Female Fantasy Armor

Honest Bill · May 20, 2013

Armour in reality, was pretty expensive. Nobody would waste their time wearing something which offers very little protection, since that's the whole point of wearing armour in the first place.

The woman in that picture in the OP. looks like a rich woman wearing fine fabrics and a completely pointless piece of metal hung on to it somehow.

LOG · May 20, 2013

Mr. Mask said:
Someone pointed me to an article which popped up on the PA Report, about armour for female characters in games: http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/...d-armor-and-in-fact-breast-shaped-chest-plate

What surprised me.... was this article popped up about two weeks ago.

The reason I'm surprised, is I expected this was common knowledge by now. I've seen it pop up back into popular discussion every now and again, and it makes me wonder: We people be perpetually discussing this, and arguing about it, forever?

I guess I'm not helping that situation, by bringing the argument to here... but, I'm curious what the writing community thinks about this. We tend to be ahead of games on trends and addressing social issues, writing books and the like, so I'm interested in what your opinions on this subject - and it perpetuity - might be.

Alessandra Kelley said:
The article in the OP was simply talking about someone else's article. Here's the original: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/05/boob-plate-armor-would-kill-you

The idea of a forward fall onto onto of those things and what it would do to one's ribcage and internal organs is pretty cringeworthy.

I wonder if anyone has traced the visual development of lift-and-separate armor for ladies. I suspect it probably got started during the nineteenth century with the slightly salacious (for the time) costuming possibilities in Wagner's operas.

Actually, both of those articles are descended from this post at the Mad Art Lab.
I think it's pretty good, and it has some authority behind it.

kuwisdelu · May 20, 2013

Roxxsmom said:
Most of the male character models in the games I've played are kind of ugly, actually, with excessively square features nasty expressions on their faces (I think they're supposed to be fierce looking), while the females tend to have plump, red lips and pouty/vampish or innocent/doe-eyed expressions.

Half of the reason I tend to play female characters in games these days is because the male designs are ugly as sin. Give me a bishounen character model and maybe I'll play as a male.

PeteMC · May 21, 2013

Roxxsmom said:
Of course, the male character models could represent what predominantly male graphics designers think female players find sexy?

Sadly, I think the male character models represent what predominantly nerdy little graphics designers think a tough guy looks like...!

Mr. Mask · May 21, 2013

PeteMC said:
Sadly, I think the male character models represent what predominantly nerdy little graphics designers think a tough guy looks like...!

Despite stereotypes, most people in games and other such media don't meed the definition of nerds. Many of them will be ordinary people, much like us.

Probably, a major source of this recurring theme of weird art design, is actually the executives behind these kinds of projects. Doing new and original things is seen as a risk, so it is discouraged--this goes for sexualization especially, I suppose.

Another thing, is trends. When you try to think of what armour you should draw on the female of a poster, you tend to look for examples to get ideas from--and so you end up using bad examples to make an unfortunate product. Making new stuff and new trends can be surprisingly hard, after all.

ClareGreen · May 21, 2013

I'm a nerd. I play MMOs. I tend not to play as a female character because not only is the armour frankly ludicrous, it also means I get people helping me and giving me things purely because of the gender of the character. I don't want or need special consideration because I'm female - let me sink or swim on my own merits, please and thank you, and I'll prove that I'm just as capable as anyone else. But it seems that to compete on a level field, I have to play a male character.

That and I'd rather play a designer's ideal of a male warrior in half-decent if rather silly armour than a designer's ideal of a female warrior, complete with cleavage, stomach, flanks and legs all on display... as a tank. I've done far too much LARP to think that's clever, and I find the idea that I should want to bloody insulting. I know I can wear proper heavy armour and keep up with the men. I've done it.

Alessandra Kelley · Jun 3, 2013

There's this blog post by Kamon Hurley.

http://aidanmoher.com/blog/featured...attle-and-slaves-narrative-by-kameron-hurley/

She's talking about the way women are depicted in stories (a good post, very well thought out) and it's illustrated by the best chosen assortment I've ever seen of fantasy women in great looking nonstupid armor.

This is what women's armor and armed women characters ought to look like.

I have no idea how much time and sifting it took Ms. Hurley to find all those images. It's quite a good collection.

Roxxsmom · Jun 3, 2013

PeteMC said:
Sadly, I think the male character models represent what predominantly nerdy little graphics designers think a tough guy looks like...!

I think you're right. Possibly what they wish they looked like

Canotila · Jun 3, 2013

PeteMC said:
Sadly, I think the male character models represent what predominantly nerdy little graphics designers think a tough guy looks like...!

That's assuming character design is predominantly done by male artists. And that the concept artists are little and nerdy (I know more than a few who have worked on big titles. They're all active healthy people)

The actual designs are done by concept artists under the direction of a design team or the art director. While most of those folks do have some knowledge of the rigging and things, it's not usually a requirement. The ability to come up with unique designs and render them in a way that the animators/riggers/motion designer/etc. teams can interpret correctly trumps all. And by that I mean, animators can look at a character sheet and tell that the barbed wire impaling the zombie has a dry rusted texture vs. damp and gloppy, the artist works well with under direction and can put aside personal preferences when those don't fit the project, things like that.

