Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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Andrew Jameson

Re: A few questions

Kate and Maestro: Thank you for the replies. For the Lotus tip, I do subscribe to Lotus, but hadn't thought to check for (presumably) unagented sales. As for slush, I wasn't really looking for quotas, per se; more for some affirmation that publishers treat slush semi-seriously and that planning on submitting to a slush pile doesn't make me a loser. Maestro, good example with the river. I just think that my inner ear is calibrated to accept the passive voice in more situations than where it's warranted, so some examples are good.

Julie, if you'll accept advice from another noob, I think changing the name in the heroine's POV is perfectly acceptable, because it reflects her own inner thought in that POV. Changing it in the author's POV (by which I assume you mean a third person omniscient narrator?) is a little more dicey, but if you've been careful to identify the "author" with the horoine in other ways, seems like it might work.
 

Jules Hall

Re: A few questions

In my current novel, I have a main character who has different names used by different people. He thinks of himself as Mike, and most of his close friends do as well. He works in a military-ish organisation, so a lot of his colleagues refer to him by his rank & surname, shortened to just his surname. His immediate superior always calls him Michael (which annoys him, not that he's ever said anything about it).

In the narrative, I use the appropriate name that would be used by the POV character for the scene (I'm writing it in 3rd person limited), which means it is almost always Mike. I did get a little confused about this earlier on in the writing, but now I'm doing it this way, I think it is much clearer.

Andrew... in response to your agents dilemma, I think the answer is to write a good query letter. The impression I have is that most agents, on receiving a well written and clearly presented query that describes a story that is actually in their preferred genre will ask to see the manuscript. The reason they want the query isn't to strip out unpublished authors, but rather to strip out clueless ones.

And regurgitating previous advice re. credentials: if it's directly relevant to the story, include it, otherwise don't. If that means you don't have anything to say, let your manuscript/synopsis say it for you.
 

SRHowen

slush sales

You don't just submit full mss--well some still do take them, but if you have seen the piles of the slush at TOR--YIKES!!

You send a query letter--short sweet. Then if they ask for your ms, it is no longer part of the slush pile--it is then requested material.

As to changing a character's name--I hate books that do this. You end up wondering who the heck the author is talking about. IN the military almost everyone uses last name only. One day my hubby called someone by their first name when he was talking to me about them and I wondered who they were for most of the conversation.

I read a submission once where the author wanted more variety in his John said he said --so he had John, Johnny, Sgt Smith, Smith, and so on--I was so confused I wrote a scathing readers report--it was a good story but the names different were just too confusing.

An editor, agent or reader --reading for the first time does not have the knowledge you do of the character--they don't know he goes by three different names. So they will assume you are talking about 3 diff characters.

Shawn
 

Kate Nepveu

Re: A few questions

As for slush, I wasn't really looking for quotas, per se; more for some affirmation that publishers treat slush semi-seriously and that planning on submitting to a slush pile doesn't make me a loser.
Have some affirmations, then. => And after all, why bother taking unagented submissions, if not to take them seriously?

(_Locus_ will also be a good place for you to find agents representing authors who write similar works to yours.)
 

maestrowork

Re: slush sales

Good point about "slush" vs. "requested material."

RE: changing names. Try establishing it early on:

"Michael," the boss said to Mike Smith, "Sgt. Jones here wants to speak to you."
"Smith," Jones told Mike. "Please sit down."


Then be consistent throughout. The narrator should try to use the same name throughout the narrative, however. I remember when I read the prologue to "Da Vinci Code" I was very confused. Brown alternately called a character by his last name and "the Curator" -- at first I thought it was two different people.
 

macalicious731

Re: Character's Name: one vs multiple

In response to changing the names:

As long as you, as an author, don't continually swap names, this shouldn't be an issue. If from the beginning your character is "Mike" in the narrative, he should remain Mike throughout.

