What if your Beta experience did not go as planned?

I know I am a newb, but I would think a beta reader would critique short fiction or maybe a few chapters of a novel. That is asking a lot to critique a novel. I never even head of a beta reader until today.

I attend writers group at my local theaters, and book stores. Sometimes it is helpful. However I worry that I am not getting the criticism I need. I want my style to be criticized. Also If, a fellow writer only says,"it is okay." That doesn't help me improve.

Collaborative stories and live writing are a good way to sharpen skills. I don't know if AW has any collaborative groups, but if there is please let me know.

Really!

Unfortunately I have a negative experience to add to this thread. I requested betas for a novella swap and got two responses. The first one sent me her novella and told me what she wanted me to look for. I informed her I'd never been a beta before. When I hadn't heard anything for a few weeks, I emailed her again and let her know I was waiting for her feedback first because as an inexperienced beta I wanted to get some idea of what type of comments to make. I also wasn't sure what the timeline usually was for responses.

My email was met by complete silence. I even informed her in the email that if she didn't have time to look at my manuscript, or it wasn't her cup of tea I wouldn't be offended, and I'd happily send her the comments I'd already made on hers. Nothing. One line would have sufficed: Sorry I couldn't get to this after all.

Seriously, what is wrong with people? I don't care that she didn't beta my manuscript, it's the complete lack of basic courtesy which gets to me, and from what I've read here it seems this isn't an uncommon experience.

Writers, of all people should understand how hard it is to send your work to a total stranger, and to be met with this kind of response really feeds into your insecurities that your writing is no good. I'm sure there are many wonderful betas on this site, but this experience has really turned me off seeking another one for quite a while.

(The other person who responded publicly had the decency to write back to me and inform me it might take her a while to get to it, which I appreciated. I ended up self-publishing this novella recently with no beta feedback).

My purpose for posting about this is not just to vent but to remind people to be considerate and let someone know if you can't beta for them after all. Don't just drop off the face of the earth because that's very rude and insensitive.

JustJas, that really sucks - I completely agree with you vis. common courtesy. Just a note saying "Sorry, life's hectic at the moment" or "Will get back to you in x weeks" is better than an eternal not-knowing.

My beta experience has been largely positive. I've got several non-AW friends who write poetry or shorts, and a few others who are English Lit majors/very well read.
I sent my roughest draft to two, both of whom came back within a month with substantial crit.
Did some reworking, sent the next one out to like six people. Two never really came back but did say they were busy, the others came in dribs and drabs. I had actually given pretty clear instructions of 'things I'd especially like your views on' but also said 'just say anything you think/be brutal'. AND MY WORD were they brutal One was so worried that she'd ruin our friendship that she drank a bunch of gin before emailing it. Another was really precise, putting pages of notes into a .pdf and considering all kinds of things I hadn't thought of.
Receiving all of this at once was a blow, and I was kindof shocked for a while, not least because lots of the feedback was contradictory (i.e. one beta said 'more of this' whilst the other said 'scrap this entirely'). I took a week off and dabble in...aromatic inhalants... then came back and tried to look at the sum of all feedback without feeling it was an attack.
Then I started Really enjoying the process - weighing up which advice to go with, which crits I thought were valid, which were missing the point (forcing me to consider how I could make x point clearer) etc. It was like that initial-excited-just-got-an-idea-must-get-it-down stage all over again. Woop!

I beta quite a lot for those people, although they're not all as productive. I try to turnaround within a week for shorts or poems, unless I have a good reason not to. It can be so interesting to see them writing/thinking in alien ways.

Me and my crit partner joined a group once with two ladies who had an ad looking for others. It was awful, the girls said awful things about both our works and, in our opinion, the chapters they posted to the group weren't spectacular. Needless to say I promptly left, as did my CP.

Since then we've both been published with said 'awful' manuscripts, so my guess is, its a jealousy thing with some people.

I guess some just don't have the time - although why you'd agree to crit a story when you were busy is beyond me!

