How forgiving of scientific inaccuracy are you in novels

kuwisdelu

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Just a wee bit prone to anxiety I am :D

When flying, the key is really to tap into your inner zombie.

You just gotta convince yourself you don't care about anything and purge yourself of feelings and embrace numbness.

This is also the key to getting through security without hassles.

Nervousness or anxiety or annoyance gets you noticed.

Zombie-like boredom? Move along...
 

Albedo

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1. It's safer than driving, it's safer than driving, it's safer than driving, so why do I always get all panicky and imagine a plummet followed by a fiery crash when we're taking off?

Well, statistically, you're much more likely to go out in style during takeoff or landing than level flight. So you're not being irrational.
 

thepicpic

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If you generally aim for hard science but claim something that contradicts my fancy A-Level physics education* then I'll have some choice words before I put the book down. Similarly if you fudge up something that you could get right by, say, just spending the morning on wikipedia (or TVTropes, if you are so inclined), then I won't be sympathetic either.

That said, if you say something scientifically unlikely and have your characters call attention to the improbability, I will likely approve. Hand waving is an important part of science fiction.

*It was barely a pass, but a pass nonetheless.
 

jjdebenedictis

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When flying, the key is really to tap into your inner zombie.

You just gotta convince yourself you don't care about anything and purge yourself of feelings and embrace numbness.

This is also the key to getting through security without hassles.

Nervousness or anxiety or annoyance gets you noticed.

Zombie-like boredom? Move along...
I find a general air of happy-go-lucky scatter-brainedness is nearly as effective for getting past the gateposts without undue scrutiny.

Of course, I still get very anxious during landings, but that's because that dropping sensation gives me motion sickness.
 

buirechain

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I think I agree with a lot of what's being said. The requirement for scientific accuracy depends a lot on context. How central it is, how far in the future it is, etc.

I fully expect a lot of the science to be speculative, things that might be but aren't yet, and therefore might turn a different way than we can predict. A lot of what we see now as hard blocks may be things we could work around (which is why it's good that a lot of FTL involves leaving normal space and entering some sort of space that we don't and can't yet know the rules for)

I'm also much more happy to accept some distant future with some form of FTL than a near future that obeys relativity--ish. I can think of one story that tried to obey the basics of what we know about sub-light travel, but didn't bother to do any of the math (or ask anyone else to do the math). It was the veneer of hard sf that bugged me, most. That said, I do appreciate as thepicpic said hand waves that acknowledge that FTL has to find a way around Einstein, and I appreciate that I see a fair amount of stories where FTL has drawbacks. I also appreciate FTL in star trek more than, say, falling from lunar orbit to San Francisco in 15 minutes, because we know the physics of the later.

I know this started out by talking about space travel, but I find stories going off the rails for me with other science. My personal pet peeve is that even a lot of supposedly hard sf that deals with biology is really poor with the science. And most stories that involve viruses have no clue about what viruses can and can't do--they tend to be boogie-microbes. My big pet peeve there, really, is that a lot of what gets used isn't something that there is much room to speculate on. Viruses tend to behave in certain ways that authors ignore. And what annoys me more is when I'm reading something and decides to weaponize a certain type of virus--probably picking the type because it's in the public consciousness and sounds scarier--but if they had done a little more research they could have easily picked a type of virus that didn't leave me doing a double take. Ok, there probably aren't that many people who would notice, but it doesn't take that much effort to do the research. I wonder, at times, if some writers don't do the research more by reading other writers than by reading pop-sci (or even wikipedia). Anyway, there are ways to speculate about viruses, especially their deliberate manipulation where they could be made to do things that just aren't done in nature (within limits), but much of what I see still gets the basics wrong.

I think part of what gets me is that there are basics writers can get right if they put in the effort, and there are things that we need to speculate. Good grasps of basics help develop the speculative elements. To throw in an example from fantasy, I recently read Alif the Unseen which is about a computer hacker in the Arab world. I wished the author had done more research on computers and programming. The title character starts off supposedly doing programming that should be possible in the world today--but there are a lot of errors (and I've only done a very small amount of programming). At a certain point when the title character is introduced to the world's magic, he adapts that magic for computing purposes. If the basics had been in place, I would have had an easier time suspending disbelief for the magical computing. I also think that the author would have had an easier time describing what the character does when things take a magical turn.

