my "prologue" might be way too long

Zoro · Jan 29, 2013

Not sure if this is the right place within the forum to post this, but I have a question about story plotting in my completed fantasy novel(s). Basically I start the opening novel, and semi-completed series, off from the view-point of a character that is not one of my primary view-point characters (at least for the lion`s share of book 1,2,3,and 4, lol) I know this is done plenty of times as prologues (the prologue in the Game of Thrones for example). My issue however, is that I just might have too much written to legitimately label it as simply one prologue/one chapter.

In way of explanation, I have as much as I do from this character`s viewpoint in the very beginning, in my probably flawed way of thinking, for several reasons:

1. I wanted to set the scene at the start of the book with a punch, an invasion from an invading/conquering nation (think the Roman Empire`s foray into Britain), but my main character(s) are either not born yet, or simply at that time out of the picture.
2. This invasion is about 20 years prior to the meat of my story (i.e. after the “prologue” there is a 20 year time skip), as I really wanted to establish a clear picture of the grim realities of a twenty year occupation (what was lost as compared to the brutal reality later), so it`s that much more fulfilling when certain individuals step into the fray to either change or stubbornly maintain such a brutal occupation.
3. I also wanted to show the birth of one of my main characters, as the circumstances, and implications of that birth are not only directly related to the invasion 20 years previous, but they are fundamental aspects of this individual`s character
4. There are a few other reasons that I, rightly or wrongly, am having difficulty dropping any more of this material (this character for instance is not simply a throw away character; she is not only mentioned several times in the following book, and books, but she comes into play again with some significance in the 4th book). But, I think for the most part I`ve made my point.

I have whittled out a good chunk from what was originally in my “prologue”, but I`m not sure what direction to take now. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Kerosene · Jan 29, 2013

IMO, a prologue isn't chapter one, so it shouldn't act as chapter one, and I believe that it shouldn't act as a hook (it can, sure. But many readers skip the prologue altogether, so relying on it can be a mistake).

I can see why you want to use it to convey the setting, but if that's boring the reader might not read it, and they might start reading from your prologue... and never make it to the story. And typically, the prologue conveys something completely different than the opening chapter.

If/when you get 50+ posts, you can put it up in the SYW forums, but typically most people say the prologue isn't needed.

My definition of a prologue is:
Concise. I make it as short as possible.
It is used to only convey information to the reader before the story starts, but should not be part of the story (nor anything should weigh on it).
It's a parting gift before the story starts, nothing more.

My thoughts.

EMaree · Jan 29, 2013

Does your story need the prologue? If so, keep it. If not, consider scrapping it.

WillSauger covered everything well, so I'm just going to make a few minor points:

-- You compared your different viewpoint prologue to Game of Thrones. Is your story written in third person? It's more difficult to pull this off in first person.
-- When you say you think it's too long, how long are we talking (and how long compared to your normal chapters)? Can you edit it down?
-- You said you did it to start the book 'with a punch'. Your story needs to be gripping throughout, so make sure the first chapters after the prologue also hook the reader. If you're using the prologue to distract from a less exciting/interesting first chapter, then your first chapter is the problem.

I'm also uneasy about using the first pages of your book to introduce a character who only appears in a major role in book four, but hey, it could work (and it did work in Game of Thrones, but Game of Thrones also manages to juggle a size of cast that most writers would struggle with).

Sonsofthepharaohs · Jan 29, 2013

How long is this 'prologue'? Coz to me, it doesn't sound like a prologue at all, and more some sort of 'part 1' to be honest. If your story starts with the invasion, but then there's a 20 year gap where nothing happens, then dividing the book into two and calling the invasion/occupation stuff part one might be the perfect solution.

But be careful you're not just using it to info dump a load of backstory. Is there an actual plot to the invasion section of the story? Do the characters/themes/events carry into the main part of the story that occurs 20 years later? If there's continuity and the 'present day' cannot be fully understood without knowing what happened 20 years prior, then I'd definitely call it part 1.

Writelock · Jan 29, 2013

The first rule of writing I always follow (lifted from Elmore Leonard) is edit out the pieces that the reader tends to skip anyway. As already pointed out, many readers skip the prologue. Personally, I think what you described is in danger of becoming an info dump and would most likely be something the reader skimmed and plowed through on their way towards the real story. As I haven't seen the work, this is only a guess, but isn't there a better way to accomplish this? I've often found what I begin as a info dump becomes told through the character's actions and dialogue sprinkled liberally throughout the story.

