered" (my bold) -- and at the same time states that the author will be held responsible for any copyright infringement issues.

Yeah, that in itself is a HUGE problem. Nobody changes my text without my permission; it's my name on the cover, and every word, every comma, every period, is there for a reason.

[CherokeeParks]

A dear old friend called me just a few moments ago to tell me I really should make one more trip back to this post, in spite of have several grandchildren to handle tonight along wit a sick wife. So I'll make this very short.

Editing is done by a highly qualified member of the editing team. Not everyone who writes has the ability to do so with proper grammar, punctuation or spelling, or the ability to keep characters or scenarios straight. Yet among those people are what will become some pretty special authors, given a bit of coaching. EVERY author gets their ms sent back with edits, or with suggestions to make what they've written even better, to accept or reject as they see fit. EVERY author is entitled to two complete edits, critical if they decide to change a part of their story because they aren't happy with what they once were thrilled about.

What made me decide to sign with SBP? I had never seen their website, nor did I care to. I'm old school. After getting smacked around early in my writing career by slicksters and hustlers, I became far less trusting of anyone in the industry. I learned my lessons well, and paid a dear price as well. A manuscript was stolen from me by one of those shysters, and ended up selling nearly 300k copies, out of which I received zilch. From that point on, I was determined to never allow that to happen again. And I learned to read people through their eyes and movements. I had a little assistance along the way, as our government taught me how to profile, and I've put it to good use over the years.

Sanusi passed my profiling with flying colors. But I didn't stop there. I called in a few favors and had him thoroughly checked out, then visited a number of people who had experiences with him. When we met the second time, he answered every question I had just as I would have if the shoe had been on the other foot. Yes, that's not something most in here will ever have the chance to do. But that's what happened, why I signed, and why I will again.

I'm also mentoring several budding writers who show a real penchant for the craft that has been so good to me. They were rejected by SBP, various reasons, and Sanusi asked me to talk to them to see if I couldn't help. He saw talent in them, and wanted them to know he wasn't about to give up on them just because their skills were a bit short. One in particular is going back to school, after 3 tours in the Mid-East, and has shown remarkable progress in his writing. It's not a style I would ever use, but it's highly effective for him and makes for riveting reading. His once rejected manuscript is being rewritten, and he'll resubmit sometime this summer. I have zero doubt that this young Marine will be rejected again, and this old Marine is supporting his every effort to reach the skill level I know he has inside.

Well, here I said I would keep it short and I've rambled on a bit. I'll be back when I have a moment to browse around, maybe even leaving a comment now and again. I may even get back to this post if it isn't in the archives by then. Feliz Navidad, y todo vuestro ser palabras escritas resistir el paso del tiempo, llegan profundamente en los corazones y las mentes de sus lectores, y satisfacer y crear curiosidad.

[Filigree]

Thank you, Cherokee. Feliz Navidad, and may your collaboration with Sarah Book Publishing be lucrative and happy for you both.

[CherokeeParks]

BTW, Samantha, thanks for insulting my photography, as I took each of those photos used on my covers. Everything else done on the covers is be design familiarity - a common look from one of my books to the next with only the landscape changing to fit the region or area where the story takes place. Even S&S employed the same basic methods during my tenure with them. I'll surpass 35 titles sometime this next year, not counting the training and instruction manuals I've written. Besides, every author gets final approval of their cover before it goes to print, and that after working with the graphic artists/illustrators to develop their cover. I happen to like those covers of mine, and so do those who appreciate an old style Western.

[CherokeeParks]

Sorry for the typos tonight. Old tired eyes are giving me as much trouble as my old bent fingers.

[SamanthaLehane]

The photography is fine. The problem is with the design and typography.

[Donna Pudick]

I still don't like the part about the 100 copies.

[Filigree]

Previous message deleted. My explanation ran over-length. To be succinct: I found a lot of very interesting, publicly available information on SBP.

I deleted it because new writers should be learning to do their own research, I'm not getting paid for this, and I've been down this road before.