I think the most important thing in a Beta reader is someone who won't change your voice. Yes, point out grammar issues and sentence structure mishaps, I appreciate that as well as pointing out where my story loses tension, when the threads don't weave all the way through and anything else that doesn't sit right. But leave my voice alone! lol.

Anyway, rant over x

JustJas said:

Seriously, what is wrong with people? I don't care that she didn't beta my manuscript, it's the complete lack of basic courtesy which gets to me, and from what I've read here it seems this isn't an uncommon experience.

Writers, of all people should understand how hard it is to send your work to a total stranger, and to be met with this kind of response really feeds into your insecurities that your writing is no good. I'm sure there are many wonderful betas on this site, but this experience has really turned me off seeking another one for quite a while.

[snip]

My purpose for posting about this is not just to vent but to remind people to be considerate and let someone know if you can't beta for them after all. Don't just drop off the face of the earth because that's very rude and insensitive.

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This ^! I've had this happen, and it leaves you with the feeling that your ms is crap, plot is crap, writing is crap, and wasn't even worth that person's time to respond to tell you it's crap. It really does a number on your confidence, makes you second guess yourself and change things that may not need to be changed. Even a "sorry, but it didn't hold my interest" is better than nothing. At least you'd know that they weren't lying dead in a ditch somewhere.

If you get no response after several email attempts, I'd suggest pinging the person here via PM, or using some other method of contact. I've had times where my ISP decided to bin all the emails from certain email addresses for no apparent reason, without ever letting me know. (I've also had the very embarrassing experience of forgetting to tell an editor that I changed my ISP and consequently my email address, and contacting her to go WHERE ARE MY ROYALTY STATEMENTS? and her coming back with a polite version of SITTING HERE WAITING FOR YOU TO CONTACT ME WITH AN EMAIL ADDRESS THAT DOESN'T BOUNCE, YOU PRAT!).

Wrote my "first" novel (that I dared show others) three years ago. Everyone in the "writing group" loved it. Maybe too much. After I realized it sucked, I extensively revised and they all said they were eager to read it. A year's worth of revision and rewriting. Asked them again: did they want it? YES! Gave the entire manuscript to them all almost two months ago.

Not. One. Bloody. Word.

I don't mind if they didn't want to read it. But we met a month later and I specifically asked if anyone had started it yet -- and they all sort of stared at each other, and then someone changed the subject really fast. So far as I know, they've stuffed it under the cushions of their sofas. If they'd told me up front they didn't want to read it, that would have been okay, but . . . the silence is as revealing as words.

On the other hand, I've found a new writing group that lives to critique, and they've seen the first three chapters and have asked for more.

J. Marks said:

This ^! I've had this happen, and it leaves you with the feeling that your ms is crap, plot is crap, writing is crap, and wasn't even worth that person's time to respond to tell you it's crap. It really does a number on your confidence, makes you second guess yourself and change things that may not need to be changed. Even a "sorry, but it didn't hold my interest" is better than nothing. At least you'd know that they weren't lying dead in a ditch somewhere.

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I had someone beg me to read my story once. No response in email, online, anywhere in over a year. If they changed their minds, all they had to do was say so. I was really starting to think something had happened to them when they finally resurfaced online. I sent them a message once just to say hi and check up on them. It took them another year to even response to that.

Another time I switched drafts with a girl who gave me feedback for half, but when she got her feedback from me, she stopped talking to me for three months. Then begged me to read her revision and then wanted to complain about how long it was taking (2 weeks later for an entire MS) when she still hadn't finished critiquing mine.

Another bad experience, English professor told me to send my story along after I asked him if he had the time and he said he did because winter break was coming up. Never heard anything from him about even though I've talked to him many times in general since then. Heard from my sister that he lost what he had printed out and had to reprint it. That was almost 4 years ago.

Another bad experience (aren't I lucky): a writing buddy of a few years sat on it for 8 months and then gave me horrible feedback. Not "this is bad" kind of stuff. She would go on and on about things like, I wrote, "Chloe walked into the room, sat down, and flipped her hair." She would say, "You should say 'Chloe walked into the room, flipped her hair, and sat down'" and then go on for a paragraph about why that was better. Then she would say things like, she didn't know guy x reminded my MC of guy z when it was something I had mentioned only 4 or 5 times because it was important. Then of course when it was her turn to get feedback she wanted it done ASAP and done well even though she clearly didn't half read mine. We broke up a year later.

