Sex Acts in Romance Novels (esp Hist.)

Jamie Stone · Jan 16, 2014

Somewhere in the blogosphere I've seen something lately mentioning that certain sex acts aren't welcome in most Romance novels, particularly historicals, and that actual penetrative sex (in hetero romance, at least) is what readers are looking for. I can understand why masturbation wouldn't be depicted or at least not dwelled on for a lack of moving character development along, although in one of Joanna Bourne's books (I think it was Black Hawk) the H asks the h if she pleases herself, which was kind of awesome to see a mention of in a romance novel. But what about other things?

Admittedly I haven't read too widely in the genre, not finding many authors whose writing style catches my interest, and my tastes do tend to run towards racier books with a high heat level, but it's true that I haven't read an oral sex scene and I certainly haven't read an anal sex scene. The only book I can ever remember with either of those in them would be Kushiel's Dart etc which are not precisely romance though they do have romance in them, and are definitely close to erotica in heat level. What about light BDSM in historicals--you can't tell me that power play is a new concept, particularly in a time when social strata and actual power disparities were a real issue in everyday life.

Is it that these sorts of things weren't done and sex really was pretty tame/vanilla, or is it that authors and/or readers aren't depicting them?

jennontheisland · Jan 16, 2014

Bertrice Small has both oral and anal in hers. And BDSM. And they're historicals. And they're ancient.

ElaineA · Jan 16, 2014

Yeah, I don't think it's a function of sex acts not being done in the 1700's. I mean, I'd wager hominids figured out a peg can go in a hole no matter where the hole is, even in the Lucy era 3-4 million years ago. I imagine the lack of certain acts is more about the audience. And publishers were probably cautious. Until FSoG, big 5 pubs couldn't be certain there would be a mainstream market for erotic content. I am a heavy romance reader and I am definitely noticing the trend toward racier in all romance genres. I think established authors, if they believe their audiences will accept it, can get away with advancing the line. The trend seems to be toward more scenes involving more than just vanilla depictions of sexual acts.

Marian Perera · Jan 17, 2014

jennontheisland said:
Bertrice Small has both oral and anal in hers. And BDSM. And they're historicals. And they're ancient.

Susan Johnson wrote some racy historicals too - I'm thinking Brazen and Taboo.

VanessaNorth · Jan 17, 2014

There are tons of historicals with all kinds of erotic content. I'd recommend checking out the historical lines from erotic romance publishers like Samhain and Elloras Cave.

I'd be wary of depending solely on heat ratings since each publisher's heat levels are different, but those can be a generally good gauge of what types of sex might be in a book, and how graphically it might be described.

Stacia Kane · Jan 17, 2014

I dunno. Most of the romances I've ever read--which tend to be historicals or paranormals--contain oral sex (and all of those I've written did, one of which was not "erotic" per se). A few had masturbation; I'm thinking specifically of Liz Carlyle's NO TRUE GENTLEMAN, although he didn't finish because he decided jerking off thinking of the heroine was "disrespectful."

I blogged about it some time ago, whether there's a feeling that male masturbation was specifically not often seen in romance novels because readers tend to see it as such (disrespectful), or even kind of pitiful; most romance heroes tend to be, if you'll pardon the expression, knee-deep in pussy, so for them to do it themselves instead of having an available woman, or simply having self-control*, might make them seem less manly/macho/tough. Some of the commenters wanted to see more of such scenes, but more than a couple didn't care for it.)

(*I'm not saying that masturbating means a man has little self-control, at all, just that male masturbation tends to be something of a punchline, if you know what I mean; a thing desperate men do because they have no choice, and kind of a ridiculous thing. "Dating his hand" seems to be basically slang for "can't get a woman," and I also think there's an idea that it's something only teenage boys do or that there's something immature or childish or gross about, say, a guy with a large porn collection. I see a lot more female masturbation in books than male, usually with a sort of "she'd never explored these feelings like this before" tone.)