That said, it takes an awful lot for me to put a book down, and it's far more likely to happen with plot problems. I'm more likely to switch to skimming, part of that is because a lot of the reading I do serves as a basis to know what's out there and inform my writing. I'm also more likely to put a book down (or throw it across the room) if the inaccuracies start lending themselves to an anti-science message.
 

Rina Evans

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I read a novel where the author actually got space travel and communication right by mentioning all the time how long it took for the messages to travel between ships, and how space wars are so delayed because of it. It actually ruined my enjoyment of things.
 

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I read a novel where the author actually got space travel and communication right by mentioning all the time how long it took for the messages to travel between ships, and how space wars are so delayed because of it. It actually ruined my enjoyment of things.

That can be an issue. Some stories benefit from the limitations placed by our current understanding of light speed physics, but not all do. If your story is about, say, a person who travels to different star systems for her job, and she has to deal with the disconnect between her subjective experience of time and the years that take place between her visits for everyone else, then great. But if the story needs the travel to take place in a matter of weeks or months instead, well, you'll need some sort way of bypassing the speed of light.

SF has always employed a certain amount of hand waving when the story requires it, and speed of interstellar travel is certainly one of those areas that sometimes needs crunching.
 

GeoWriter

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NRoach
iPhones aside, it's a pretty solid point. People, by and large, don't know how half the stuff they use everyday actually works.
Cars, phones, computers, light switches, taps; you name it.

I find the idea of a future in which everyone can roll of the details of how a warp drive works, in any level of detail, pretty unrealistic. Stuff doesn't matter to people until it stops working.



Well, that's why you pick a character to whom it does matter.

Yeah! That's the book I want to read!
 

Roxxsmom

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I find a general air of happy-go-lucky scatter-brainedness is nearly as effective for getting past the gateposts without undue scrutiny.

Of course, I still get very anxious during landings, but that's because that dropping sensation gives me motion sickness.

I don't find the landing as nausea inducing as the banking right after takeoff or the gut churning turbulence that occasionally happens when flying over the midwest during thunderstorm season. I always tranq myself up good with Dramamine before a flight. I'm not too vulnerable to motion sickness, but at least it makes me sleepy enough to nap in those seats that no longer go back. I remember being very nervous on a flight once, though, when the guy sitting next to me was sweating, swallowing hard and gripping his wrist as we landed. I've never had anyone "explode" near me on a plane, and I would not enjoy the experience.

I don't think I've ever been singled out for enhanced treatment at a security checkpoint. Dull, bland, middle-aged, femaleness probably helps there. I have a story from a friend who was flying with his little dog in a carry on shortly after all this heightened airport security went into effect. The agent singled him out and opened the "sherpa" bag (which are soft-sided, mesh animal carriers that fit under airplane seats), and stuck her face down in. The dog (fortunately a very friendly little guy) jumped out and licked her nose. She waved him on.

Well, that's why you pick a character to whom it does matter.

Well, only if understanding the day to day workings of the technology is important to the story. If the story is about a character who has to develop a warp drive in order to win a war, then it makes sense to spend some time talking about the physics. But if the starship is merely the conveyance that makes the story possible, then it's probably better not to open yourself up for nit picks.

After all, if we knew exactly how to make futuristic technology work, it wouldn't be futuristic.

It's kind of like magic systems in fantasy. If you provide too many details, it actually makes it harder for some readers to suspend disbelief.
 
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Well, only if understanding the day to day workings of the technology is important to the story. If the story is about a character who has to develop a warp drive in order to win a war, then it makes sense to spend some time talking about the physics. But if the starship is merely the conveyance that makes the story possible, then it's probably better not to open yourself up for nit picks.

After all, if we knew exactly how to make futuristic technology work, it wouldn't be futuristic.

It's kind of like magic systems in fantasy. If you provide too many details, it actually makes it harder for some readers to suspend disbelief.


Well, yeah.
 

jjdebenedictis

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I always tranq myself up good with Dramamine before a flight. I'm not too vulnerable to motion sickness, but at least it makes me sleepy enough to nap in those seats that no longer go back. I remember being very nervous on a flight once, though, when the guy sitting next to me was sweating, swallowing hard and gripping his wrist as we landed.
I used to dope myself up on Gravol, but I've since learned those acupressure wrist bands are enough for me. I now wear those to fly and to watch movies on a big screen. (Sometimes the seats in theatres really ought to come equipped with a seatbelt and a barf bag too.)
 