~N

shadowwalker · Jan 29, 2013

Based on your description of content, time-frame, and characters, it sounds like a prologue. Now, length only really matters if it gets to be of gargantuan proportions. You really don't want to call a novella-length piece a prologue. I don't know of any actual rule for length, but personally, I wouldn't want it to be more than my typical chapter length. But what really counts, as others have mentioned, is whether or not this is an info-dump. That's bad no matter what part of the book it's in.

jjdebenedictis · Jan 29, 2013

I always read prologues; just want to wave that pro-prologue flag a little.

Tanya Huff's book The Last Wizard starts with a pretty involved story that takes place years before the main character is even born. In a sense, it's all backstory, or a big-ass prologue, but she dramatizes the events, presents a plot, and makes the characters in it as engaging as those in later parts of the book.

That false prologue makes up roughly a third of her book, and it's a great story all by its own. So no matter how big your prologue is, if you hook the reader's interest and keep them entertained, they aren't going to complain.

But maybe you want to call it Chapter 1 or Book 1, just to keep people off your back about prologues.

SelmaW · Jan 29, 2013

I always read prologues, but I agree with Neporsche - it sounds like you have a ton of background information and are looking for an easy way to get it to the reader. I don't think it's necessarily a terrible idea to do that through a prologue, but be wary.

Zach Lancer · Jan 29, 2013

I also read prologues every time, It's quite a suprise to hear that some readers skip them. In any case, others have already covered the essentials, but I'd like to add something about a risk that I see in the OP:s description: if you start from the invasion, you risk your readers getting engaged with the story of the invasion, not of the occupation. What if your readers would have rather kept on reading about the invasion? They'll be disappointed with the time skip.

Without reading your story, I'd say that in general it isn't essential to see how the occupation came to be to get the reader to understand the change it has effected on the society in question and the emotional atmosphere. But that's just how I see it. Just think about what the purpose of the prologue is in this story, and consider if the current solution is the best one available.

Krazykat · Jan 29, 2013

I think this can work, provided, as others have said, that it's a strong dramatic scene rather than an infodump. But it might not really be a prologue.

In one of my novels, the first three chapters—14k words that make up 40 pages in manuscript format—also take place roughly twenty years before the rest of the novel, right before the protagonist is born. The POV character is the protagonist's mother. But I don't call it a prologue—it's Part One of a book that's divided into parts.

Now the successive parts are longer and all have the same POV, so in a sense Part One is somewhat like a prologue, but I wouldn't say it's the same thing. Although it's shorter, it probably has more in common with the example jjdebenedictis gave of the first third of Tanya Huff's Last Wizard (though I haven't read that one myself).

My reasons for starting with a different POV character included the fact that what the protagonist's mother does and what happens to her are the catalysts for the novel; they're the reason the protagonist is in the situation he's in, and the reason he's the person he is. His mother is also a very strong character—everyone who's read the book has said the opening section is very good, and one of the reasons was that they all loved that character.

However, I'm also very aware that there are risks involved when you use an unconventional structure like this. Precisely because my book starts with a strong, appealing character, some readers are going to be frustrated or disappointed when they get to Part Two and discover the story is about someone else. (They may not appreciate the fact that the character they've been bonding with for three chapters is out of the picture!)

But I think it can be said that any time you deviate from a conventional structure with a straightforward chronological narrative and one POV character, you're taking risks. Some readers may love it, but there will always be some people who are bothered by those deviations. (Which naturally also means that some agents and editors might be put off as well, making it potentially harder to sell.)

This is a more extreme example, but if you look at A Canticle for Leibowitz, you have a book with three parts with huge gaps of time between them, and different characters in each part. Granted, some would say it's more like three novellas linked by a very broad story arc. But the point is that there are many different ways to structure a novel. And if it's well done, and it really adds something meaningful to the novel, the payoffs may be worth the risk of doing something unconventional.

Zoro · Jan 30, 2013

WillSauger said:
IMO, a prologue isn't chapter one, so it shouldn't act as chapter one, and I believe that it shouldn't act as a hook (it can, sure. But many readers skip the prologue altogether, so relying on it can be a mistake).

I can see why you want to use it to convey the setting, but if that's boring the reader might not read it, and they might start reading from your prologue... and never make it to the story. And typically, the prologue conveys something completely different than the opening chapter.

If/when you get 50+ posts, you can put it up in the SYW forums, but typically most people say the prologue isn't needed.

