Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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maestrowork

Re: For when you come back--

When I ask for crit, I specifically ask that they don't crit my grammar or spelling errors. I ask specific questions: character development, story arcs, plot, POV, etc. or try to rewrite my proses. Granted, if they want to do some proofing, I'd welcome it, but mostly that's not the focus.
 

LiamJackson

Re: For when you come back--

I suppose, ideally, you have a beta who can do both: police the grammar and the story. However, while policing grammar/punctuation is a must, I can find no end of grammar cops to line-edit the hell of out a a story/article/traffic sign.

Many of those same grammar cops might well miss obvious misfires in POV, inconsistencies in voice, and more subtle nuances of storytelling. It takes a different kind of eye to spot those problems. Some people have both. I think most do not.

One of my current professional tasks is fleshing out terminal and enabling learning objectives in technical/scientific training material and ensuring all data is 100% accurate. I am considered extremely competent by those who sign the paychecks. However, I can't completely edit my own fiction writing (yet) to save my life. I still miss things that I feel should be obivious and it mortifies me.

I'm a work in progress. I firmly believe that with time and practice, I'll eventually be able to do the vast majority, if not all, of my own trouble-shooting. Still, I can't ever see writing fiction without the beta reader as a proving ground. My first completed novel was a smoldering beta-battleground before leaving home.

Calling all pros: Do any of you ever submit novella or novel length work without first obtaining beta reader feedback?
 

JuliePgh

Re: Beta Readers - Editing for Grammar

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The questions you ask them are different from the ones you'd ask your editor/proofer.<hr></blockquote>

Maestro,

My mom belongs to the red pen grammar squad. Last time she went through one of my novels, she made her share of grammar corrections but she also attacked style as if style is grammar. Perhaps I'm confused on how to differentiate the two. Any suggestions on how I can keep her focused on grammar?
 

maestrowork

Re: For when you come back--

Next time she marks something as "grammatically" wrong or something, point it out to her and say, it's not. It's a stylistic choice -- for example, sentence fragments or inversion. It's good to know good styles vs. bad but... a good editor shouldn't mess with a writer's style.

Or, you can simply ignore her marks on your style and just focus on the grammar. It's your choice. Just because she says something doesn't mean you have to agree.
 

JuliePgh

Re: For when you come back--

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>ignore her marks on your style and just focus on the grammar <hr></blockquote> This is difficult, as I start losing sight of what is grammar and what is style, but I like your first suggestion, thanks.

By the way, what is inversion?
 

Ashnistrike

Re: Beta Readers

I've found it useful to have several beta readers. They all react differently, and I know them all well enough to know where they are coming from. About half of them are other writers that I beta for, which means that they won't be afraid to be honest (because, at a gut level, they understand the value of good crit). Non-writers tend to soften their comments a little.

My two most useful betas:

1) Another writer, the only one of my friends who also completes and submits stories. I know his reading tastes well enough that I can tell when his complaints are ones that others will share. I also know that if something of mine really grabs him, it will grab a lot of other people. We are both deadly honest with each other's stories, and know that it won't be taken personally.

2) My first beta, who brainstormed with me through the world-building and character development. Her criticism on plot and character is close to useless--she knows things about the characters that I've never written down, and things about the plot that don't happen for three books. However, she will immediately spot plot holes, world-building flaws, and characterization inconsistencies that no one else would know were a problem. She's also my medical and combat consultant.

Incidentally, I'm not sure I agree with the statement that betas are usually wrong about what needs to be fixed. Mine tend to either be dead-on, or not suggest solutions in the first place. I suppose it depends on the betas, or possibly on the type of mistakes that the writer makes.

I know this is unusual, but I like to get beta feedback scene-by-scene, as I'm writing. Being asked, "So what happens then? Please don't kill him!" is part of my incentive to keep writing. Plus, sometimes my readers have suggestions for what to do to my characters that are much nastier than what I had in mind. :evil
 

Yeshanu

Re: For when you come back--

Don't choose your best friends or mother as beta.

Which only goes to show that in specific circumstances, rules can be broken.

I did (well, it was my dad, brother and sister who beta read, in addition to my husband and two best friends.). It worked, although my dad isn't too happy with the rewrite.

It worked because all of maestro's other criteria were met. Except for my sister, who didn't read in the genre, and so didn't understand some of the conventions.

One thing I might add is that you should probably have different betas for your subsequent drafts, because the first set already knows the basic plot, and are likely to miss any inconsistencies you inadvertently add in the second draft.

madeya,

One thing that worked for me when I was stuck (though it's truly an odd thing to do): I got up from the computer and my husband (now my ex) sat down and typed a paragraph. One that went in a totally different direction than I had expected. I responded, he responded to my response...
We kept on going. We wrote crap (literally -- my characters ended up having a food fight in the middle of a formal banquet) but it got me unstuck and my characters continued their journey.

Not a common solution, I suspect, but if you have a writer friend who's willing to play along, let them write a paragraph or two, then continue on and see where that leads you.
 

ChunkyC

Re: For when you come back--

Good discussion of beta reader's, all.