[aliceshortcake]

If a publisher wants to be taken seriously it shouldn't boast about silly faux awards for which its authors have been a "finalist" or "winner":

http://www.sarahbookpublishing.com/b...writing-award/

For a mere $69 your book can be a finalist in the Indie Excellence Awards! There are over 100 categories and most of them have at least four entries. Someone's making a tidy profit from entry fees alone, and the winners/finalists also have to pay for stickers with which to deface their book covers. Who's judging all these books?

We do not publish the names of the judges to respect their privacy.
http://www.indieexcellence.com/award-rules.htm

For all we know they could be drawing the winners' names out of a hat. Sarah Books, you're embarrassing yourselves.

As for the Sarah Books staff and their previous experience, I came across this interview with their General Manager Norma Castillo:

Norma Castillo graduated from the University of Texas/Pan American with a Major in Interdisciplinary Studies and a minor in Music. She taught Fine Arts for 10 years. She moved to Harlingen in 1995 and quit her teaching career in 2002 to pursue a career in Marketing, Public Relations and Sales. Norma became Vice-President of Public Relations and Marketing for Hino Electric Power Co. and excelled in her sales performance.


After proving herself to her boss in regards to the ability to market and sell electricity, she convinced him that it was time to grow into the McAllen area. Norma picked out a location, purchased the furniture, set up the IT crew and brought on a sales team. Sales were just incredible in the Rio Grande Valley.

In 2008, Norma became the Director of Marketing/Community Relations for Golden Palms Retirement and Healthcare. She planned numerous monthly events for the community and organized health fairs, mardi gras festivals, fiesta days for the Winter Texans to political forums here in the Texas Room.

Norma is now employed as Director of Marketing/Sales for RGV + Beyond Arts & More magazine and is the publishing manager for Sarah Book Publishing. Norma is a people person and is always eager to plan the next event.
http://thesop.org/story/20120521/jud...ublishing.html

I can't find anything about editor Kathleen Kearney.

[Theo81]

Originally Posted by CherokeeParks

As to the appearance of the website and how things are presented, great observations. I came to SBP as an author through a personal contact, and never bothered to look at their website until just this last Summer. But in looking at it with a critical eye, you are spot on. I'll make note of this in my first status report to the founder, which will come later this month as I evaluate what I'm seeing and hearing from this site as well as from other authors.

I'm not going to ask you again straight out. I can't remember which thread it was, but recently an author came to this board to explain how marvellous their publisher was and how we should all definitely submit there because they were absolutely brilliant. Ten minutes of Google-fu revealed them to be the brother of the owner/editor/another author. It doesn't look good when this kind of thing happens. You see:

Related? I most assuredly am not the publisher, and am connected as an author under contract, and as of yesterday as a consultant.

There's three hours between your telling us you were going to accept the job and you coming here to tell us you'd accepted it. I'll trust what you've told us, but it feels like there is something you aren't mentioning - whether it's that you're also good friends, that you've been neighbours for twenty years, whatever - I don't know why you'd speak for this publisher in the way you have been doing, but I also know that could just be who you are.
I don't want something to be mentioned later you had the opportunity to mention here.

You misread me as badly as I did you, Theo81. I am too old to care about points or games. I simply tell it like it is, and THAT is a definite part of my "code". The consulting I'm doing is an evaluation of what needs fixed and/or improved, including the submission and review process.

I don't know that I've misread you, but I know you've misread me. For a start you think I'm male. Don't worry about it, it happens.

MY website is just the way I want it, but I'll recommend that the publisher make what we both consider necessary changes to HIS website. Fair enough?

Your website doesn't have anything to do with anything. This is a thread about Sarah Book Publishing - not you, your books (except as far as comments about the quality of the editing goes), not your website, not your photography skills (which are fine, but I - speaking as a person who occasionally manages to get paid for doing that kind of thing - would say they aren't great images for book covers). Unless SBP created it for you, and then I would have some comments.

