"Mommy Porn" -- Cute and harmless, or insulting and degrading?

mrsvalkyrie said:

I just want to know where everyone is seeing that it means women shouldn't look at porn.

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I wish I could remember the particular article that discussed this point. I read several reviews and articles. Opinions vary widely! Which is fine.

However, this is an interesting review on this point:

http://www.booksnreview.com/articles/461/20120709/fifty-shades-grey-e-l-james-hates-mummy-porn.htm


My growing view is that the need to dub an erotic story with the warm nuance of the label "mummy" suggests a desire on the labeller to make it more acceptable, i.e. it needs to be made acceptable. And one reason why it needs to be made acceptable is because women are reading it in great numbers. But it is a cynical view. The originator of the term probably had no deep meaning in mind. Maybe they discovered a mother had written it and labelled it mummy porn for that reason.

Interesting though that the author apparently hates the label.

kaylastonor said:

My growing view is that the need to dub an erotic story with the warm nuance of the label "mummy" suggests a desire on the labeller to make it more acceptable, i.e. it needs to be made acceptable. And one reason why it needs to be made acceptable is because women are reading it in great numbers. But it is a cynical view. The originator of the term probably had no deep meaning in mind. Maybe they discovered a mother had written it and labelled it mummy porn for that reason.

Interesting though that the author apparently hates the label.

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Thanks for the link! I'm going to go read it now. I think what is confusing me is this: I can't tell what is based on opinion and what is the actual meaning of the phrase, if that makes sense.

Late to this discussion, but I think the term "mommy porn" is degrading both to readers and to those of us who've been writing erotic romance (especially those of us who are IN the BDSM lifestyle AND write about it, like I am).

It's like someone couldn't stand the fact that, oh, sex might be FUN, so they had to give it a degrading term to knock it down a few notches.

*snort*

No, I haven't read FSOG, although I tried several times. Friends of mine in the lifestyle who did read it say almost the same things about it, dismay that it in no way realistically portrays WIITWD, and that (to them) it's ho-hum compared to the average play party. Since I've had no less than fifteen people tell me this, I'm guessing it's pretty true. Beyond that, I can't speak about the book in plot specifics.

I tell people if you want to read it, knock yourself out and enjoy it for fiction's sake, but don't think it in anyway realistically portrays a TPE BDSM dynamic.

Just my .02.

I always kind of assumed that the term referred to something that was easy to read and could be picked up and put down easily without losing the train of the story.

If that is the definition, FSOG is definitely mummy porn.

Oldbrasscat said:

I always kind of assumed that the term referred to something that was easy to read and could be picked up and put down easily without losing the train of the story.

If that is the definition, FSOG is definitely mummy porn.

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Well, I completely disagree with the word "porn" for what most of us do. I don't write porn. Porn doesn't have a plot. And calling what my readers read porn insults them. Rom/erotic rom is as legitimate a genre as any. Moreso, because it's usually the bestselling genre, much to the chagrin of the literary snobs who turn their noses up at it.

Love the genres or hate them, labelling them "porn" is insulting in the context of the genre.

madmumbler said:

Well, I completely disagree with the word "porn" for what most of us do. I don't write porn. Porn doesn't have a plot. And calling what my readers read porn insults them. Rom/erotic rom is as legitimate a genre as any. Moreso, because it's usually the bestselling genre, much to the chagrin of the literary snobs who turn their noses up at it.

Love the genres or hate them, labelling them "porn" is insulting in the context of the genre.

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*Soapbox warning* I totally agree with you, which is why I don't mind FSOG being labelled mummy porn. That's about the quality of the book--porn, prettied up with a classic "taming the untameable man" story that anyone, including my 11 year old, could have written. I don't write porn, because I would be bored to tears within fifteen minutes. (And I was, as I tried to plow through that book). But I know people out there who just want a context, or an excuse, for the sex they want to read about. They are reading for the sex, but the story it is couched in makes it less guilt/shame inducing.

I wonder how many people couldn't finish them, but say they had because they are embarassed to admit they couldn't get into this "hot, everyone's reading it" book?