My definition of a prologue is:
Concise. I make it as short as possible.
It is used to only convey information to the reader before the story starts, but should not be part of the story (nor anything should weigh on it).
It's a parting gift before the story starts, nothing more.

My thoughts.

First, thanks all for the responses, they are all hugely appreciated.

To be honest I have only chosen the label here of “prologue” as I really didn’t know what else to call it. And after reading through some of the responses that were posited it probably is actually more suitable as a part one kind of thing.

Also, it starts off with, and is primarily taken up by a significant action scene (i.e. I don’t think it should come off as boring or as an info-dump – I was very mindful of show not tell, especially in my completed revisions).

And I definitely am on the same page with you when it comes to my own definition of prologue, hence my hitch when it comes to its conciseness (I don’t have the word count at the moment as I`m at work, but comparatively it works out to about two/three “chapters” worth of material).

And I will for sure put it up, or at least some incarnation of it, in SYW once I hit 50.

Zoro · Jan 30, 2013

EMaree said:
Does your story need the prologue? If so, keep it. If not, consider scrapping it.

WillSauger covered everything well, so I'm just going to make a few minor points:

-- You compared your different viewpoint prologue to Game of Thrones. Is your story written in third person? It's more difficult to pull this off in first person.
-- When you say you think it's too long, how long are we talking (and how long compared to your normal chapters)? Can you edit it down?
-- You said you did it to start the book 'with a punch'. Your story needs to be gripping throughout, so make sure the first chapters after the prologue also hook the reader. If you're using the prologue to distract from a less exciting/interesting first chapter, then your first chapter is the problem.

I'm also uneasy about using the first pages of your book to introduce a character who only appears in a major role in book four, but hey, it could work (and it did work in Game of Thrones, but Game of Thrones also manages to juggle a size of cast that most writers would struggle with).

Not really knowing at this point what to call it, I believe the material is fairly necessary for all of the following: character building(integral to the motivations and future of a main character), world building (along with the invasion situation, it sets up and introduces an integral race of people), and plot (future realities rest on a lot of what happens in these sections).

Yes, it`s written in 3rd. And what originally was about 3 or 4 chapters worth of material has been whittled down to 2 or 3. What`s left admittedly I am fairly married to

. I also see what you are saying about the first chapter, but though it does have a somewhat different tone, I don’t think it is any less interesting/exciting and in need of some distraction (that being said of course I could be wrong)

Zoro · Jan 30, 2013

Kallithrix said:
How long is this 'prologue'? Coz to me, it doesn't sound like a prologue at all, and more some sort of 'part 1' to be honest. If your story starts with the invasion, but then there's a 20 year gap where nothing happens, then dividing the book into two and calling the invasion/occupation stuff part one might be the perfect solution.

But be careful you're not just using it to info dump a load of backstory. Is there an actual plot to the invasion section of the story? Do the characters/themes/events carry into the main part of the story that occurs 20 years later? If there's continuity and the 'present day' cannot be fully understood without knowing what happened 20 years prior, then I'd definitely call it part 1.

I was careful to stay away from any kind of info-dump, and there is definitely a plot to the section, with characters (not until book 4 with any significance to be fair), theme, and events that do carry on into the main part.

"If there's continuity and the 'present day' cannot be fully understood without knowing what happened 20 years prior, then I'd definitely call it part 1"
Definitely this

.

EMaree · Jan 30, 2013

Sounds like your instincts are telling you to keep this first section.

Best to trust them, you know the story better than any of us casual observers.

Zoro · Jan 30, 2013

jjdebenedictis said:
I always read prologues; just want to wave that pro-prologue flag a little.

Tanya Huff's book The Last Wizard starts with a pretty involved story that takes place years before the main character is even born. In a sense, it's all backstory, or a big-ass prologue, but she dramatizes the events, presents a plot, and makes the characters in it as engaging as those in later parts of the book.

That false prologue makes up roughly a third of her book, and it's a great story all by its own. So no matter how big your prologue is, if you hook the reader's interest and keep them entertained, they aren't going to complain.

But maybe you want to call it Chapter 1 or Book 1, just to keep people off your back about prologues.

Thanks for the nod to Tanya Huff`s book. It really reads like exactly what I am trying to do with my own “prologue” (whether I have been successful at it of course is another question altogether

). So it made me feel a good part better about my own situation.

Also, I am waving that flag right along with you. I never skip prologues

Zoro · Jan 30, 2013

Zach Lancer said:
...I'd like to add something about a risk that I see in the OP:s description: if you start from the invasion, you risk your readers getting engaged with the story of the invasion, not of the occupation. What if your readers would have rather kept on reading about the invasion? They'll be disappointed with the time skip...