Now, I don't know how enormous you are, but I'm pretty good sized myself.

I'm nobody.

Originally Posted by CherokeeParks

As for Theo81's complaint about not seeing book titles, apparently he didn't really look around the site very much. Each of the sister sites are designed in the same manner to create a flow from one to the next. There is a shopping cart in the upper corner, as well as a "carousel" with 10 titles featured and a link to the "shopping area" of the site. Just scroll down the home page a bit and there it is.

I found the separate shop site. That should be the main SBP page, not all the gubbins about achieving my publishing goals. A publisher sells books to people.

Those still concerned with the "No Up-Front" statements, a simple look at the sample contract should put your minds at ease.

I'm glad everybody else went over it. I didn't like that contract but I don't know enough about them to put an opinion on a message board.

The structure of this group is unlike any other in the publishing business that I've seen, and it works. What more can I say?

You can say why SBP is a good choice over another publisher. Here's a reason for you:

"SBP is a Texas based publisher with strong local links for book promotion. If you are writing novels set in Texas, we are a great choice!"

Now, I don't know if that's true, I'm going on what I'd say about publishers like Seren or Y Llolfa (but I'd substitute Wales for Texas, obviously).

Originally Posted by CherokeeParks

Criticizing the business model is also a questionable act. The same model has been used effectively in his medical practice, his real estate ventures, and every other area of interest he has. So why would someone who can make money at so many other things invest so much in a publishing company, especially when the track record for new publishing companies is so dismal?

No, it isn't. I am very familiar with a variety of real estate business models - I can't think how they would transfer to publishing, let alone medicine, except in the most general of ways.

Passion. Pure and simple. He loves promoting all the arts, and as a fellow author who has been beaten to shreds by the unseemly in the industry, he decided to invest his money in a place where the author can get a fair shake and be treated with respect. The growing family of authors and literary agents is testimony to the fact that it's working. End of story.

There are hundreds of publishers where the author gets a fair shake and gets treated with respect. If an author doesn't feel enough respect, they are free to go elsewhere.

Originally Posted by CherokeeParks

Victoria, every author has the OPTION to purchase as many books as they wish, at 40% off retail for paperbacks and 30% off retail for hardcovers, and are given a 60 day line of credit in which to pay for those books. One gentleman recently purchased 250 in groups of 100, 100 and 50 along with his stipend, free invitations, flyers and banner and held his own book signings since he lives some distance from the SBP headquarters and decided not to have SBP staff make the trips to sponsor those events (very considerate of him). In a 3 week period, he sold all 250 and pocketed well over $1600, and just ordered another 200. All this is on top of the royalties he's earned on a nearly identical number of books sold by SBP and on Amazon. The book was released just over a month ago, and shows signs of gaining even more momentum. That's just one example of someone who isn't depending on SBP to do all the marketing and sales, and why that option is available. I've even used it successfully myself.

So sales of 250 in three weeks is, I assume as you're using him as an example, considered very successful for SBP. Useful to know.

Seriously, people, I have to retire myself from this post. I've got 3 MSS working I need to complete, including the next in a series along with a storyline for the following MS in that series and concepts for another dozen or so I need to get started on. "Plan your work and work your plan - as long as you're right and tight with your muse you'd better take advantage of it."

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

Thant's okay. This thread will still be here after Christmas.

Originally Posted by CherokeeParks

A dear old friend called me just a few moments ago to tell me I really should make one more trip back to this post, in spite of have several grandchildren to handle tonight along wit a sick wife. So I'll make this very short.

I'm sorry your wife is ill - it's always difficult to be ill over Christmas.

You aren't obliged to post in this thread. If you think it's necessary that SBP answer questions and represent their position, I suggest you ring Dr Sanusi and tell him that - as his consultant - you think he should come and do it. Either that or leave us to it. Questions can stand unanswered and people will make up their own minds.

