The sexual attractiveness of a protagonist

Menyanthana said:

The description of female breasts has way too often been abused for male-fan-service. I just won't believe it's there for "realistic" instead of fanservice.

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There are only a few times when it is properly used, but descriptions of a character are sometimes necessary - in body-swap stories, for example, or in comedy works. The focus on the breasts (which, for some reason, tend to be likened to foodstuffs) seems only to be there for the amusement of a certain segment of the readership though.

Mr Flibble said:

I think it depends on who is describin ng

For instance, a chaste POV character may not describe anyone in terms of hotness at all

...

As long as the description fits in with the person describing, and what they would notice or not, I think you're fine.

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Yes, this. Absolutely.

I write a highly sexually repressed, largely asexual gay PT, and he generally notices unpleasant stimulatory things about people. The only exceptions are around the guy who is the closest thing to a 'love interest' that he has - but even that is often fairly subtle. He simply notices more about him, and in more positive terms than most other people.

Describing your own character with terms like 'flat stomached' and waxing lyrical about wardrobe and hair and boob velocity and suchlike always struck me as authorial masturbation.

I like to describe beautiful characters, but with a mind to 'types' that people like, or something that still makes them extraordinary but not in a clichéd manner. Raymond Chandler's description of 'The Dream' in The Long Goodbye was quite brilliant, starting with, 'there are blondes, and then there are blondes'...
However, describing individual body parts seems a bit silly unless it's blended smoothly into the rest of the story.

Yāoguài;7414673 said:

Flat stomachs.

A few pages into Jennifer Estep's Spider's Bite: "I got to my feet and stretched my arms over my head, moving the screw into a better position in my hand. The long-sleeved, white T-shirt I wore rode up over my matching pajama pants, exposing my flat stomach. The tall orderly licked his lips, his eyes locked on my crotch."

Kelly Gay's Charlie Madigan examines herself after an injury: "A few ugly bruises colored my left rib cage and collarbone, and there was a faint yellow bruise on my jaw. Otherwise, I looked my normal self: tall, lanky, and fit. My hand rubbed my flat stomach. It still amazed me that I’d grown a child in that small space—and that my boobs had skyrocketed from a 36B to a 40C. Will, my ex, had loved every second of that. The memory made me smile."

It looks to me like these authors found appropriate, good-storytelling ways to tell us the characters had flat stomachs. I'm curious as to why the storyteller would think it an important part of a reader's mental image.

I remember other flat stomachs in UF. I only had these two bookmarked because I read them after I noticed the trend.

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I'd have to disagree I'm afraid to say. This prose strikes me as rather cheesy, even for erotica, never mind other genres... Definitely an across the room for me.

I do have a semi-mirror scene where the MC (1st person) takes off her contact lenses (an important plot point). She has one yellow eye and one green one. And realizes it makes her look weird. She doesn't actually stare into the mirror, just takes off her lenses in the bathroom and tells the reader about her eyes.

Other than that, the nicest thing she says about her appearance is that she's "acceptable looking."

Later in the story she has two guys who want to date her, so the reader can read between the lines if they wish and decide that she's at least moderately attractive.

The few times I describe her, it's by her similarity to her mother who has "white blonde hair the same shade as mine" and in contrast to the villain, "She's sort of slick and tailored the way neither of us are good at. I didn't know if I should admire her or mess up her hair."

I wrote an article about description "beyond the mirror" here.

Little late to this conversation, but I have two pennies I want to throw in anyway.

I'm in the "Oh, let's not bother unless forced to it" school of thought on POV character self-description. I know what he looks like, and if I'm good at what I do, the reader will pick up on the little tidbits I throw in. If my POV character is unusually tall, he might feel claustrophobic in a low-ceilinged room, or he might look down at every character he meets.

I particularly like the idea of using other characters' reactions to him as an indicator of appearance. That gives him an excuse to think about his appearance.

jallenecs said:

I'm in the "Oh, let's not bother unless forced to it" school of thought on POV character self-description. I know what he looks like, and if I'm good at what I do, the reader will pick up on the little tidbits I throw in. If my POV character is unusually tall, he might feel claustrophobic in a low-ceilinged room, or he might look down at every character he meets.

