Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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James D Macdonald

Re: And/ Because

One disadvantage that series television has (as compared with novels) is that it's impossible for the writers to go back and revise the first chapters to make them fit with the end.
 

macalicious731

Re: And/ Because

I think Whedon is very good at writing interesting villains.

I think the difference between Angel and Spike (which allowed the writers to 'overplay their cards') was that Spike asked for his soul back and Angel didn't.
 

JuliePgh

Angel / Spike

Macalicious,

Okay, now that you've dragged Angel into this, were you disappointed with the series' final episode? To me, that was almost a 'throw the tv against the wall moment' except the darn thing weighs too much. I had to reflect on the ending several times before coming up with a palatable interpretation/"way to rationalize" what the writers did. I just felt like they took an easy way out and didn't end the story.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think Whedon is very good at writing interesting villains<hr></blockquote>
I agree, although I believe he's better with plot and twists.
 

espz

Calling Grammar police!

O Grammar Police, tell me....is it lay or lie in the following sentence?

"He came up over the rise to town and looked down into the valley where all the homes lay."

And do you say roof top or rooftop? Is than an American/English thing or? :shrug
 

macalicious731

Re: And/ Because

Haha, maybe after this post we should find somewhere else to discuss - Office Party? - off of nice Uncle Jim's thread.

Honestly, Julie, I was never fully satisfied with the series after season 2. I thought 4 was absolutely terrible, 6 was hurting badly, and the only reason I actually watched 7 is because I knew it was the last season. I hardly remember anything except I thought the finale - specifically, the last couple of minutes - was a bit of a cop-out. "What do we do now?" Uh.. I dunno, the show's over so I'm going to stand around...
 

macalicious731

Re: And/ Because

O Grammar Police, tell me....is it lay or lie in the following sentence?

How about some general rules concerning that darned verb? It's a nasty one... (;
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Lie/Lay

To be a bit more responsive:

"He came up over the rise to town and looked down into the valley where all the homes lay."

Lay is the past form of to lie. (Since lie changes to lay rather than just adding -ed to become "lied" we call this a strong verb.)

"To lie" means "to be situated" or "to recline." This is an intransitive verb. That means that it doesn't take a direct object.

The present participle of "to lie" is "lying," the past particible is "has lain."

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"To lay," on the other hand, means "to place" or "to put." This is a transitive verb -- it must have a direct object.

The present participle of "to lay" is "laying." The past form and past participle are both "laid."


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A participle is a verb that's being used as an adjective (to modify a noun).

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The confusion rises here: the past form of "to lie" is spelled the same as the present form of "to lay."
 

Pthom

Re: Lie/Lay

This has to be the most concise and clear explanation of the lie/lay conundrum I have ever read.

Thanks.
 

JuliePgh

Hang/Hung

I have trouble with Hang/Hung. Would you dissect these as well, please?

Also, do you know of a good site that lists the tenses for verbs?
 

JuliePgh

Re: Made up words

I only use one or two made up words in my novel (SF&F - takes place on another world). One is used as a term of endearment (i.e. one spouse calling another 'honey' or 'dear'), without ever being defined. Should every made-up word be defined or left to the reader's imagination if the general idea is conveyed?
 

maestrowork

Hanged/Hung

"Hanged" (the past tense and past participle of "hang") is used as "to put someone to death by hanging": They hanged her at dawn. It may also be used interchangeably with "hung" but most use the latter (see below).

"Hung" is used as "to put something up": She hung the clothes on the tree. Also as a slang for "endowment" -- he's hung.


Lay/lie/laid/ -- very confusing indeed. But Jim gave very good explanations.
 

maestrowork

Re: Made up words

If the meaning is very clear, I'd say leave it for the readers. After all, fantasy readers are used to made-up words.

If not, you may want to explain it very briefly, in a non-intrusive way, like: he called her ____ again, whenever he felt intimate with her.
 

Kate Nepveu

Re: Made up words

JuliePgh: since you're writing in the sf genre, your readers will not necessarily expect you to explicitly define a term of endearment if they can work it out fairly easily from context. I think you're probably okay, pending your betas' comments.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Lie/Lay

To add to the fun: "To lie" (to make an untrue statement) is a weak verb (forms the past tense by adding -ed), and doesn't take a direct object. Its present participle is "lying."

"To lay" is even more fun.

To beat down with force (Sir Reginald began to lay about him.)

To bury (Sir Reginald was laid in the churchyard.)

To copulate with (Sir Reginald got laid in the churchyard.)

To set in position (Sir Reginald laid the table.)

To put on a surface (Sir Reginald laid plaster.)

To place an immaterial thing (Sir Reginald laid stress on grammar.)

Sir Reginald also laid rope, laid plans, laid taxes, laid a bet, and laid his Aunt's ruffled feelings. Meanwhile, Sir Reginald's hen laid an egg.

That's a whole lot of laying going on.

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Hang/ hung:

"To hang" means "to suspend from above."