Editing is done by a highly qualified member of the editing team. Not everyone who writes has the ability to do so with proper grammar, punctuation or spelling, or the ability to keep characters or scenarios straight. Yet among those people are what will become some pretty special authors, given a bit of coaching. EVERY author gets their ms sent back with edits, or with suggestions to make what they've written even better, to accept or reject as they see fit. EVERY author is entitled to two complete edits, critical if they decide to change a part of their story because they aren't happy with what they once were thrilled about.

That's like saying not every doctor has the ability to not faint at the sight of blood. There are certain skills one needs to learn in order to do a particular job - spelling, grammar, plot structure, and character development are all things a writer has to learn.

Also, you shouldn't need to emphasise the EVERY author part - there is no MS which is flawless. They should be editing everybody.

What made me decide to sign with SBP? I had never seen their website, nor did I care to. I'm old school. After getting smacked around early in my writing career by slicksters and hustlers, I became far less trusting of anyone in the industry. I learned my lessons well, and paid a dear price as well. A manuscript was stolen from me by one of those shysters, and ended up selling nearly 300k copies, out of which I received zilch. From that point on, I was determined to never allow that to happen again. And I learned to read people through their eyes and movements. I had a little assistance along the way, as our government taught me how to profile, and I've put it to good use over the years.

Sanusi passed my profiling with flying colors. But I didn't stop there. I called in a few favors and had him thoroughly checked out, then visited a number of people who had experiences with him. When we met the second time, he answered every question I had just as I would have if the shoe had been on the other foot. Yes, that's not something most in here will ever have the chance to do. But that's what happened, why I signed, and why I will again.

My Dad did behavioural science at University (a very well respected one). His class were given a task in the third year - they all had to mock interview the university porter and find out everything they could about him. Not a single one of them managed to find out he'd been in prison 20 years earlier.

Even if profiling wasn't capable of being misdirected, or effected by things like people having a male name rather than a female one, it's not going to tell you if Dr Sanusi is any good at publishing. At best it can tell you he thinks he is.


For now, I don't see a single tangible reason why a writer with no Texas connections should send work to this publisher. Even with a Texas connection, I think there are better choices out there.

[aliceshortcake]

CherokeeParks:
He loves promoting all the arts, and as a fellow author who has been beaten to shreds by the unseemly in the industry, he decided to invest his money in a place where the author can get a fair shake and be treated with respect.

I overlooked this bit and thought it was worthy of comment. PublishAmerica and iUniverse aren't so much "the unseemly in the industry" as "not part of the real industry"; they don't represent the world of publishing but the Bizarro World of publishing. The ambiguity about whether SBP's authors have to buy their own books, the "one big happy family" vibe, the trumpeting of meaningless "awards"...I'm sorry, but there's a distinct whiff of PublishAmerica about it all.

CherokeeParks:
They are not a vanity or self-publishing company

SBP themselves don't seem to know whether they're a self-publishing company or not. If they aren't, it might be advisable to remove or rewrite the following:

Sarah Book Publishing is a self publisher with a traditional touch. Sarah Book Publishing prides itself on working with writers to publish quality books. Unlike many of the online self publishers, Sarah Book Publishing requires no money up front and strives to find exceptional material to publish.
http://thesop.org/story/20120521/jud...ublishing.html

Even SBP's own Facebook says they're a self-publisher:

About
Sarah Book Publishing is a self publisher with a traditional touch.
Description
Sarah Book Publishing prides itself on working with writers to publish quality books. Unlike many of the online self publishers, Sarah Book Publishing requires no money up front and strives to find exceptional material to publish.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sarah-...3731970?v=info

The blurb (if that's the right word) for the SBP video on YouTube, dailymotion and Vimeo also uses the words "a self publisher with a traditional touch".

[aliceshortcake]

From one of SBP's horribly written, Weirdly Capitalized press releases (my bolding):

Your Success Is Our Story

We Have A Strong Believe in Your Work That Is Why We Market it

SBP doesn't even proofread its own press releases.