When an ADULT uses the word "mommy", they're almost always doing it in an insulting way. Would you drive a minivan? No way, that's a mommy car. The implication is that as a "mommy" (note: they don't say mom or mother porn, do they?) you are no longer an individual, but an extension of your children. You're "less than" a whole person. Likewise, using the label "mommy" on other things implies that THEY are less than. Mommy car. I've heard "mommy aerobics" to refer to the easy aerobics classes. Mommy porn. It's not REAL porn, it's just that silly fluff that those half-people read, maybe while trying to reclaim their identities in between soccer games and piano recitals.

This is exactly what irks me about the tag. Thanks for saving me the typing!

And you don't have to be a reader of erotica or a connoisseur of pornography to find this term irritating. WildScribe has captured perfectly why this is so.

WildScribe said:

When an ADULT uses the word "mommy", they're almost always doing it in an insulting way. Would you drive a minivan? No way, that's a mommy car. The implication is that as a "mommy" (note: they don't say mom or mother porn, do they?) you are no longer an individual, but an extension of your children. You're "less than" a whole person. Likewise, using the label "mommy" on other things implies that THEY are less than. Mommy car. I've heard "mommy aerobics" to refer to the easy aerobics classes. Mommy porn. It's not REAL porn, it's just that silly fluff that those half-people read, maybe while trying to reclaim their identities in between soccer games and piano recitals.

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Thanks Perks. FWIW, I'm a proud mother, but being a "mommy" has less than nothing to do with my sex or sexuality or desires. And I write some seriously hot erotica that has nothing to do with my parental status, either.

WildScribe said:

Thanks Perks. FWIW, I'm a proud mother, but being a "mommy" has less than nothing to do with my sex or sexuality or desires.

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Absolutely. On a small tangent, this is one of the reasons that any guff over public breast-feeding is ridiculous.

Grownups really need to understand that our body parts and personal and societal functions can have strong delineations along the facets. Often, it's very important that these lines don't get blurred.

In this case, the term "mommy porn" is a cutesy undermining of a very important distinction.

madmumbler said:

Well, I completely disagree with the word "porn" for what most of us do. I don't write porn. Porn doesn't have a plot. And calling what my readers read porn insults them. Rom/erotic rom is as legitimate a genre as any. Moreso, because it's usually the bestselling genre, much to the chagrin of the literary snobs who turn their noses up at it.

Love the genres or hate them, labelling them "porn" is insulting in the context of the genre.

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I totally disagree and happily find my printed porn in the "erotica" and "romance" sections. The presence of a plot does not define whether or not something is porn. Whether you think it's degrading or not, I'm still buying the books. I'm not insulted at all by the idea that I like to read porn.

Regardless of what you call your own work, readers will call it what they want.

The porn I read and watch has a plot, have i been sold counterfeits? Is the really gratuitous stuff saved for females who have good birth? [sulks]

Basically i read Mommy Porn as purely a statement of stereotype. All sex is porn and all mainstream women are mothers. Ergo a mainstream sex book selling to females is....

veinglory said:

The porn I read and watch has a plot, have i been sold counterfeits? Is the really gratuitous stuff saved for females who have good birth? [sulks]

Basically i read Mommy Porn as purely a statement of stereotype. All sex is porn and all mainstream women are mothers. Ergo a mainstream sex book selling to females is....

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+1

It's a handy marketing label that gets it's point across without sounding pretentious and literary.

And I'm glad I once had a whole human in my cunt (as opposed to just part of one) if it means I get to read the good porn.

Jenn, you crack me up.

madmumbler said:

Well, I completely disagree with the word "porn" for what most of us do. I don't write porn. Porn doesn't have a plot. And calling what my readers read porn insults them. Rom/erotic rom is as legitimate a genre as any. Moreso, because it's usually the bestselling genre, much to the chagrin of the literary snobs who turn their noses up at it.

Love the genres or hate them, labelling them "porn" is insulting in the context of the genre.

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Is erotic romance the world's best selling sub-genre? I think it's possible that it is actually.

Filigree said:

Jenn, you crack me up.

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Jenn is amazing. <33333

I love it. It's yet another step in normalising fictional depictions of sex. We're all sexual creatures. There should be no shame about that.

As I see it, it puts a boot in the Madonna/Whore idea of women. Ie women can only be little chaste innocent flowers and mothers, or have good sex. The word "mommy porn" finally admits that mothers like sex too and are as slutty as all other women (and men).