Aside from working in illustration programs and using tools like tablets to paint with, most concept artists don't have a whole lot to do with the computery part of building a game. Some even work in traditional media like acrylic paint on board.

Ultimately the final designs are the art director and design team's call. Without fail they select the designs they think will appeal most to their target demographic. It's done in a very deliberate way.

We're at a point now where women make up a sizable portion of the gaming community. It'll be interesting to see how designers try to balance the sex appeal aspect against irritating half their potential customers, as time goes on.

Roxxsmom · Jun 4, 2013

I played world of warcraft for many years, and actually, one of my guild mates' husbands had been a designer for the original game, though he did things like giraffes and bunnies rather than night elves in chain mail

From what I knew, he was a normal guy, though he worked a lot of hours.

One thing I do remember was the discussion that would ensue whenever a new "armor tier" design came out. People of different classes would gloat or bemoan what the designers had inflicted on their characters this time around. Sometimes it was amazing how ugly something was (and yes, there was some eye rolling when they started to add bare spots and plunging necklines to the female armor sets and ever-larger pauldrons to the male).

Clearly, they got it wrong sometimes, which was sort of surprising, what with all the alpha and beta testing they did with these things before they came out. I always suspected the people they got feedback from were not always "normal" players. So you're right: it is not fair to characterize the design crews themselves as nerdy (I'm sure they were often annoyed when sensible ideas were vetoed or modified), but the people who provided the feedback about what was "attractive" and "appealing" to the average player might have been.

Still, no one I knew ever quit playing WoW because they hated a particular set of armor, and got pulled in initially because a real life friend started playing. Sure other games are the same, once they hook you in. Still, if I'm buying a game I haven't heard of, and the cover art makes it look like the female characters are all going to be half-clad, I might be less interested in it.

Mr Flibble · Jun 4, 2013

In Wow our (male) healer was most perturbed when his (female) elf healer got a super duper thong. He took to wearing his tabard after that, cos otherwise it looked like he had nothing on! Though he did occasionally flash at Taurens

I got around it by being a dwarf lady. Although she needed to wear a bra cos when she ran...

Canotila · Jun 4, 2013

Roxxsmom said:
Still, no one I knew ever quit playing WoW because they hated a particular set of armor, and got pulled in initially because a real life friend started playing. Sure other games are the same, once they hook you in. Still, if I'm buying a game I haven't heard of, and the cover art makes it look like the female characters are all going to be half-clad, I might be less interested in it.

I think this is what the marketing folks are banking on. Female gamers are pretty well used to the misogyny in gaming culture. Most are at a point where they'll just roll their eyes are revealing clothes and armor, but play anyway. At most they'll write a scathing blog about how awful it is and draw little cartoons making fun of the ineffectiveness of the armor, but that's as far as it has gotten. So from their point of view, they can do it and it irritates female customers, but they still buy the game. And it pulls in certain parts of the male demographic that wouldn't otherwise be interested.

I usually end up making male characters because I don't want to watch a mostly naked chick running around for hours. I have started playing games where the girls had normal clothes at the beginning, and as it progressed the options for upgraded outfits were limited to glitzy vegas showgirl things. In those cases it totally ruined the game for me. I would have started with a guy character if I'd known, and lost the time I'd invested in building my female character. At that point it wasn't worth starting over.

Edit: The art director of Bungie worked on an early title they collaborated on another studio with. He's a big believer in utilitarian armor designs and female characters wearing clothes. They had a back and forth battle with the other studio, where he'd draw the MC fully clothed, send it over to their studio and the same illustration kept coming back with shredded tight shiny clothing, etc.

His version
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2e/Oni_Coverart.jpg

Their version
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-diDVGf0U_zU/T30TiHELCrI/AAAAAAAAAbw/NeuV355AkcA/s400/oni-3.jpg

I'm not sure which version won in the end, or if the game with shipped using both.

efreysson · Jun 4, 2013

Canotila said:
Edit: The art director of Bungie worked on an early title they collaborated on another studio with. He's a big believer in utilitarian armor designs and female characters wearing clothes. They had a back and forth battle with the other studio, where he'd draw the MC fully clothed, send it over to their studio and the same illustration kept coming back with shredded tight shiny clothing, etc.

His version
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2e/Oni_Coverart.jpg

Their version
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-diDVGf0U_zU/T30TiHELCrI/AAAAAAAAAbw/NeuV355AkcA/s400/oni-3.jpg

I'm not sure which version won in the end, or if the game with shipped using both.

The former, sensible version. I've never seen that second one. It's especially stupid since there is no clothing damage system in the game, and she never wears anything like that second outfit.

Roxxsmom · Jun 4, 2013

Canotila said:
At most they'll write a scathing blog about how awful it is and draw little cartoons making fun of the ineffectiveness of the armor, but that's as far as it has gotten.

I do remember that Blizzard added "jokes about the differences in male and female armor sets" to their list of topics they would no longer allow in their fan comics.

Female Fantasy Armor

Honest Bill

practical experience, FTW

LOG

Lagrangian

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

PeteMC

@PeteMC666

Mr. Mask

ClareGreen

Onwards, ever onwards

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

Roxxsmom

Raised by Wolves

Canotila

Sever your leg please.

Roxxsmom

Raised by Wolves

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Canotila

Sever your leg please.

efreysson

Closer than ever

Roxxsmom

Raised by Wolves