We Screen Manuscripts
We Edit Manuscripts
We Advise on Style and Content
We Do Superb Typesetting
We Proof-Read
We Design Covers
We Have Books Available At Major Outlets

"Typesetting"? Doesn't the company use digital printing? And do these "major outlets" include Barnes and Noble or other large bookstores?

We Arrange Book Signings for Local Authors
We Assist you with Materials for Book Signings

Does the author have to pay for these materials?

We Give you Line of Credit to Purchase Your Book

That would INSTANTLY put me off having anything to do with SBP.

We Market You And Your Brand Of Writing

Is this the sort of marketing that actually sells books?

We Ship Free All Year Round From Our Website
We are Affiliated With Major Media Outlets

Which major media outlets are these?

We are NOT VANITY PRESS. WE DON'T CHARGE YOU A DIME UPFRONT.

WE DO ALL THESE JUST FOR YOU

We are a publishing company that is out there to help you realize your dream. We take all the risks. You take the royalties.

They're taking risks to make my dream come true! More PA/vanity phraseology.

We Are A Publishing Company With A difference.
We don't judge your work based on market analysis and potential sales
We don't judge your work based on your name and popularity
We don't judge you and place you on a long queue of "wannabe" for months.
We don't judge you based on probability of been a best seller
We practically give you a chance to work with our crew to achieve your dreams
WE ACCEPT YOU THE WAY YOU ARE. WE WORK WITH YOU AND EDIT YOUR BOOK. WE ACCEPT YOU BECAUSE YOU CAME TO US.

When We Publish your work we treat you like family.

ITS A DONE DEAL. WE BELIEVE IN YOUR FRIENDSHIP AND TRUST WITH A HANDSHAKE.

One misunderstanding after another about how real publishing works combined with the happy family/we're your friends spiel. And with a contract like the one SBP uses as a sample the words "trust with a handshake" are rather unfortunate.

A Full Concierge Affair
Buy from our website for a full concierge service. We pay for your shipping. www.sarahbookpublishing.com
http://community.benchmarkemail.com/...OOK-PUBLISHING

What does "concierge service" mean in relation to publishing?!

Anyway, there are more red flags here than in a soviet-era May Day Parade. I can't imagine why any writer would think SDP was an attractive proposition.

[priceless1]

CherokeeParks, you mentioned book signings and store placement, but I did a quick scan of SBP, and have some concerns. A number of books aren't listed in Bookscan at all. Those that are listed show B&N distribution center as the "distributor," and have 0 sales. This means there are no sales teams out there pitching SBP's cataloge to genre buyers. This indicates there is extremely limited store placement, except what the publisher can personally get into stores.

The Feature Title listed on SBP's site - The Big Spin - was pubbed in 2011, is only available on Amazon through other sellers, is listed on Bookscan with 0 sales.

It's common that publisher's sites have the ISBN listed, but I had to hunt them down on Amazon, so I could look them up on Bookscan.

Additionally the physical titles I checked on Amazon aren't even available through Amazon; they're only available through other sellers. Direct selling with Amazon is a rudimentary part of business.

My point is that all the mass emails to target audiences and radio interviews will go for naught if the book isn't available in the bookstore. I realize Amazon has cut a huge path into where books are sold, but after ten years in this business, the primary orgin of sales of our books still takes place in bookstores...something that appears closed to SBP books. The idea is to make books available as much as possible. I'm confused that he's shouldering all the production costs, along with marketing and promotion, yet his books are most easily bought on their site. How do they stay in business?

As has already been pointed out, their website is geared to writers, not buyers, so what elements will drive buyers to this site in order to buy books?

Authors sign with publishers because they have the ability to get books sold in the marketplace, so one has to ask what makes this company a logical choice given they have no distribution and a serious lack of availability. How could they do all this marketing and promotion for their authors, yet buyers can barely find their books? It doesn't make sense.

From what I can discern from your statments that authors are buying their own books, this is how they stay in business, so it's a back-end vanity press. This makes sense and helps me understand why they have no distribution or real marketing footprint.