Jamie Stone · Jan 17, 2014

Thank you guys for the input and recs. I am mostly wondering about the market and mainstream romance, traditional publishers - are there unspoken rules that a Regency romance for example wouldn't include oral sex because the readership is looking for "real" see? For that matter is there an expected heat level for different subgenres such as Christian romance will be mostly chaste, contemporary might be hot and detailed, Regency might be more fade to black, etc?

veinglory · Jan 17, 2014

I am sure proportions differ but there is plenty of erotic Regency around too. The trick creating a plausible plot for whatever activities you want to be happening. And the odds are your readership is erotic romance mopre than Regency per se, but with enough of the later that you better not get any of the historical stuff wrong.

girlyswot · Jan 17, 2014

It seems to me that it would be useful for you to read a bit more widely in the genre. Some publishers have their own guidelines, some imprints have theirs, but there is a LOT of variation across the market as a whole. You can write pretty much any heat level or sexual activity that you want, but what you write will affect where it's appropriate to submit it.

Marian Perera · Jan 17, 2014

Jamie Stone said:
are there unspoken rules that a Regency romance for example wouldn't include oral sex because the readership is looking for "real" see?

I don't know if Stephanie Laurens' books are considered Regency, but oh my.

Anal and hard BDSM may be the only limits in her books.

Oh, and another historical author whom I forgot was Robin Schone. She really pushed the envelope.

Deb Kinnard · Jan 17, 2014

I remember one of Laurie Brown's regencies had pretty much everything. Including one character demonstrating the use of protection through using a carrot as a "prop."

Be warned, though, I DNF that book because it was boring. Not because of historical accuracy or because of anything H & H did or didn't do.

V.J. Allison · Jan 17, 2014

I write contemporary romance stories, and to me it's up to the author on what they are comfortable using, whether it's historical, contemporary, fantasy, or any other sub-genre.

I don't include oral or anal acts because one of my best friends can't handle either. She gags over that kind of thing, so I keep it as "friend friendly" as I can. My stuff is somewhat "vanilla" compared to others' out there, and well, I don't go into the 50 Shades of Gray realm because I don't know anything about it and I don't want to get anything wrong.

I have briefly mentioned male masturbation in both of my two manuscripts, but didn't go into detail in either, because of the reasons Stacia mentioned. Plus I really got yelled at by a former beta reader for putting something descriptive of that nature into one of my older works that will never be published. I think it grossed her out. OOPS. :e2smack:

Kathl33n · Jan 17, 2014

It has been suggested to me, through one of my betas, to possibly write a scene with male masturbation in it, and I was told that Victoria Dahl has a book called "Close Enough to Touch," which has a male masturbation scene that my beta advised me "was hot."

She had also advised me that it would be hot to add that kind of tension in the story, him thinking that much of the female MC before he could actually be with her.

I chose not to use this piece of advice, though, because it didn't feel true to my characters and it wouldn't have advanced the plot (in my opinion).

Stacia Kane · Jan 17, 2014

girlyswot said:
It seems to me that it would be useful for you to read a bit more widely in the genre. Some publishers have their own guidelines, some imprints have theirs, but there is a LOT of variation across the market as a whole. You can write pretty much any heat level or sexual activity that you want, but what you write will affect where it's appropriate to submit it.

Agreed. I haven't read a ton of Regencies (I tend to prefer medievals when reading historical romance) but I honestly can't remember reading one and noticing a lack of oral sex, which I'm pretty sure I would have noticed. I could be wrong, of course, but oral (female receiving) has always seemed pretty de rigueur to me. I certainly haven't noticed that Regencies tend to be "fade to black," but that may be in part because if I know an author is a "fader," I don't read their books.

You don't have to look specifically for erotic romances to get sex scenes, regardless of subgenre (except Inspies, of course).

Try Julia Quinn; I always liked her books and I remember them having some pretty hot scenes in them. Candice Hern's ONCE A SCOUNDREL is a Regency with plenty of heat. Or go to a bookstore and grab a bunch of Regencies; I bet at least half of them will have explicit scenes.