I finally had a good experience last year. She read it in a timely fashion and then called me a few days after she emailed her feedback so we could talk about why the good things were great and the not so good things were not working. She even brainstormed with me on how I could go about fixing it.

Still worried about trying to get feedback now as she's going through some things and I will need to ask new people. Given my track record, I'm not feeling great about it even though I have 2 seemingly reliable critique partners on hand waiting for me to tell them I'm ready.

And now that live written a book, I'll shut up. ^_^

I'll have to share my bad experience.

I belong to a writers group around here and one of the girls was SUPER eager to read my manuscript. I printed it out and made it all lovely for her. She swore up and down she'd get back to me within 3-4 weeks since classes were out and she had SO much free time.

Yeah, it's been 2 almost 3 months and NOT A SINGLE WORD! She hasn't responded to my emails. Just silence. It's so disappointing.

Luckily, I've found 2 more betas who have been awesome and are giving me GREAT feedback.

Some people are just...BAH!

I haven't had good luck either to be honest-but people do get busy, and you really need to be aware of helping others in return as well.

Yikes...these bad experience stories aren't at all that encouraging...I just joined about a month or so ago looking beta advice/swaps, and haven't heard back from my first swapper in a few weeks, even after providing solid feedback on their work. I really hope I hear from them soon, if only to ensure they're still alive and breathing...

As a side note, has anyone tried to reach out to their betas over the forums post-trauma?

I'm not sure what you mean by "post-trauma." Would the trauma be reading my work

My last beta actually volunteered upon reading my query in SYW. She was so enthusiastic: read the entire book quickly in a couple days, then starting going back and giving me detailed comments, chapter by chapter. We had long email exchanges. It was ever so helpful. And she swore she'd never be one of those betas who suddenly go silent and never respond to emails.

Guess what happened?

Ugh, yes. I exchanged manuscripts with someone and gave them a hugely detailed line edit within a couple of days -- They, however, offered no response for over a month and after I wrote asking what happened, they finally got back to me with a paragraph. I was pretty bummed.

I think its a good idea to test people with just one chapter first to see if they're a good fit.

Also, some people write as a hobby and others do it for a living and it is important that you find someone who shares your commitment level to avoid conflict.

These comments are so discouraging for a new writer. I'm starting to think that my Dad is my best bet. Clearly other writers do not follow the golden rule.

But Crescendo, I'd venture to say the majority of beta experiences are positive, especially if you enter into that relationship knowing what you want and what to expect, having done your homework--taking the time to find a good fit/test the waters--polishing your ms as good as you can. . . iow, if you are knowledgeable and prepared. . . chances are, you'll have a positive beta experience. If you do, it can be invaluable to you. I hope you don't give up on it.

Also, I see you just hit your 50 so you can post some of your work on SYW and get some valuable crits that way. And be sure you crit others' stuff, you learn so much doing that.

Whatever you decide, good luck.

Crescendo2020 said:

These comments are so discouraging for a new writer. I'm starting to think that my Dad is my best bet. Clearly other writers do not follow the golden rule.

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Crescendo, take a look at the other thread where people praise their betas and you'll see not all of it is bad. it just takes a lot of time until you find the perfect beta/writing buddy for you. A beta reader is like a soulmate. Most of the times, you go through a lot of failed relationships until you find the one.

I have a sad beta experience to share.

I met a rather sardonic, yet friendly woman through a local writer's group. I appreciated her commentary during all the group-share events and she asked to be my Facebook friend after the group disbanded. I didn't really think she was the right fit for beta-ing my story, but my manuscript wasn't in that stage yet, anyway, and I was happy to make a "writer friend".