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This sounds to me like a debate over the Science to Fiction ratio in Sci-Fi. I don't think there is a specific line that once crossed makes any Sci-Fi unbelievable. Sci-Fi based in real science is all the more interesting because it's possible, but I don't think that is necessary at all. I think it very much depends on the author's ability to sell the concept in a convincing manner.

Tons of classic Sci-Fi media go beyond what we know are constants in the universe, and since they're literally "impossible" shouldn't they be classified as Fantasy? But we don't consider these stories Fantasy because its explanation is scientific, and (even if false) convincing. You don't necessarily need to know what you're talking about, you just need to sound like you do.
 

benbradley

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Tons of classic Sci-Fi media go beyond what we know are constants in the universe, and since they're literally "impossible" shouldn't they be classified as Fantasy? But we don't consider these stories Fantasy because its explanation is scientific, and (even if false) convincing.
I don't consider such stories fantasy because there is some "plausible" (even if impossible) science involved.
You don't necessarily need to know what you're talking about, you just need to sound like you do.
For space opera that may be true (and admittedly that might be a substantial part of the SF market), but not for hard SF fans such as me. Many authors write SF because they know the science and they want to write stories in which science affects the story. If the author doesn't know about the science, either there's nothing other than the characters' actions to interest me, or what "science" is in the story is wrong and it throws me out of the story.

Here's a definition (oh, no, this is becoming another one of THOSE "What is <genre>?" threads...) from Isaac Asimov:
Science fiction can be defined as that branch of literature which deals with the reaction of human beings to changes in science and technology.
http://thethunderchild.com/Books/IsaacAsimov/Quotes/OnScienceFiction.html

With this in mind, it helps a whole lot if the writer knows something about science or technology.

I like those other Asimov quotes too, especially the one from TV Guide.
 

kuwisdelu

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Here's a definition (oh, no, this is becoming another one of THOSE "What is <genre>?" threads...) from Isaac Asimov:

Science fiction can be defined as that branch of literature which deals with the reaction of human beings to changes in science and technology.

http://thethunderchild.com/Books/IsaacAsimov/Quotes/OnScienceFiction.html

With this in mind, it helps a whole lot if the writer knows something about science or technology.

What then would be the branch of literature which deals with the reaction of human beings to life in general, and uses changes in science and technology as a backdrop and overarching metaphor for those reactions?
 

NRoach

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What then would be the branch of literature which deals with the reaction of human beings to life in general, and uses changes in science and technology as a backdrop and overarching metaphor for those reactions?

Surely that would depend on the nature of the story? Romance, horror, erotica, etc. can all exist within a sci-fi setting.
 

kuwisdelu

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Surely that would depend on the nature of the story? Romance, horror, erotica, etc. can all exist within a sci-fi setting.

Can I just call it science fiction?

~Thus continue the adventures of a magic realism writer who enjoys mixing technology with the supernatural~
 
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Nivarion

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I'm forgiving of most things if they don't introduce a massive plot hole. An example of something that I just couldn't forgive was in that movie 2012 when they claimed the planet's core was melting because of "Radiation from the sun."

So in short, if a fifth graders can see the science is obviously bad, then I am irked by its being there.

If its not loosing time when going at the speed of light, or some quantum physics stuff, then whatever.
 

kuwisdelu

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I'm forgiving of most things if they don't introduce a massive plot hole. An example of something that I just couldn't forgive was in that movie 2012 when they claimed the planet's core was melting because of "Radiation from the sun."

I remember them saying that in 2012. You sure you don't mean The Core?
 

Randy Lee

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I hate science goofs. I'm not talking about faster-than-light travel. That's just assuming that at some point someone will discover a way to achieve it.

I'm talking about stuff that just showcases a total ignorance of science.

However, I won't put a book down because of a science goof. I'll stick with it if it's a good story.

Rather than put a book down, I'll complain about it to anyone who will listen. I might rant about it on my Facebook page.

One example of this is a Star Trek book in which it was asserted that, back in the 21st Century, it took two weeks for a radio message to travel from Mars to Earth. This just displays a complete lack of regard for science.