Dialogue is different. In dialogue we understand more clearly the other characters, especially in their relationships with one another. Swapping out names, I should think, is a very effective way to show personal affection (or dislike).
 

James D Macdonald

Re: A few questions

1. Rewrites: This question was asked a couple pages ago, but I don't think it was ever answered. When you *re*write, do you take a pass through on each issue individually (e.g., one pass for scene order, then another for adequate description, a third for consistant characterization, etc.) or do you smooth over the rough edges on *everything*, one pass at a time?

Sometimes this, sometimes that. Use whatever method works for you. You're going to be re-writing your story a lot of times. You won't let it out of the house until all of those issues are covered. What order you do them in, one at a time or all together, will be invisible to your readers.

2: On agents: It seems like very few markets in my chosen genre (SF/F) accept unagented manuscripts. Meanwhile, most agents want a only query letter, and no one reads manuscripts any more. So it seems like a case of "you need an agent to get a book published, but you need a published book to get an agent." Comments? Do I need to pay my dues by writing short fiction first? Or am I mischaracterizing the issue?

Having an agent isn't necessary in order to get a novel published, but it helps. Being published isn't necessary in order to get an agent, but it helps.

The one thing that's truly required is having an outstanding manuscript. If by "paying your dues by writing short fiction" you mean "practicing enough so that your manuscript will shine," then do so. The one thing you must have is that manuscript.

3. Bios: I have plenty of credentials, just none related to fiction writing. Am I correct in assuming that no one cares, and my bio is essentially a blank sheet of paper? What is relevant, in the fiction world?

What is relevant in the fiction world? If your story is about a gerbil breeder, and you breed gerbils, then say so. Otherwise, who cares about those furry little rodents?

What is relevant is a) recent, impressive sales, and b) life experience directly related to your current story.

4: Slushpiles: I've heard plenty of stories, here and elsewhere, about the awesome lack of quality found in slushpiles. But are there ever any gems? Uncle Jim, have you ever found anything worthwhile in a slushpile? Or, rather, the real question is: how often do publishers actually publish out of the slush?

Yes, I have found stuff in slush piles that has gotten passed up the line. If there's ten pieces of crud for every good story or ten thousand pieces of crud for every good story it doesn't matter if you've written the good story.

Think about it this way: with the exception of people like Paris Hilton, absolutely everyone you see on the shelves came out of one slushpile or another. (And Paris Hilton didn't write her own book; the acutal author started out in a slushpile somewhere.)

5: On writing: A question on the passive voice. I know that active verbs are preferred. However, I come from a background in technical writing, where the passive voice is often used, and I try to be conscious of my own use of active versus passive. There are times that the passive voice just sounds better to me; however, I'm suspicious of my own sense of the matter. Can you give some examples of situations in writing where the passive voice is preferred, or is it always verboten? Or, used in moderation, is it a style issue?

It's a style issue. This is where reading a lot of current fiction will help you. This is also where retyping published fiction will help you.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Character's Name: one vs multiple

My inclination is to do the following: Use Trumble for all references, until my heroine is permitted to use Harry, then use Harry for the heroine’s and author’s POV, and only use Trumble in the other characters’ dialogue.

You might find it interesting to read <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0192835092/ref=nosim/madhousemanor">The Karamazov Brothers<A> by Fyodor Dostoevsky. You'll find the characters calling one another by a wide variety of names, from very formal to very informal.

Have a plan, be consistent. Your readers are your friends.
 

JuliePgh

Character's Name: one vs multiple

Everyone,

The theme from everyone definitely seems to be one of consistency. I’m striving to blend that consistency with what seems appropriate for the story. Thank you all for your advice and comments!
-------------------------------------------
Kate,

By “Author’s POV,” I mean the third person omniscient narrator.

The reason I had the author’s change in voice in reference to Harry:

My heroine (Kim) and the reader come to truly know Harry Trumble simultaneously with the change in how Sally refers to him (from Trumble to Harry). It ‘felt’ awkward after that to refer to the couple as Kim and Trumble in “their” scenes. On the other hand, I was worried about referring to him as Harry in scenes with the other characters who only “relate” to him as Trumble.

