Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Re: Exercises

Julie, ask a few more betas to read it first. If five people say the same thing, then it may be something you should consider.

I agree with Uncle Jim. Give your main character central stage (even if he's a weaker character than your minor one) and give him a real, interesting problem. It's okay if your second bananas are more interesting (most second bananas are).

Re: Re: Caring about the Character & Presence

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The reader will automatically bond with the first character they meet. Show the protag a) with a problem, and b) doing something. <hr></blockquote>

Chap 1 starts with the character tracking someone and worrying about whether or not she'll be able to appease her boss after she screwed up. I do reveal character, advance plot, but I'm not sure exactly sure what you mean by support theme (is this a character's internal conflict?).

My reader said he liked how Ch 1 started with action and he describes my character as I intended her to come across. I've typed my favorite author's first chapter and conflict between characters seems to be key. My conflict b/w characters starts four paragraphs down, but I feel I need the first few paragraphs to set up character and conflict.

Re: Re: Caring about the Character & Presence

Then, Julie, don't worry about it, and please yourself. Ask more beta readers for their input.

conflict

conflict does not have to be between characters--it can be within as well, or with nature. SO often a writer assumes conflict means it has to be between characters.

Whenever I read the line similar to but I need to set this up--I cringe. Most of the time it means there is a flaw in the way the story is done. I am not saying this is the case in your story. (I've not read it) But if you need to set the stage maybe you are on the wrong stage--you may be standing on the back story one and need to move on to the place the conflict starts and to put the main character center stage in the middle of it. The real conflict not just action. The reader is going to bond with the character who has the greatest conflict in their story life no matter who is introduced first.

Shawn

Caring about the Character & Presence

Maestro,

I think you're right, I need more readers to get a consensus going. My protag is center stage, and I just realized how to make her problem more of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

-----------------
Jim & Maestro, as always, thank you!

Re: Caring about the Character & Presence

When beta readers tell you there's a problem they're usually right. When they tell you what the problem is they're usually wrong.

Re: Caring about the Character & Presence

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The real conflict not just action.<hr></blockquote>

SRHowen, thank you. Your words helped me put my 'problem' in focus. I was starting with the character's internal conflict before reaching the action without realizing it, however that conflict was burried. Once your words sank in, I revised with a new outlook. My begining is much stronger now, thanks!


As an aside, I have to say it's incredible how much my beginning (and writing in general) has changed (and improved!) based on the past conversations of this thread!

Re: Can't write myself out of my book

I've gotten about half way through this thread from the point I came in at (somewhere around page 72) and as of yet haven't found this issue. So I hope I'm not bringing up something that has already been discussed. If so, just direct me.

I can't write myself out of my book. Not literally, I'm not a character. I seem to have found myself in a corner and I'm stuck. Thing is, I know how it begins, the middle, and how it ends, and I'm satisfied with what I have, but I reach the 3/4 mark (the point where I start moving from the middle to the end) and I can't seem to find my way to the end.

I have the first draft written, didn't like the journey to the end in that one (from this 3/4 mark point), then went about outlining the novel, much like Jim does from what I've read, have been rewritting along the way, but I keep getting stuck at the same point.

I've broached twenty million different angles and nothing seems to fly. I guess the question that keeps coming up is when do you know that the story isn't working, or rather, how do you know if the story isn't working? And at what point, if there is one, do you hang it up and move on to something new? Or is it a matter of determination and making it work? I really want to make it work, but frustration is getting the best of me. Is there a way out?

Re: Can't write myself out of my book

Okay. Let's see what we can do for you, madeya.

Possibilities: The first one that comes to mind is that the ending you have in mind for this story isn't the right ending.

So ... go to that 3/4 point, and go in some different direction. Forget what you had planned for them. See where the characters take you.

Second suggestion: Put this book in your desk drawer and write a whole 'nother novel, beginning to end. When you've done that, take this one out, and re-read it. Perhaps a solution will occur to you then. Or perhaps you'll say to yourself, "The desk drawer is the right place for this novel," and you'll continue in your own writing life in a different direction.

Planning

I'll only be intermittantly on-line over the next while. Family matters, y'know.

In my absence, I've asked Editrx to look in from time to time.

Re: Caring about the Character & Presence

Or, brainstorm with someone. I found that when I was stuck, it really helped when I brainstormed with trusted friends (or writing partners). It freed my mind and gave me ideas -- sometimes even epiphanies.

Re: Planning

I'll only be intermittantly on-line over the next while. Family matters, y'know.

Click to expand...

We have families? Offline?

Re: The assignments

Assignment Thirteen Read one book from each year's best-seller list.

This is a helpful link. A whole bunch of public domain novels from the early days.

www.readbookonline.net/fictionNovel/

Trying to get through Winston Churchill at the moment. He was amazingly popular in the early 1900's and I'm trying to figure out WHY?!?! :grin

Characters and Caring // Beta Readers

James D MacDonald said:

"Ask more beta readers for their input."

I second this. The first two beta readers for my novel said they felt nothing for the characters and felt like they didn't know them (I posted a question about this waaaayyy back on this thread).

But the very next two people who read it said that they thought I had captured the characters really well.

So who to believe?

Stephen King says that if it's a tie on beta reader reaction, then the author wins by default. That's the advice I'm taking.

Cheers,

Euan

Re: Can't write myself out of my book

Thanks Jim. A btw, thanks for taking the time for the thread. It's quite useful and interesting.