Being a slut is getting less and less shameful by the day, and that is only a good thing IMHO.

edit: I acknowledge that the word "mommy" infantilises the whole expression. It makes it cute and harmless to buy. But I think that is a good thing.

Being a mommy means you fucked at least once. Reading about sex might mean you get to fuck again and do it/like it better. lol Or you can just be a curious bitch and want to know how other people are doing it.

However, that being said, I do think the people that started calling it mommy porn, were trying to marginalize the entire genre. Lots of studies about how women get paid less. Want to bet that men who write filth get more commendations, money and respect? How the hell is Lolita considered literary, all high brow and shit, while current women's books are labeled mommy porn? Is Lolita called daddy porn? I don't think so. DH Lawrence and others make my point.

Even with the current altercation over whether M/M's are written by women for women proves this point. What only men can write about butt sex? Is it so vastly different fucking a dude in the ass or a girl? Seriously? Or getting a blow job from a guy as opposed to a girl? I bet there are female porn stars out there that would give any male dude a huge run for their money when it comes to sucking dick. I know. I've seen it. Sure psychologically if you're attracted to dudes, its different. But really my mouth is so vastly different from a dudes, just like my ass is? Umm, no.

In the end, do I care that people try to marginalize all things for and by women? To some degree. But mostly I just laugh. Cause reactions like that start out in fear. Fear the mommy porn sells better, that mommy porn is talked about more, that mommy porn authors are better known (than the average writer excluding peeps like King, Patterson, Steele, et. al).

Again, just my two cents. Do they even make pennies any more? lol

I think "mommy porn" is patronizing of both mothers and porn, but people who talk like that are generally not worth arguing with.

*I would note that we are not actually all sexual creatures. A good many people are in a transient or permanent state of asexuality. It's all good.

Amen, veinglory, on both points.

And when you're finished with him, may I have that fellow in your avatar? Exactly my type.

Maryn, fussy

articshark said:

However, that being said, I do think the people that started calling it mommy porn, were trying to marginalize the entire genre. Lots of studies about how women get paid less. Want to bet that men who write filth get more commendations, money and respect? How the hell is Lolita considered literary, all high brow and shit, while current women's books are labeled mommy porn? Is Lolita called daddy porn? I don't think so. DH Lawrence and others make my point.

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Beg pardon--I haven't read it myself yet, but I wasn't under the impression Lolita is meant as titillation. And men DO write filth, of the romance/erotica variety. It's really not the same as Lolita.

/back to lurking

Lolita was originally classified as erotica. I mean come on a 12 year old and her really old stepfather. Ugh. It was then classified as fiction with an erotic motif. Well sure, incest is slightly erotic in motif. Then it was classified as irony.

See, it went from smut to one of the greatest books of the 20th century.

But my point is this, had a woman written Lolita, had it dubbed mommy porn, would the book have gotten any serious scrutiny? Been taught in literature classes? Been picked apart and put back together so it can journey from initially being seen as erotica to literary treasure?

My answer is simple. No. All the "thinkers" in academia would have set it aside as something those women wrote for other women to get off.

It might be worth contrasting the current batch of so-called 'mommy porn' bestsellers with the previous 100 years of literary erotica and sensual explorations. There's a lot of cultural baggage about 'punishing the sin' that had to ditched in favor of unashamed delight. But we may have lost some subtlety and depth along the way. (Anaïs Nin and Radclyffe Hall, anyone?) However, my 100+ page research thesis days are long over unless there's a legal or financial reason to put in the work. I'm sure some Serious Young Thing working toward her Masters has already written it, or is on the way to doing so.

@articshark: Well, I appreciate the history lesson--sincerely--because I had no idea Lolita was originally classified as an erotic novel. That's . . . quite disturbing, actually. I still maintain my original point, however, that modern erotica--including so-called "mommy porn"--is intended to titillate, and that was never the intention behind Lolita. I agree that the book may have not been taken seriously if a woman had written it, but I think you're using a really weird example. What about a proper classic erotic novel? Like...*thinks* Lady Chatterly's Lover? (Help me out here, guys--I don't read that many of these things.)