I particularly like the idea of using other characters' reactions to him as an indicator of appearance. That gives him an excuse to think about his appearance.

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I definitely agree. That's how I write and I think that reflects how I read as well. When reading if too much time is spent describing any character's physical appearance I start to get suspicious and if it continues I usually stop. There's only so many ways to say "beautiful green eyes" before your abuse of the thesaurus becomes blindingly obvious. Too often (mostly in romance) writers and readers substitute physical appearance for a personality.

Yāoguài;7414673 said:

Flat stomachs.

A few pages into Jennifer Estep's Spider's Bite: "I got to my feet and stretched my arms over my head, moving the screw into a better position in my hand. The long-sleeved, white T-shirt I wore rode up over my matching pajama pants, exposing my flat stomach. The tall orderly licked his lips, his eyes locked on my crotch."

Kelly Gay's Charlie Madigan examines herself after an injury: "A few ugly bruises colored my left rib cage and collarbone, and there was a faint yellow bruise on my jaw. Otherwise, I looked my normal self: tall, lanky, and fit. My hand rubbed my flat stomach. It still amazed me that I’d grown a child in that small space—and that my boobs had skyrocketed from a 36B to a 40C. Will, my ex, had loved every second of that. The memory made me smile."

It looks to me like these authors found appropriate, good-storytelling ways to tell us the characters had flat stomachs. I'm curious as to why the storyteller would think it an important part of a reader's mental image.

I remember other flat stomachs in UF. I only had these two bookmarked because I read them after I noticed the trend.

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This kind of stuff drives me F-ing nuts! Can't we have a NORMAL looking character in UF? I just read one where someone paints a portrait of the MC so she spends a long time looking at it, describing her shapely breasts and flat stomach. I was gagging by the end of the description.

The worst is when they look in the mirror and think what a shame how perfectly skinny they are. I read one that basically went, "I look like a model. People stare at me and I hate it." Riiiiight.

Erin Latimer said:

This kind of stuff drives me F-ing nuts! Can't we have a NORMAL looking character in UF? I just read one where someone paints a portrait of the MC so she spends a long time looking at it, describing her shapely breasts and flat stomach. I was gagging by the end of the description.

The worst is when they look in the mirror and think what a shame how perfectly skinny they are. I read one that basically went, "I look like a model. People stare at me and I hate it." Riiiiight.

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My UF series (coming eventually from Ace) features a protagonist with "normal" looks. She works with a couple of supermodel types and as a result has a bit of a complex, but she's not ugly, just average.

The feedback we got on her was that people loved the "hey, it's like there's a real person" effect.

No powers.
No kick ass martial arts.
No super weapons with names and ultra awesome abilities.

Normal woman, working to pay off her debt to the Fairy Godfather. Way out of her league and too stubborn to give up.

It can work. Your protagonist doesn't have to induce arousal in anything with a pulse for people to like them.

xC0000005 said:

My UF series (coming eventually from Ace) features a protagonist with "normal" looks. She works with a couple of supermodel types and as a result has a bit of a complex, but she's not ugly, just average.

The feedback we got on her was that people loved the "hey, it's like there's a real person" effect.

No powers.
No kick ass martial arts.
No super weapons with names and ultra awesome abilities.

Normal woman, working to pay off her debt to the Fairy Godfather. Way out of her league and too stubborn to give up.

It can work. Your protagonist doesn't have to induce arousal in anything with a pulse for people to like them.

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That sounds lovely! I love reading about normal people in abnormal situations. Isn't that why we read stuff like that? I don't understand why so many authors can't resist making their character a sex magnet.

Erin Latimer said:

I love reading about normal people in abnormal situations. Isn't that why we read stuff like that?

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Not really, no. I don't, for example. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Erin Latimer said:

I don't understand why so many authors can't resist making their character a sex magnet.