I have four primaries who read the entire book for me. Three of the four are readers of the genre I write, and I consider them intelligent and honest. The fourth is a writer who I feel is a good judge of grammar, POV, that sort of stuff. She is brutally honest. She doesn't normally read in my genre. It makes it a good test for me; if my characters/story can engage her, it's a good sign.

I also submit chapters or scenes to other serious writer friends for specific input, then try to incorporate the lessons from their critiques into the entire work.
I still miss things that I feel should be obivious and it mortifies me.
Oh how true for me as well, Liam!
 

SRHowen

LOL

Calling all pros: Do any of you ever submit novella or novel length work without first obtaining beta reader feedback?

Only to my agent. He's seen final product and knows what I can do with first drafts. I've even gave him rough ideas for plot and story over the phone and we've talked about them.

If I were looking for an agent or publisher at this point--no way.

I miss too many dumb things, from/form and such.

Reading backward from right to left helps find those, but you still miss a lot of them or at least I do.

Shawn
 

gp101

getting awfully looooong here

Is it time maybe to archive this thread as LEARN WITH JIM 1 and start anew? Just a thought.
 

DanALewis

Setting and Atmosphere

Old Uncle Jim post:
<BLOCKQUOTE>On movement, and on art.

The way to tell the difference between the real world and art is that art has borders. Pictures have frames, stages have curtains, books have covers. You have to provide the illusion that your created world extends beyond its covers, but you aren't going to need to create that outside world. We'll talk about tricks for doing that later.

I'm going to talk about chess games instead...</BLOCKQUOTE>

I realize in some ways we've talked about setting and world-building before. The modeling metaphor speaks to this, where Jim's dad hung the miniature ham hocks in the model that no one would see. So there are details that stay below the surface, info dumps that are never dumped, that contribute to the realism of the story on the top.
 

maestrowork

Re: LOL

Dan, good question. Writing is art. You don't have to paint every paintstaking detail -- you can, of course, if you choose to do so -- to make the readers imagine your full world. It's like a Monet painting: it's fuzzy, it's abstract, but you know exactly what it is and it is awesome.

But yes, little details here and there makes for a really vivid, evocative read. For example, you don't have to explain the forest of your world down to the last tree branch. That is boring. But if you use the right word in the right place, you can make the readers imagine a forest very similar to that in your mind.

The five senses are a writer's best tools. Give the readers a visual, a sound, a taste, a smell or a feel. It makes ALL the difference.
 

ChunkyC

Re: detail

Dan -- an analogy I like to keep in mind is the iceberg. Show the reader the tip, let them fill in the rest. You just have to decide what percentage of the total iceberg your 'tip' is going to be. That's the art.
 

Editrx

Re: Setting and Atmosphere

The iceberg analogy is a very good one -- show don't tell is what I often tell writers, especially newer ones. Knowing how much to show is the real art.

BTW, Uncle Jim is on phone with me now and says hello and is pleased that everyone is playing nicely.

Also, don't worry about the length of the thread: the board can handle it. He'll archive and start a new thread when he can or when he gets back.
 

ChunkyC

Re: LOL

And also remember, Dan, that the 'what kind of cereal does he eat' kind of detail can affect how your character behaves, even if you don't put it in the story.
 

Karen Ranney

Submitting without vetting

I never let anyone see my book, not even my agent, before my editor reads it. I'm funny that way.

But I confess to being the world's worst title person. I've only used one working title that ended up being on the final book. I'll ask my newsletter group to please submit titles and the winner's name goes on the dedication page. When my editor tells me the cover committee is meeting, I just sigh because I know they're going to ask me for title ideas and I'm ghastly at that.

Isn't it funny that I have no problem writing 100,000-120,000 words but I can't come up with three or four?
 

Jules Hall

Titling

I, too, hate coming up with titles. It's very hard for me. Although I think I've got a good one for my current novel-in-progress.

I also have a very similar problem with my day job -- as a manager at a small software company, I regularly have to title the small pieces of software we produce, which just ends up with myself and the other directors sitting around for hours on end getting increasingly frustrated. Until we get so annoyed with the waste of time that we just decide to use one of the bad suggestions we've already dismissed!
 

James D Macdonald

Reading

Hanging out in nursing homes gives you lots of reading time.

Have you missed me? (I'm still not fully back.)

I have thought of a wonderful exercise for y'all, though.

See ya again soon....
 

James D Macdonald

You Are What You Eat

I've been doing more reading and less writing than usual lately.

I've been thinking about what to read, in view of becoming a better/stronger/more interesting/more commercial/happier/richer writer.

My thoughts were these. If you want to be a world-class writer, it strikes me, you study with a world-class writer. You have your target -- you know what genre you want to write in -- so... find the award winners in that genre, and read those books.

Life is short. We will only read so many books. There are more books in the world than anyone could possibly read. Do you have a minute to spare to read tripe, trivia, and trash? Is tripe, trivia, and trash what you aim to write yourself?

I've already assigned you to read a pile of bestsellers (best seller is itself a genre). Think of this as a complement to that assignment.