As I wrote my chapters, I found my 3rd person narrator referring to Harry in scenes involving Kim and Harry, and referring to Trumble in scenes involving Harry with the other characters. Concurrently, I don’t believe the shift has been confusing to the reader, but then again, I’m the omniscient and biased author serving as reader at this point. The true test will be when my beta readers attack my novel.

-----------------------------------------
Jim,

If The Karamazov Brothers is anything similar in style to Crime and Punishment, which I suspect it is, then I understand what you’re saying. I have to admit, while it’s been roughly 25 years since I read Crime and Punishment, I distinctly remember drawing a chart as I was reading to keep track of which name were used by each character in reference to the other characters! Despite how much I loved Crime and Punishment, I definitely won’t put my readers, or myself, through a complex maze of character names!
 

macalicious731

Re: Character's Name: one vs multiple

I have to admit, while it’s been roughly 25 years since I read Crime and Punishment, I distinctly remember drawing a chart as I was reading to keep track of which name were used by each character in reference to the other characters!

:lol Julie, I had to do that two years ago when I read it. I remember my lit. teacher at the time warning us in advance, yet I still couldn't help it and halfway through the book I thought, "Who the heck is THIS guy??" :eek
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Character's Name: one vs multiple

For what it's worth, Doyle and I did exactly the same trick with names in <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/TSAHEAD.HTM" target="_new">The Stars Asunder</a> and <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/awoshead.htm" target="_new">A Working of Stars</a>.

I kinda think it worked.
 

JuliePgh

Character's Name: one vs multiple

Jim,
That's a comforting thought! Thank you!
 

wwwatcher

The Passive voice

I just finished reading "Final Conflict: A Requiem for Boone" by Debra Doyle & James D. MacDonald and I remember noticing that the authors used the passive voice a little when they were describing scenes. (I hope I got the title right by the way.)

Just thought I'd throw in that piece of information for you Andrew.

Watcher:thumbs
 

pencilone

Speed Writing or Writing in Flow

What do you guys think about speed writing?

I know that it's up to the individual preferences in the end, but has anyone found that it helps to write in short bursts of speed writing (let's say half an hour of writing very quickly about a specific subject, maybe even having some key words for start).

Writing in flow means that the Muse is next to you and she whispers into your ear... Is it possible to achive that by speed writing? Is the prose better, do we get in touch with the subcounscious easier?

Thanks,

Pencilone
 

paritoshuttam

Re: Character's Name: one vs multiple

Other famous books with confusion about the names of characters:

War and Peace. (Most big Russian novels would have this problem.) There are around 400 characters in all, and since each Russian name has three parts, and different people call the same person by different parts depending on their relationship.

One Hundred Years of Solitude. The names get repeated within generations, and with Garcia Marquez's style of jumping back and forth in time... the family tree at the end of the book is helpful.

The Sound and the Fury. Faulkner seems to revel doing this. One characer changes his name to another character's name midway in the book. That threw me off completely.

Sorry for the digression into reading from writing, but found this too interesting to skip.
- Paritosh.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Speed Writing or Writing in Flow

What do you guys think about speed writing?

You mean <a href="http://www.writing-world.com/basics/block4.shtml" target="_new">this</a>?


Me, I'm a fast typist. I'm very much in favor of keeping your fingers moving on the keyboard at all times.

Generally speaking, anything that helps you get words on paper is a good thing.
 

pencilone

Re: speed writing

Spot on, Uncle Jim!

Thanks for the shortcut!:snoopy

Pencilone
 

Fresie

multiple names

Most big Russian novels would have this problem

You bet they would. As a native Russian speaker, I think I have an explanation. The thing is, in the Russian language every name has dozens of variations, and a native speaker knows them all perfectly well. To a Russian reader, Anyuta, Nurka and Anna Petrovna are unmistakably the same person because it's all different versions of the same name (and naturally no writer would give the same name to two characters).