As a strong verb, hang changes its form in the past to become [/i]hung[/i]. As a weak verb, used of people in terms of exection, it adds -ed to become hanged. "She hung the picture," vice "Fred was hanged." On the other hand, Sadie hung onto the rope all night.

Hang on the Bell, Nellie
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"The stockings were hung by the chimney with care/ In hopes that Saint Nicholas soon would be there."

-- A Visit from St. Nicholas

vice

"'Shoot and be damned you rogue' said he/ 'And you'll be hanged and you'll be hanged for murdering me'."

-- Sovay

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"I'll be hanged!" Sir Reginald exclaimed, when he saw the wallpaper Lady Anne had hung in the parlor.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Hang/Hung

Tenses of words:

Oh, dear.

Depending on who you believe, English has only two tenses (present and past), or thirty-six. Or some number in between.

English is a fiendishly difficult language.
 

espz

Re: Lie/Lay

Thank you! I knew it SOUNDED right, but I didn't know WHY. Now I do. I guess that's why we're paying you the big bucks! (or at least buying your books!)

Anyone have any strong feelings on roof top versus rooftop?
 

ChunkyC

Re: Made up words

I agree with Kate about made-up words in SF/F. Let context do the explaining. Think of DUNE by Frank Herbert and all the myriad names for organizations, planets, etc. Did he tell us who the Fremen or the Bene Gesserit were? No, he showed us.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Lie/Lay

Anyone have any strong feelings on roof top versus rooftop?

Just be consistent. When the book is bought (as it will be if the story is compelling, regardless of whether you use roof top or rooftop) the publisher will give you a copy editor who will change it to house style.

If the story isn't compelling, the book won't be bought, regardless of whether you use roof top or rooftop.
 

robertquiller

Questions...

My, my; if these questions of usage begin to occupy us so fully, we'll have to retitle the thread "Uncle Jim's Semantic Epigrams."
 

Yeshanu

Re: Lie/Lay

Personally, I think it's been a fascinating discussion, one even those of us who entered at about page 30 can enter into. And using the verbs "to lay" and "to lie," not to mention "hanged" and "hung" make it all the more interesting... :b
 

reph

Re: Made up words

For questions about single words, like "roof top" versus "rooftop," consult a dictionary. Most likely, the editor will agree with your dictionary.

I believe that made-up words are introduced more smoothly if you don't explain them to the reader.

First draft:

"Uh-oh, dezisch, we're out of squergle food," Bob said. Dezisch is a term of affection used between near relatives on Bob's planet. A squergle is a common house pet that somewhat resembles a terrier with three pairs of ears.

Second draft:

"Hi, dezisch, I'm home!" Bob said. "Has the squergle had her litter yet?"
 

JoannaC

made-up words

They use a lot of made-up swear words in SF tv to get the cursing past the network censors :) Off-hand I can think of Farscape, Firefly (also lots of Chinese) and Red Dwarf.

Book-wise, there are some lovely examples of made-up language (plus some really nice uses of Latin) in Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow, if you are looking for a case study. She is an anthropologist so she knows her world-building :) Small example of how to work some exposition in gracefully:

Reaching behind her ear, Emilio's hand suddenly revealed a flower.

"Si zhao!" Askama exclaimed, startled out of the pattern of repetition.

"Si zhao," Emilio repeated, "A flower." He glanced back at the adult, whose mouth was open and ovalled. There was no move, so he went on, producing then two flowers from nowhere.

"Sa zhay" Askama cried, giving him what might be an indication of plural formation.

"Sa zhay indeed, chiquitita," he murmured, smiling.
 

Kate Nepveu

The Sparrow

I liked _The Sparrow_ a lot, though in retrospect I can see that it's flawed in some serious ways. However, under no circumstances should one read the sequel.
 

James D Macdonald

FAQs

From another thread:

That said, there are a lot of common questions about this industry (how about self-publishing? simultaneous submissions ok? do people really get discovered in the slush? do I really have to use that godawful Courier?) whose answers could be collected in a FAQ. The arcana of Key Lime Pies and Celtic Knotwork should stay in the thread where it is.

How about self-publishing?

<Blockquote>
Don't do it, unless you're writing specialized non-fiction for a defined niche audience.

Self-published poetry is standard.

If you're going to self-publish, actually self publish. Don't go to one of the vanity presses that have started disguising themselves as "self-publishing services."</Blockquote>

Simultaneous submissions ok?

<Blockquote>
Yes, if and only if the publisher says "simultaneous submissions are okay" in their guidelines.</Blockquote>


Do people really get discovered in the slush?

<Blockquote>
Yes. With some exceptions every author you see on the shelves in your local bookstore came out of one slushpile or another.</Blockquote>


Do I really have to use that godawful Courier?

<Blockquote>
Yes. Don't ask why, don't argue, just do it.</Blockquote>

<hr>

Lime Pie

Celtic Knotwork
 
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