People in the Regency period had oral sex; there's nothing "not real" about it. And plenty of "mainstream" romances have sex scenes. There's no "rule" that says since it's a Regency (or Georgian, or medieval, or whatever) it can't have explicit sex; there's no major publisher I'm aware of that won't allow explicit sex (again, save Inspie lines/houses).

How many Regencies have you read, which were published in the last, say, five years?

jennontheisland · Jan 17, 2014

Sin by Sharon page. Regency-ish era (I'm not going to say it's actually "Regency" for fear the Regency Police come citing the wrong kind of purse being used or something) and it's all about bdsm, orgies, and all the sex you can imagine in many and varied ways.

Jamie Stone · Jan 17, 2014

Stacia Kane said:
How many Regencies have you read, which were published in the last, say, five years?

Truthfully not many, because while a few have interested me and the time period itself is intriguing, I feel like most of the stories/writing styles in the genre are meant to be light and fluffy with low stakes. To me, a socially-acceptable marriage or redeeming a rake is not a high enough stake to finish a book. Most of the romances in general that I pick up feel too much like beach reading for me. It troubles me because I like story lines with a strong romance at their core, but I think my actual tastes don't lay where most romance readers' wants are.

For example, romance novels I've enjoyed are Juliet Marillier's Sevenwaters triology (where a strong romance was particularly the driving force in Son of the Shadows, and also quite a focus IMO in Daughter of the Forest, but I could see how some would say these are fantasy with strong romantic elements), Joanna Bourne's Spymasters books (I enjoy the amazing writing style, the characters' sense of humor and self-sufficiency and the high stakes and fiery relationships), and the current one I'm reading, Wild Encounters by Nikki Logan, wherein I'm enjoying the detail and immersion into the exotic locale of Africa and the writing style, but I'm not a huge fan of it being a contemporary. I enjoyed all of the Kushiel's Dart series, again possibly not properly classed as romance but certainly erotic and with a strong overarching romantic relationship. In a change of pace, I enjoyed Catherine Anderson's Comanche Moon and Lorraine Heath's Texas Destiny, both older, but both probably the most "traditional" romance novels on my list.

I just feel that I could find a good fit for the sorts of things I like to read, if I just knew where to look. I like a lot of the elements of a good romance novel, but for some reason it's difficult to find something that all gels together and hits all the right notes for "wow this is a great story". All of the aforementioned books are different heat levels as well, but I love having hot scenes in the stories I'm reading because sex is a physical expression of the emotional relationship I've gotten invested in, and quite frankly because sex scenes between two characters with fantastic, mind-blowing chemistry are really really erotic and enjoyable.

I haven't been able to write much for a while but I know the sorts of things I want to write, if I can only figure out how to put them all together, and I think they'd end up being considered romance novels or at the very least strong romantic elements, particularly at the heat level I have in mind, because it seems like other genres and gen-fic readers don't really expect sudden lovemaking scenes.

Sorry, this reply is quite a divergence from the original topic.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Feb 26, 2014

My HF novel isn't a romance per se, but it does have a strong romance subplot, in which sex is very much part of the story. I do make passing reference to male masturbation, and more than passing reference to fellatio, performed somewhat against the MC's will. I've not been scolded by my agent about it.

I think in some ways sex and erotica is more appropriate in historicals, depending on the period, because there wasn't the same social stigma and uptightness about it. Certain ancient cultures celebrated and accepted it as a healthy and normal part of life, almost as commonplace as you or I would find surfing the internet

ARoyce · Feb 28, 2014

Jamie:

I agree with other posters that it would be good for you to read more of the current hist rom out there. Since you mentioned Joanna Bourne (who I adore), here are other hist rom authors you might enjoy. They show more of the breadth of the field...they're not historical erotic romance, but they still show a variety of sex scenes beyond just penis-in-vagina (PIV) sex:

Sherry Thomas (She does have one hist erotic romance, too, that includes some BDSM and anal.)
Courtney Milan
Cecilia Grant
Elizabeth Hoyt
Meredith Duran

There are tons of others I would also recommend, but this is my short list.