It is something I have thought about myself, but I think it works (unbiased as I am

) in regards to this issue. It also sets up a nice surprise in book 4 when certain characters from this section show up again in the main characters life, throwing a lot of things for an interesting loop.

Zoro · Jan 30, 2013

Krazykat said:
...My reasons for starting with a different POV character included the fact that what the protagonist's mother does and what happens to her are the catalysts for the novel; they're the reason the protagonist is in the situation he's in, and the reason he's the person he is. His mother is also a very strong character—everyone who's read the book has said the opening section is very good, and one of the reasons was that they all loved that character...

My own intentions, regarding motivation and catalysts, are similar to this.

Zoro · Jan 31, 2013

EMaree said:
Sounds like your instincts are telling you to keep this first section. Best to trust them, you know the story better than any of us casual observers.

Thanks Emaree

. Once i get to 50 posts I intend on putting the first bit up on SYW for some feedback, and to see if it works for what I intend

quicklime · Feb 1, 2013

Kallithrix said:
How long is this 'prologue'? Coz to me, it doesn't sound like a prologue at all, and more some sort of 'part 1' to be honest. If your story starts with the invasion, but then there's a 20 year gap where nothing happens, then dividing the book into two and calling the invasion/occupation stuff part one might be the perfect solution.

But be careful you're not just using it to info dump a load of backstory. Is there an actual plot to the invasion section of the story? Do the characters/themes/events carry into the main part of the story that occurs 20 years later? If there's continuity and the 'present day' cannot be fully understood without knowing what happened 20 years prior, then I'd definitely call it part 1.

all of this. There are a lot of books out there (The Dark Tower, the Strain series, even Frankenstein come to mind) where the story includes prior information, but that doesn't mean we get a long prologue about Victor Frankenstein as a youth, or Humbert Humbert's ill-fated tryst with a young girl in Europe who later died, or the Master's origin story, as a prologue.

KateJJ · Feb 1, 2013

I always read prologues. I do like them to be related to the book, or at least not leave me saying "Well, that was a waste of time." On the other hand, I shouldn't come out saying "wait, I wanted to read that story, not this other one."

I read a book one time... Conquistador, by SM Stirling, I think. The prologue was this WW2 vet arriving in San Francisco and finding a portal to another world. Then the book skipped ahead 60 years and started going on about this EPA officer who gets pulled through the portal and finds the mini empire the dude from the prologue set up. The book was interesting, but I'd been all excited to read the story of the first guy, the one who found the portal, see how he set up his society, explore that idea. And I got something else entirely.

So it's a fine line to walk...

Zoro · Feb 1, 2013

quicklime said:
all of this. There are a lot of books out there (The Dark Tower, the Strain series, even Frankenstein come to mind) where the story includes prior information, but that doesn't mean we get a long prologue about Victor Frankenstein as a youth, or Humbert Humbert's ill-fated tryst with a young girl in Europe who later died, or the Master's origin story, as a prologue.

Thank you for your feedback. I get what you are saying and I totally agree. I don't think what I have comes off like the more negative examples of possible prologues you point to. But, that being said I am obviously far from objective in this ... so I am prepared to be very wrong

.

Zoro · Feb 1, 2013

KateJJ said:
I always read prologues. I do like them to be related to the book, or at least not leave me saying "Well, that was a waste of time." On the other hand, I shouldn't come out saying "wait, I wanted to read that story, not this other one."

Thanks so much for your response. This is definitely something I have thought about, but I don't think (or maybe hope not

) this is the case with what I have.

Zoro · Feb 1, 2013

Now that I am above 50 posts, I am going to put the first section of this material up in SYW. Everybody here has been so helpful already, but if people were willing to take a look at what I have, and give me some solid feedback either way, it would be massively appreciated.

my "prologue" might be way too long

Zoro

Kerosene

Your Pixie Queen

EMaree

a demon for tea

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Writelock

Tribal Wanderer

shadowwalker

empty-nester!

jjdebenedictis

is watching you via her avatar

SelmaW

Follow your heart; take your brain

Zach Lancer

Krazykat

Positivilly Movillis . . .

Zoro

Zoro

Zoro

EMaree

a demon for tea

Zoro

Zoro

Zoro

Zoro

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

KateJJ

coffee and pistols at dawn

Zoro

Zoro

Zoro