Therefore: Next assignment, folks. Name your genre, pick up the award winners in that genre for the past ten years, and read 'em. Read 'em with your critical eye, with your writer's eye. How did the author tell the story? How were the effects produced? How are they similar? How are they different? See how the masters did it, go you and do likewise.

So: The Lists.

The National Book Award

1994 A Frolic of His Own - William Gaddis
1995 Sabbath's Theater - Philip Roth
1996 Ship Fever and Other Stories - Andrea Barrett
1997 Cold Mountain - Charles Frazier
1998 Charming Billy - Alice McDermott
1999 Waiting - Ha Jin
2000 In America - Susan Sontag
2001 The Corrections - Jonathan Franzen
2002 Three Junes - Julia Glass
2003 The Great Fire - Shirley Hazzard

World Fantasy Award

1994 Lewis Shiner, Glimpses
1995 James Morrow, Towing Jehovah
1996 Christopher Priest, The Prestige
1997 Rachel Pollack, Godmother Night
1998 The Physiognomy by Jeffrey Ford
1999 Louise Erdrich, The Antelope Wife
2000 Martin Scott, Thraxas
2001 Declare, Tim Powers
2002 The Other Wind, Ursula K. Le Guin
2003 The Facts of Life Graham Joyce

The Pulitzer Prize

1995 The Stone Diaries by Carol Shields
1996 Independence Day by Richard Ford
1997 Martin Dressler: The Tale of an American Dreamer by Steven Millhause
1998 American Pastoral by Philip Roth
1999 The Hours by Michael Cunningham
2000 Interpreter of Maladies by Jhumpa Lahiri
2001 The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay by Michael Chabon
2002 Empire Falls by Richard Russo
2003 Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides
2004 The Known World by Edward P. Jones

The RITA Award (Romance)

Many <a href="http://www.readersread.com/awards/rita.htm" target="_new">sub-genres</a> including historical romance, regency romance, romantic suspense, paranormal romance, contemporary romance, traditional romance, and inspirational romance.

The Edgar Award (Mystery)

1995 The Red Scream, Mary Willis Walker
1996 Come to Grief, Dick Francis
1997 The Chatham School Affair, Thomas H. Cook
1998 Cimarron Rose, James Lee Burke
1999 Mr. White's Confession, Robert Clark
2000 Bones, Jan Burke
2001 The Bottoms, Joe R. Lansdale
2002 Silent Joe, T. Jefferson Parker
2003 Winter and Night, S.J. Rozan
2004 Resurrection Men, Ian Rankin

The Bram Stoker Award (Horror)

1994 Dead in the Water by Nancy Holde
1995 Zombie by Joyce Carol Oates
1996 The Green Mile by Stephen King
1997 Children of the Dusk by Janet Berliner & George Guthridge
1998 Bag of Bones, by Stephen King
1999 Mr. X by Peter Straub
2000 The Traveling Vampire Show by Richard Laymon
2001 American Gods by Neil Gaiman
2002 The Night Class by Tom Piccirilli
2003 lost boy lost girl by Peter Straub

The Nebula Awards (Science Fiction)

1994 Moving Mars by Greg Bear
1995 The Terminal Experiment by Robert J. Sawyer
1996 Slow River by Nicola Griffith
1997 The Moon and the Sun by Vonda N. McIntyre
1998 Forever Peace by Joe Haldeman
1999 Parable of the Talents by Octavia E. Butler
2000 Darwin's Radio by Greg Bear
2001 The Quantum Rose by Catherine Asaro
2002 American Gods by Neil Gaiman
2003 Speed of Dark by Elizabeth Moon

<HR>

Being a writer means that you have homework every day for the rest of your life.

But ... we're readers too, we writers. Primarily, we're readers. We write because no one else has written exactly the story we want to hear.

This is a light burden.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: The assignments

Trying to get through Winston Churchill at the moment. He was amazingly popular in the early 1900's and I'm trying to figure out WHY?!?!

Look with your writer's eyes. What is this writer trying to do? What is he giving to his audience?

And remember, the reason that when the British Prime Minister, Sir Winston Churchill wrote, this person is why the British chap wrote as "Winston S. Churchill," so that he wouldn't be confused with the best-selling author of historical fictions.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Can't write myself out of my book

but it occured to me that going that route will put my protag in the situation he fears most. At this point, I was fighting that. And really, I do know that's what you're supposed to do with those characters.

My long-time writing partner says, "Writing is about a lot of things, but being kind to your characters isn't one of them."

Believe that.

When you can't get to the ending you imagined, that's a clue that it's the wrong ending. Find a new/better one.

There's one ending that I've been trying to reach for eight novels now.

Be true to your characters; be true to yourself. That's what's required of the novelist.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: The assignments


1. Someone who reads alot and know a good book when she reads one
2. Someone who may not be a writer herself -- sometimes writers can be jaded.. you want an unbiased perspective
3. Someone you can trust -- very important
4. Someone who can be really candid and honest -- tell you straight up without sugar coating anything; but see #3.
5. Someone who knows something about your market/genre.


And another -- someone who has never read a word of yours before; someone who doesn't know your world, who doesn't know your voice. The naive reader in the bookstore. The first reader at the publisher.
 
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