Sunflowerrei · Feb 28, 2014

You should check out Jo Beverley's books. She writes Regency historical (her Rogue series) and Georgian (the Malloren books). She's also written some medieval-set books, but I remember one of the Malloren novels having a scene set in a Georgian-era brothel.

Madame de Plume · Mar 4, 2014

I've read a couple of Stephanie Lauren's romance novels, particularly the Bride Quartet, and there were a couple of oral scenes, much to the heroine's surprise.

oldhousejunkie · Mar 5, 2014

I'm in that no man's land between straight historical fiction and historical romance. I prefer romantic historical fiction, but as a genre, it hasn't been "certified" by the publishing industry. With that being said, I pay a lot of attention to historical detail (probably because my educational background is in history), and a lot of historical romance is just plain wrong. While not always the case, the upper class heroines that run out and sleep around before they are married are definitely in the historical minority. It happened sure, but the prevailing notion was that a woman should be chaste until marriage, it was part of the deal. Of course after the wedding and providing an heir (or two), it was open season, at least for aristocratic ladies. Now with lower class women it was completely different. Pre-marital sex with one's future partner was not frowned upon. I read a book about the Victorian age once and a great deal of women were already pregnant when they married.

With that being said, I'm sure we'll never really know what went on the bedrooms of history, but I think the more vanilla type of sex scenes are pretty accurate. Not fun, but accurate. There were a lot of women who didn't know a thing about sex or their own bodies (and how they worked) for that matter, even after they were married and their husbands wanted it that way. That's why they had mistresses; they wanted a saint in their bedroom at home, but they wanted to be pleasured by the free wheeling lady.

I know we are writing fiction, and so whatever floats the author's boat. But I for one like to stick to the facts or at least work within the small percentage of likelihood. I highly doubt that oral would be going on in the standard issue, arranged aristocratic marriage.

To the OP: if you want to write it hotter, there are plenty of small presses that have created lines to cater to this. If you want mainstream, I would pick out a few authors writing in the era you're writing in and see how far they are pushing the envelope.

wendymarlowe · Mar 12, 2014

OldHouseJunkie hit the nail on the head - well-bred women (at least in the Regency/Victorian period) were really sheltered when it came to sexuality, even just with their own bodies. I don't think the lack of more "extreme" sex is a function of the readers - a lot of it stems from it being implausible for a heroine who doesn't understand arousal and a hero who KNOWS she doesn't understand arousal to manage to jump into explicit situations within the scope of your average novel.

That said, I have read a lot of mid-level mainstream Regency books (Stephanie Laurens / Lisa Kleypas level) and the formula seems to involve ~2.5 sex scenes. The first one is aborted in some way - they get interrupted, they choose to stop before having PiV intercourse, etc. The second scene is usually at the emotional turning point for the relationship, where the hero and heroine truly admit they love each other (at least to themselves), and is almost always pretty vanilla. It may involve oral as part of the foreplay, but almost always ends with PiV intercourse. The third sex scene can be a little more unusual - light bondage, not on the bed, slightly kinky scenarios, whatever - but is about strengthening their connection. Any subsequent scenes are usually perfunctory or the "fade to black" type.

(This is all gross generalizations, obviously - every book is different, and some formulas such as the forced marriage trope will by necessity have things changed around.)

Anal is different, and I do think that's because of reader demand. Only between a sixth and a third of heterosexual women have tried anal sex (depending on what study you look at), and it does tend to be a concept which squicks people out if they haven't tried it (or at least fantasized about it) - or even if they have tried it but didn't like it. There are lots of alarmist statistics out there about how the percentages are on the rise - and that is reflected by the surge (sorry!) in erotica ebook sales. There isn't necessarily a huge overlap between those readers and readers of traditionally-published paper historical romances, though.

Sex Acts in Romance Novels (esp Hist.)

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