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Who knows. Sure, it can get aggravating when it seems like everyone is doing it but I can't be convinced that a writer is doing it just because everyone else is.

In a story idea I have, my MC is zaftig. She's also gorgeous*. Why? Because that's what I want her to be (and the two shouldn't be mutually exclusive). Perhaps I 'resist' making her 'normal' (I'm not even sure what would qualify as normal, anyway) because I'm writing what I want to read.

* modeled on the simply gorgeous Ashley Graham because maybe I'm just shallow that way. rawr

which I also said on page one. repeating myself. repeating.

bearilou said:

Not really, no. I don't, for example. I'm sure I'm not the only one.



Who knows. Sure, it can get aggravating when it seems like everyone is doing it but I can't be convinced that a writer is doing it just because everyone else is.

In a story idea I have, my MC is zaftig. She's also gorgeous*. Why? Because that's what I want her to be (and the two shouldn't be mutually exclusive). Perhaps I 'resist' making her 'normal' (I'm not even sure what would qualify as normal, anyway) because I'm writing what I want to read.

* modeled on the simply gorgeous Ashley Graham because maybe I'm just shallow that way. rawr

which I also said on page one. repeating myself. repeating.

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My point is that I like to be able to relate to a protagonist. And you might be a supermodel, but I'm not. And most likely, most of your readers aren't either. Just sayin'

Erin Latimer said:

My point is that I like to be able to relate to a protagonist. And you might be a supermodel, but I'm not. And most likely, most of your readers aren't either. Just sayin'

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This. My two MC's would probably be defined as "somewhat pretty" but neither of them are supermodels and I don't want them to be.

Frankly, I've started to become irritated with gorgeous heroines (LKH comes to mind) who congratulate themselves on the glory of their perfect bodies and are ohh so sexy that clutches of vampires and were packs fall to their feet in worship of the goddess-like heroine. (And generally have tons of gratuitous sex that doesn't advance the plot.)

Ewww. *Spends a moment wiping off the various excretions.*

I don't mind sex in a novel. I'm not a prude about it, but when it happens it should advance the plot and shouldn't be happening on every third page. Do I mind the occasional wet-panties inducing (for the reader even) moment? Heck no.

I prefer an MC who is flawed and human (even when they aren't completely) like me.

What I can't stand is the heroine who is so sexy to the point where everyone must plot to have sex with her, and where you suspect that THIS is their actual base motivations.

Imagine the evil villain: "I will destroy the World! I will become it's Ultimate...oh wait, that babe is hot!"

I want her to be on point with the actual problems that the plot has dealt her and focused on using whatever powers she has to fix those. Preferably not the powers of her golden t**t.

In Dark Moon Gates, Willa is a teenage nobody whom the majority of schoolmates probably view as a pariah. She's not cool, she wears ugly glasses. (Not that all glasses are ugly, but hers are.) Her positive qualities are that she's honorable, responsible and creative.

She spends absolutely zero time glorifying her body, though she does take a moment to be annoyed at how irritating it is for a girl to try to pee in the woods.

Erin Latimer said:

My point is that I like to be able to relate to a protagonist. And you might be a supermodel, but I'm not. And most likely, most of your readers aren't either. Just sayin'

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That doesn't mean the readers don't find other ways to relate to a well written protagonist, whether they're gorgeous or not.

Escapism can be a big draw as well.

And considering how well some of these 'gorgeous' protagonists novels sell? Well, if we're going to go by 'most of the readers'....

I don't make the mistake of thinking that all readers conform to a certain mindset. I'll appeal to those who like the things I like. As I said, if I like them, there's a pretty good bet several someone elses will too.

I dislike the gratuitously described sex god/dess, not saying otherwise. But we shouldn't forget, especially in UF and PNR there is a certain degree of expectation that they're there. I agree that the characters need more depth. I'm just saying that not all readers everywhere are looking for that plain jane hero/ine. Maybe there are a lot of writers who are, which means they'll find readers. Just like there are writers who don't mind attractive protags, especially when they also have the depth.