[aliceshortcake]

Yes, it's beginning to look a lot like Christmas as though the only way for their authors to sell books is to buy them from the publisher and re-sell them...which is apparently what happens, even though the SPB contract says that they're not allowed to do so! I can't think of any other reason why SPB Books are almost invisible to the marketplace. It's High Hill Press all over again.

[priceless1]

Aliceshortcake, it's nearly impossible for a publisher to know whether their authors are selling their own books or not. I've gone to any number of private author talks where the author sold their books at the back of the room, and I knew full well they weren't supposed to. But who's to know?

In truth, those private sales aren't a blip on the publisher's radar because they're too busy making real sales in bookstores.

[James D. Macdonald]

Phrases like "We Have Books Available At Major Outlets" are sadly ambiguous.

There's a difference between "available" sitting right there on the shelf and "available" if you step to the Special Order desk with your credit card in your hand.

All too often, when we see a publisher say "your books will be available" at thus-and-such a physical bookstore, the author thinks of "available" in the first sense, while the publisher means "available" in the second.

[aliceshortcake]

CherokeeParks:
Editing is done by a highly qualified member of the editing team.

The only person on the SBP staff described as an editor is Kathleen Kearney, and I was unable to find any information about her qualifications or previous experience. At least one SBP book, the "award-winning" author of which gave himself a 4 star review on Amazon, doesn't read as if it was edited to a professional standard.

[Stacia Kane]

Originally Posted by CherokeeParks

A dear old friend called me just a few moments ago to tell me I really should make one more trip back to this post, in spite of have several grandchildren to handle tonight along wit a sick wife. So I'll make this very short.

I sincerely hope your wife is feeling better, and that you're having a lovely time with your (undoubtedly adorable) grandchildren!

Editing is done by a highly qualified member of the editing team. Not everyone who writes has the ability to do so with proper grammar, punctuation or spelling, or the ability to keep characters or scenarios straight. Yet among those people are what will become some pretty special authors, given a bit of coaching. EVERY author gets their ms sent back with edits, or with suggestions to make what they've written even better, to accept or reject as they see fit. EVERY author is entitled to two complete edits, critical if they decide to change a part of their story because they aren't happy with what they once were thrilled about.

So only two edits are done for everyone, regardless of whether the book needs further work? Is whatever state the book is in at the end of that second edit then considered final? Is that two rounds total, or is that two editing rounds prior to copyediting?

One of my editors had had the final, edited copy of one of my books for several months when I decided I still wasn't happy with it. I asked for and got permission to rewrite it again before copyedits. If I'd only been permitted exactly two edits, there would have been a problem; editing shouldn't be based on a specific number, but on working until the book is as good as it can be.

My concern isn't editing in itself. Of course books are edited (at least we certainly hope they will be). The issue is that per the contract SBP can make changes to the text without the author's permission. Saying "provided the meaning of the text isn't materially altered" doesn't make that any better. Nobody should be changing anything in the text without the author's approval. Again, it's my book. It's my name on the cover. Every sentence, every word, every letter, every comma, every period, should be mine, and printed exactly the way I wrote it.


BTW, are you saying with the above that SBP is accepting books for publication in which there are issues not just with the writing, but in which there are major structural issues--characters not kept straight, story arcs going nowhere or changing mid-book, that sort of thing? Books which are not ready for publication, in other words. That would seem to confirm that they are more of a self-publishing outfit than a commercial press.

[Donna Pudick]

Went to the website today and didn't see any mention of self-publishing. Am I missing something or have they changed it? Facebook page is sketchy and doesn't mention it either.

[aliceshortcake]

The website doesn't mention self-publishing. If you click "about" on their Facebook you'll find that it's still mentioned.

[Donna Pudick]

Thanks. I'll check it out. I did a little shopping around and found that a few of their books are listed for sale on the B & N website. I also noticed that the owner has HIS books for sale directly from amazon, but many of the other authors' books are not. The exceptions were few. Sales were dismal.