She sent me her entire manuscript several times over the course of the next year. I read each version promptly and provided her with detailed, constructive feedback. Each time I provided feedback, I was gentle. While her story wasn't my cup of tea, I praised her for the things she did well and suggested--in positive ways--how she could strengthen the things that either confused me or lost my interest.

All in all, I think I gave her more than decent feedback and it seemed as if she appreciated it, considering she kept sending me revisions throughout the year.

She kept thanking me for the attention I gave her work and continued to ask me when mine would be ready for her to return the favor. I was wary, as our genres are quite different, but I felt we had formed a sort of bond after a year of my beta reading for her. So, when I finally finished my second draft, I sent my manuscript her way.

I printed it out and bound it all nice and fancy-like at a FedEx/Kinkos place so she could mark up a physical copy. I gave it to her with a smile and a "thank you" and we spent a few hours together talking about movies and whatnot before I went home.

She sent me a message that night. She hated my novel already...so much so that she felt the need to message me about it ASAP. She wanted to warn me ahead of time that she wasn't sure she'd be able to finish it, as it was too horrible to maintain her attention and she really had better things to do.

I thanked her for...well...starting to read it? I guess? And told her I hoped she'd find that it would grow on her if she kept reading it. I asked her if she wanted me to come pick it up, though, to save her time, and she wrote back with, "No, I will try to finish reading it."

She told me she showed her husband (and who knows who else) and that he hated it as well. I was hurt that she would betray my trust and show another person my writing and asked her if she would try to ensure that didn't happen in the future. Her response? "You should be grateful I would show someone else. You shouldn't be ashamed of your writing. You should show it off." Well, I'm not ashamed of it...I just don't want anyone other than my beta reader to be reading it. Otherwise, I'd throw it up on a blog and let the whole world have at it.

About a week later (and I do credit her for giving me very prompt feedback, at least) I met her at her place to retrieve my manuscript. She had me sit down and then explained to me in gruesome detail how much she hated the way I write and how my story was both boring and stupid. She insisted that, had she rented my book at a library, she would have returned it immediately and after reading only half of the first chapter (out of 30).

I asked her what I could do to improve that first chapter, for example, and she just told me to make it less boring. I wasn't sure what to do with that feedback, as I didn't think my story was boring at all. I asked her to elaborate and she told me that she wasn't sure how I could make it less boring, but perhaps I could consider something more "wild and interesting" like "make it all take place in the 1800s!"

My manuscript is a fantasy, set in a fantasy world.

Over the next hour, she used unbelievably colorful metaphors to describe to me how much she hated my writing. "Your descriptions are like a broken box of Walmart cookies," she said, "All I want is to eat just one piece of Godiva chocolate! Have you ever had Godiva chocolate? It's so much better than a broken Walmart cookie."

I don't know why I stayed. I was trying so hard not to jump up and shout at her for being so rude that I think I started grinding my teeth. I guess maybe it was because my brain was clinging to the fact that this couldn't even be real life. Why on Earth would someone be so mean? She offered nothing constructive and nothing positive, save the single suggestion that I simply scrap it all and start over.

And turn everyone from my fantasy story into a saloon character from the wild west.

After she exhausted all of her insults, I managed to thank her for taking the time to read my manuscript, grabbed my purse, and left. I have always been of the belief that if someone critiques your work, you shouldn't argue with them. They are giving you their opinion and arguing simply shows you aren't willing to accept it...so why did you ask for it in the first place?

Still, I was stung and horrified. I was used to negative feedback. I went to an art school and work in advertising. Clients and students reject(ed) things with blunt dislike all the time. It's normal, and I feel I've gained a pretty thick skin from the experience. This was completely different. Nobody had ever torn into me quite like this before, and over something as subjective as a story! The way she delivered her feedback was, as I said before, nothing short of hateful. She was simply mean about it and wasted both my time and hers, hurting my feelings in the process.

I'd had eight other readers before her and all of them had given me glowing, positive feedback, yet now, because of her one review, I felt like somehow the integrity of every positive review had been called into question.