I am finding this assumption that the plain janes are apparently assumed to have more depth of character simply by virtue of their being plain janes troublesome, though.

bearilou said:

I am finding this assumption that the plain janes are apparently assumed to have more depth of character simply by virtue of their being plain janes troublesome, though.

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I tend to parse it as some authors who spend lots of time ogling their own MC can confuse appearance with personality. Whereas if your MC is average looking and not spending half her time admiring her own tummy, well, then that's half her time freed up to describe her thoughts and behaviour.

It's not that Plain Janes are deeper, necessarily, it's that the authors who don't spend heaps of time drooling over their perfect, melon-breasted heroines, are focussing on other aspects of their character.

Not to say, of course, that deeply drawn supermodel types can't and don't exist. It depends on the author.

OJCade said:

It's not that Plain Janes are deeper, necessarily, it's that the authors who don't spend heaps of time drooling over their perfect, melon-breasted heroines, are focussing on other aspects of their character.

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Unless the author spends a great deal of time telling us how very much NOT a super model their characters. See? She's really not attractive at all, she has this great personality and she's totally not hampered by being attractive or having the guys fall all over her for her looks.

I get what you're saying and I can see the truth in it. Then I'm reminded of Bella and think...um...maybe?

You're right, though. It does depend on how the author handles it, for sure.

You're right, it can go both ways.

Personally, I don't care much what the character looks like (though I do roll my eyes at faux-modesty and fruit references). All I care about is that the author doesn't harp on about it. A quick description, the more implied the better, and get on with the story please, is my preference.

OJCade said:

You're right, it can go both ways.

Personally, I don't care much what the character looks like (though I do roll my eyes at faux-modesty and fruit references). All I care about is that the author doesn't harp on about it. A quick description, the more implied the better, and get on with the story please, is my preference.

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faux-modesty and fruit references sounds like an awesome name for a book. Not sure what kind but, there you go.

And totally with you on the quick description. One of my favorite character descriptions had one paragraph that outlined (it was first person) what he looked like. Laundry list of descriptions without romanticizing it, a little bit on his resume and how he ended up where he was and then he followed it by saying (paraphrased) 'but none of that matters. Let me tell you about how I killed (minor antagonist that kicks off the story)'.

I was 0_0 at it and laughed when I got to the last line of the paragraph. Thought it was pretty slick, myself. I could just be easy to please. :/

What I'm getting from the tail end of this conversation is that a character's looks should never overwhelm a character's . . . erm, character. Honestly, half the time I don't even remember to tell people what my characters look like. Apart from things that would be obvious in their everyday lives--like someone who's remarkably short, for example, and gets mistaken for being much younger than she is; or someone who visits a subterranean netherworld, and when she comes back, her hair has turned white; little plot-relevant details like that.

Attractiveness, or the lack thereof, seems like it should be a non-issue, at least when compared to everything else going on in the story.

I think it should be mentioned if relevant to the plot. In my WIP, the protagonist was made in a lab, she was supposed to be perfect in every way possible. Her flawless looks are a hint that there is something "off" about her.

If not plot relevant, I don't think attractiveness should be rubbed on the readers' faces at every paragraph.

I get a bit irritated with a supermodel heroine just because it it's a bit more of a suspension of disbelief than I'm up for. I mean I have to believe that your werewolves, vampires, whatever exist, and now I have to believe that your heroine is the most beautiful woman on the planet too?

I don't mind an attractive heroine. And attractive is in the eye of the beholder. Should the LI if there is one, think she's good looking as heck? Sure! Absolutely. And that goes whether or not she's supermodel pretty.

My hubby thinks I'm pretty/attractive. I think he needs glasses, but that's another story. I think he's devastatingly sexy, has the most gorgeous expressive eyes on the planet. More important, there's a chemistry between us (probably pheromone based if I want to get clinical) that says "we are right for each other." And also we get along on an emotional/mental level.

Neither of us ever had trouble getting dates before we met, so I'll guess that we're at least average or better. He's also a ballroom dance instructor. Sooo sexy there. And despite the fact that he's ectomorphically slim to almost looking emaciated, he's whip strong and a martial arts expert.