If they really wanted to say that, then there should have been some story about how the laws of physics were changed, or how the planet Mars was moved to a distant orbit, or something like that. Instead of just asserting something out of the blue that is completely unbelievable.

Another example is a book by Jack Chalker. He had a planet that, since the axial tilt was so steep that it was like the planet was laying on its side, the planet had no seasons. Unfortunately, that scenario guarantees extreme seasons.

I'm no scientist by any means. These two examples are just dismissive of very basic science. And it's not only science fiction writers that can screw up science. A contemporary novelist can have a moonless, starry night the day after a full moon. He can take glasses from a nearsighted person to focus sunlight and start a fire.

Please get the science right. At least the basic science that dumb people like me are familiar with.

And if you write a story that purposely uses outdated science, you're not writing science fiction. Writers of the past get a pass on that. You don't.
 

Roxxsmom

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What then would be the branch of literature which deals with the reaction of human beings to life in general, and uses changes in science and technology as a backdrop and overarching metaphor for those reactions?

I think the main divide between SF and fantasy in most people's mind's is that in SF technology most regard as "futuristic," regardless of how plausible it really is, contributes significantly to the plot or setting.

If there are space ships, it's SF, even if the drive isn't well explained. The point is that humans got off the dirtball called Earth and interesting conflicts ensue as our our society evolves in interesting ways as a consequence of that.

People can certainly still struggle with issues that are relatable to modern readers and which come up in other genres too (like love and hate and all that). To some extent, they have to. If the situation (or characters) is too alien, it might be hard for readers to do this.

Hard versus soft comes down to how central the tech is to the story in some cases, and how well explained it is. Dune is usually billed as hard SF, bit really it isn't. It's more about the power struggle itself, and the personalities involved, than in explaining why or how spice allows people to morph into navigators that can warp space with their minds. Really hand wavy, fantasy really. And the desert planet with a breathable atmosphere and tolerable day and night temperature fluctuations is a "kewl" setting that makes no sense ecologically or with reference to the laws of physics.

But it's really not important if it has internally consistent rules and people love the story. In this case, it's considered SF and not fantasy because it takes place in the distant future, on a planet that's somewhere in our "real" universe and humans got there in a space ship. The powers that people have in that universe are not supposed to be magic, but instead are bestowed by something concrete and physical--spice--even if it's handwavium.

Not everyone's cup of tea, of course.

The line between SF and fantasy do blur sometimes, even a lot. I think it's inevitable. The more we try to nail something down sometimes, the harder it can be.

Really, we like what we like in speculative fiction. And sometimes the exceptions to our own rules are the most baffling of all.

Another example is a book by Jack Chalker. He had a planet that, since the axial tilt was so steep that it was like the planet was laying on its side, the planet had no seasons. Unfortunately, that scenario guarantees extreme seasons.

Yeah, that sort of thing annoys the crap out of me, because it suggests that the writer not only didn't do his or her homework, but simply didn't think things through. I get that a lot of these stories were written back before the internet made for easy research, but it's not that hard to logic that one through. Want a world with no seasons? Just have a world with no axial tilt. Fifth grade science (at least it was back in the old days--I don't think they have science in most grade schools anymore). Done.

A minor pet peeve of mine is the huge number of writers, SF, fantasy, and even contemporary fiction, who have no concept of the relationship to the moon phases and when the thing will rise and set.
 
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kuwisdelu

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I think the main divide between SF and fantasy in most people's mind's is that in SF technology most regard as "futuristic," regardless of how plausible it really is, contributes significantly to the plot or setting.

Heh, I know, I just like throwing wrenches in things when people try to get worked up over definitions. :evil

Just add fuel wood bamboo to the fire, I'll toss out "The Tale of the Bamboo Cutter," a 10th century Japanese folktale that some consider to be an example of ancient science fiction.
 
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Nivarion

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I remember them saying that in 2012. You sure you don't mean The Core?

As I never watched the core, I'm pretty sure it's 2012. It was when they were talking to the crazy guy on top of yellowstone. You know, right before they outran a volcano in a bush plane.
 

kuwisdelu

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As I never watched the core, I'm pretty sure it's 2012. It was when they were talking to the crazy guy on top of yellowstone. You know, right before they outran a volcano in a bush plane.

Ah right, I confused 2012 with The Day After Tomorrow.

Goddammit, all these horrible movies run together into a big blob of bad.