I don't think any Russian writer ever bothered to wonder if it would present a problem to an English-speaking reader. :) Talking about Dostoevsky, I'm yet to see a good (I'm not even talking about adequate) translation of any of his novels. Unfortunately, he's one of those writers where all the atmosphere gets lost in translation... :cry
 

JuliePgh

On Line Course

FYI,

For anyone reading prior posts, the links in Jim’s post 1012 (partically repeated below) have been changed since they've incrporated frames into their website. To reach the vocab lists for BIG WORDS, use this URL art3idea.ce.psu.edu:16080/art3/ then choose 'dictionary' in the left margin.


------------------------------------------------------------
from Jim's post 1012

Well, here are some vocabularly lists for y'all. If we want to think like artists, words give us the tools to think about our art. Here you go:

Big Words A to F

Big Words G to N

Big Words O to Z

Those lists by themselves are mind-expanding (and will give you a big edge while playing Scrabble, too).
-------------------------------------------------------
 

JuliePgh

Beta Readers

I'm writing in the SF/F genre. I only have one person who reads the genre and is willing to read my novel. I woiuld like my husband to read the novel as well, but I'm not sure if his critique will be usefull or even damaging considering his lack of familiarity with SF/F.

My questions:

1) Is it best to only use beta readers familiar with the genre?
2) If beta readers outside the genre are used, should any prep work or guidelines be provided to 'explain' how the writing may differ from other genres?
3) As for beta readers of the genre, should any guidelines be provided (i.e. what they should look for or pay attention to)?

Comments, please. Thank you.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Beta Readers

I'd take any beta readers I could get. Sometimes people who hate the genre will give you the best, most insightful comments.


I wouldn't prep them in any way. (You won't be prepping the readers in the bookstores, will you?)

The only guidelines I'd give them would be "please be honest."

Regardless of what they say, thank them. And mean it.
 

Andrew Jameson

Re: Beta readers

I'm going to disagree with Uncle Jim a little. Readers of speculative fiction have a few different expectations than readers in other genres do, particularly about the way in which the inner workings of the world (the magic, or the science, and the society in which it works); the points of reference to the contemporary "real" world are fewer. Orson Scott Card in his How to Write Science Fiction & Fantasy explains this better and in more detail.

A non-SF/F reader might very well be confused at the pacing of the exposition (or perceived lack of exposition) where a more experienced speculative fiction reader wouldn't be. It seems to me that you might want to explain this to your husband (or let him read the appropriate part in Card's book). Hopefully that would avoid a situation where he gets confused and frustrated right at the beginning, which would color his perception of the rest of the book.

Of course, it goes without saying that you shouldn't prep him at all on how you arrange things, or what goes on, or why you did what you did, in your book, but it seems to me that a little prep on SF/F reader expectations would be beneficial.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Beta readers

If you're looking for readers outside of a narrowly defined genre, you have to look at all readers and all expectations. Think of Michael Crighton in contrast with Uncle Orson: Card's books may be objectively better SF, but Crighton reaches tons more readers.
 

James D Macdonald

Today's Command

Go, and write your book.

Do it now. Come back when you have ten original pages or two hours of new writing.

The reason we're called "writers" is because we write.
 

Yeshanu

Today's Command

O Great Cyber Guru:hail

Having completed nine pages in a little over two hours despite marauding cats, vomiting kid, and bothersome neighbour, I now feel qualified to post.

Thanks for the link on speed writing. I decided last night that since I seemed to be blocked at a particular point in my novel's second draft, I'd try to speedwrite an outline. I didn't get the whole thing done this morning, of course, but the hopeful part is that I got past the part where I am blocked. So now I'm going to go back, revise to that point, then speedwrite the next part of the outline.
But the speedwriting really did help
 
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