I've been mulling this over since I read your post, and as I'm not ready to put this in a drawer yet, I've been looking at the opposite direction, one I've been avoiding (not sure why), but it occured to me that going that route will put my protag in the situation he fears most. At this point, I was fighting that. And really, I do know that's what you're supposed to do with those characters. Again thanks.

Re: Beta Readers

How many beta readers do you usually have read your work? I know this is going to vary. I know people who will have anyone within distance read their work, while there are others who have a limited amount of readers. I have also heard that it's not wise to have too many beta readers, though I'm not sure of the count of too many. So I'm just curious how many different readers everyone has.

Re: The assignments

Don't choose your best friends or mother as beta. Consider these:

1. Someone who reads alot and know a good book when she reads one
2. Someone who may not be a writer herself -- sometimes writers can be jaded.. you want an unbiased perspective
3. Someone you can trust -- very important
4. Someone who can be really candid and honest -- tell you straight up without sugar coating anything; but see #3.
5. Someone who knows something about your market/genre.

For when you come back--

Dear Uncle Jim:

I lurk on rec.arts.sf.composition, much as I do here, and a new topic has come up there that I thought might provide good fodder for this thread. I'm posting it now because I'll never remember if I wait until you're fully back.

Question:

is there any question that you wish new writers would ask? . . . . Are there any questions that would help a beginner improve, but which no beginner ever seems to think of asking?

Click to expand...

There are some interesting answers in that 60-odd post thread (as of now), as well.

Re: Beta Readers

From talking to writers I know, I get the impression that this depends a lot on personality and finding useful people. Sometimes you want someone for a specific role--reading a series book, or a book based on X historical event, with no knowledge of the previous books/event; reading a book to spot errors in the legal/weapons/horse bits; etc. Sometimes you just don't have lots of people you trust to be useful. It may be something you have to work out for yourself, by trial and error.

maestrowork's suggestions are good. On a slightly different note--as a reader, I know that I'm sensitive to some things, like POV and pacing, and tend not to notice others, like physical descriptions. If your potential betas can tell you about the way they approach fiction, that will help you evaluate their reactions.

Re: Characters and Caring // Beta Readers

I have three trusted beta readers and belong to a crit group that takes great pride in providing honest criticism.

By the way, I think Maestro's list of beta reader attributes is pretty damned solid. Knowledge and honesty. Without those two elements, a critique is nearly worthless.

Also keep in mind that knowledge takes many forms. I have friends who can line edit and play grammar police with the best of them, but wouldn't know a good story if it bit them in the butt. Others can spot an error in backstory from a hundred paces but can't tell a gerund from an article.

Re: Beta Readers

Maestro - My mother wouldn't even consider reading my book so I wouldn't worry about that. I was curious because I've noticed, at least with me, that if I get too much feedback it can completely throw me off. I've got my grammer police, which for me is essential because I have a tendency to write by ear. It's not that I don't know the rules of language, but from reading so much, I pick up what I like and use it. I couldn't tear a sentence apart now a days even if I wanted to. Probably should look through my english books (which I do keep on hand and use when needed). Thanks for the input from everyone. Currently I don't have a list of readers. Only the one mentioned and while he's good for the grammer, I can't say that he'll do much regarding the story. Oh yeah, and he's great for medical, weapons, and fighting (which for me, helps a lot). Since the novel isn't yet finished, I'm not currently in the need of beta readers, I just wanted to get a feel for what's too much or not enough. But I will certainly keep Maestro's list on hand.

Re: For when you come back--

Don't confuse your betas with proofers or editors.

You need to be able to self edit -- sharpen your grammar and spelling skills. You are the writer.

You may want to find someone who knows about writing to do a check on technical things like POVs, structures, etc.

You may want to join a real crit. group with other writers to iron out anything dealing with writing.

But I think the idea of betas is that they are your focus group of readers. They're either your target demographics (housewives who read horror, for example) -- and they know what they read. The questions you ask them are different from the ones you'd ask your editor/proofer. Basically, if they don't know you at all, would they buy and read the darn book and enjoy it? What bothers them and what doesn't make sense to them?

Like Jim said: if a beta tells you something is wrong with your book, she's usually right. If a beta tells you WHAT is wrong with your book, she's probably wrong. The trick is, as the original question poses: who should be your perfect beta?

Re: Beta Readers

i would think a good beta reader could also spot things like awkward sentence structure and routine matters of grammar. but the thing i hear most is, "i can police my own grammar. just tell if the damn story rings true."

Re: Characters and Caring // Beta Readers

If your book is poorly written (even if a good story), full of grammatical and spelling errors, your betas WILL tell you. No one can finish a book if it's badly written -- not even your mother.

Re: For when you come back--

I never considered that betas and proofers are two different things, and maybe that's been the problem. I was involved in a rather bad crit group a while back and come to think of it, all they did was smack grammer. Touched on POV on occasion, but most of it was grammer. They proofed and that was about it. Of course, I ran from this group rather quickly. But then I do have to say that I was involved with a group many years ago, it was a creative writing class, and the same people kept taking the class because we all got so much out of it (in fact, expanded on our own after the course disolved), and I guess they would have been what is described as good beta readers. So because of the proof group, I have a bad taste in my mouth for crit groups at the moment, but I think I'll have to search one out at some point. Shop around. This has been quite enlightening. Thanks all.