For me, there's nothing quite so sexy as a man who I can stay up to 3am with, debating various points of philosophy, religion, etc. The fact that he knows me well enough to realize that a piece of jewelry is no way near as enticing a gift as a Kitchen Aid mixer or a god-wa sewing machine is also sexy as hell. He GETS me and cares about me. That's a huge part of what makes him sexy.

So my main point is that someone can be hella sexy without being a supermodel.

And that "being paid attention to" is possibly the most sexy thing on the planet.

Beyond that, having an MC describing her perfect body smacks of vanity to an annoying level. Personally I don't care about your measurements, I just want to know what you're going to do about the vampires/zombies/other evil baddies.

It's when the MC waxes into amazing vanity or spends an excessive amount of time focused on their looks that the author loses me.

A number of my characters are attractive including the protagonist, however I do not dwell on describing physical attributes and rarely mention the protag's appearance in regards to how attractive they are. Majority of the time when appearance is referred to either good or ill is through another character's viewpoint. I personally find it annoying and redundant for a character's appearance to be harped upon continuously. It's especially bad in many instances when a character extolls his/her own virtues repeatedly. It can also turn some people off from even liking a character. So I find it unnecessary most of the time. That is just my view.

I tend to dislike attractive main characters, but I'm alright with attractive side characters or villains, especially when there's a reason for the attractiveness (Thomas in the Dresden Files is a good example; the whole point is that he looks like a parody of a romance novel character).

Though in any case, if it's the main character, I tend to forget to define them by appearance. Case in point, my current MC only has one defining appearance trait; he has a crippled left side (mostly leg and arm) as a result of a monster attack when he was young, and carries a cane (even though he's in his twenties) because of this. I couldn't tell you anything else about his appearance, mainly because I don't think it matters.

I tend to make my protags scarred up a bit or average looking. What peeves me so entirely much is when the protag is supposed to be some bombshell, but they think they aren't, but describe themselves as, "I don't understand why all the men think I'm hot." It also irritates me to have a UF where every male finds a female protag utterly attractive. Everyone wants her. Everyone has to have her. She stops traffic - literally causes an accident, or makes the bar go silent, but doesn't know it. It's overdone, over dramatic, and I don't care how attractive someone is, there is always someone in the world who does not find them attractive. It's why there are types. Having a beautiful protag, that's fine, but I hate it when they're made to be the most beautiful creatures in the world that no man (or woman) can resist them. I know it's Urban Fantasy, but that's not exactly realistic.

Nothing to do with UF, but I think it's usually clumsy and indeed rather pathetic for characters to describe themselves in first person. With the occasional exception, it makes it clear that the narrator is in fact not the character, and almost always strikes me as amateurish writing.

If the narrator's appearance is important and you can't come up with a way for some other character to comment on it, then it seems to me you must not be trying very hard. Occasionally I must admit some salient feature relevant to the story, like the narrator's unusual size or species or something like that might not be inappropriate to narrate, and it might even be acceptable for the narrator to actually think about it at some point, but the usual qualities associated with beauty in either gender will rarely be relevant for the narrator to recount.

So "my flat stomach" as a casual mention in the middle of an action paragraph is IMO a complete joke. I don't think this kind of thing is even appropriate to erotica. Let the narrator describe other people's appearances, because those matter to the narrator. But describing yourself usually feels not just narcissistic but stupid.

I think that the appearance is important to some authors, especially new ones, because they consider the protag to be an extension of themselves. When I tried to help one author with the description of her protag in a manuscript - as it was literally the protag standing in front of the mirror and describing herself while wondering why men found her so irresistible - I told her there were better ways to do it. She refused to change the description and told me flat out that this character, in many ways, was her. So if the protag is an extension of the author or the author viewing themselves as the character, I'm guessing that they want the protag to be utterly gorgeous because that's how they would write themselves if they could.

Of course, this isn't all authors who describe the character. I'm just saying, some can't separate self from character and I think that's where many flawless characters come from.