I didn't write anything for months. I just took a break, I guess, and collected my thoughts. I eventually wrote her a lengthy Facebook message, thanking her again for reading my work but also mentioning how her feedback could have been phrased in a more friendly way. She responded with something rather dismissive, and basically told me it was amusing to her that her feedback had hurt my feelings.

...Then she asked me when I'd be able to provide her with feedback on the latest revision of her manuscript.

Unfortunately, we're no longer in touch. Lol.

JRehnay said:

I have a sad beta experience to share. . .

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Oh my. I am so sorry. I want to bitch slap. . .

That beta's response was wrong on multiple levels. You know that. I trust you also know that she is not typical. I hope you found another beta, someone whose critiques are helpful, not hurtful. If nothing else, that person serves as the poster child for how NOT to beta for someone.

You handled yourself with uncommon grace, Rehnay.

The cruelty bespeaks something else, I'm afraid. Perhaps she is jealous of your work?

kkbe said:

Oh my. I am so sorry. I want to bitch slap. . .

That beta's response was wrong on multiple levels. You know that. I trust you also know that she is not typical. I hope you found another beta, someone whose critiques are helpful, not hurtful. If nothing else, that person serves as the poster child for how NOT to beta for someone.

You handled yourself with uncommon grace, Rehnay.

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Ah, thanks very much It took a while for me to get over it as she was the first "non-family" sort of person I trusted with my work. I wanted to share the story so others knew that while this sort of thing happens, it doesn't have to be the end of the world...and it certainly doesn't mean you should stop writing. I regret that I allowed it to hurt me badly enough that I took a few months off of writing.

railroad said:

The cruelty bespeaks something else I'm afraid. Perhaps she is jealous of your work?

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I'd like to (selfishly) think so! That is something my husband tried to convince me of after showering me with vodka and threatening to "go over there! I'MMA DO SOMETHING. I DUNNO WHAT, BUT IT'LL BE SOMETHING."

railroad said:

The cruelty bespeaks something else, I'm afraid. Perhaps she is jealous of your work?

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or just a twat, or someone convinced pretentious cutting of others is the best way to establish their own credibility....

it doesn't matter; I'm nobody's idea of nice, and I've never considered going anywhere even within the same zipcode as that crit.

It can be hard, but in addition to weighing the relative merit of variosu crits, you also have to learn who's just plain full of shit.

quicklime said:

...you also have to learn who's just plain full of shit.

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I have certainly learned a lot from the experience ! Negative crits are fine, great even, but when you present them in such a way that the recipient can only imagine you are trying to outdo yourself with each comment, it might be time to review one's reason for beta reading in the first place.

Your story made me feel for you. What a terrible experience to have to go through. Sometimes...people without a lot self-esteem bring other people low to make themselves feel better. This isn't necessarily a conscious decision. She may not realize how cruel and unfair she has been. Still, you are the one suffering.

Tell you what, I'm not writing fantasy right now but I'm a big fan of the genre. If you're still in need of a reader, I'd be happy to take a look at the first 3 chapters. (Then we could go from there depending on time and if you like my beta-style, ect.)

PM me if you're up for it, but no pressure. I understand if you need to take some time to recover after that crit.

I can tell you that the lady above is an excellent beta reader. You've done three now for me, I think? Four if you count the first half of Knight. You can trust her.

JRehnay said:

She told me she showed her husband (and who knows who else) and that he hated it as well. I was hurt that she would betray my trust and show another person my writing and asked her if she would try to ensure that didn't happen in the future. Her response? "You should be grateful I would show someone else. You shouldn't be ashamed of your writing. You should show it off." Well, I'm not ashamed of it...I just don't want anyone other than my beta reader to be reading it. Otherwise, I'd throw it up on a blog and let the whole world have at it.

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I agree that her behavior was way out of line, but I have to wonder about the above point. Of course, it's implicit in beta reading that your reader shouldn't share your manuscript with the whole world--that goes without saying. Does it also go without saying that even her own spouse shouldn't see it?

If someone specifically requested that I show their manuscript to no one else, I would certainly respect their wishes. But otherwise, one other person might get to see at least a few pages.

Am I thinking about this the wrong way? What's the etiquette here?