Multiple militia groups from across USA going to Las Vegas for standoff w/Bureau of Land Management
- Thread starter Plot Device
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The incoming ATF director after the disaster disagrees with you.
Eventual trial outcomes and the Danforth Report (not well-publicized, but described in sections following the link above) are also worth noting.
I haven't seen anyone defend Koresh in this thread. He was from what I can tell a truly evil man. That does not automatically make the government blameless.
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I see two arguments unfolding on the side of the Bundy constituents. I don't actually agree with either argument. But here goes.........
Bundy's argument says: "I've been here for 5 generations. I was here first. I am grandfathered. Leave me be." Yeah. He's that simple about it.
And Oath Keepers' argument is far more elaborate. They are (stupidly!) throwing their support behind Bundy because his predicament sort of dovetails with a pet political battle that a gentleman named Steve Pratt, founder of the County Sheriff's Project (a group heavily endorsed by Oath Keepers) has been championing for over a decade now. Specifically, there was some kind of a ruling back in 1780, called the "Resolution of 1780." It dealt with whether or not federal land out in the various territories could remain in the control of the federal government even after a given territory became a state. That Resolution declared that once statehood is granted, the federal government must relinquish all claim to the land, surrendering it into the control of the new state.
Skip ahead to 09:05 and start watching for just 2 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb7Or-f62jY
The argument being put forth in this YouTube video by Steve Pratt of the County Sheriff Project --and which is being endorsed by Oath Keepers-- is that those lands should not be in the hands of any federal agency. And that notion is about to be tested in Nevada with this whole fiasco involving Bundy's cattle.
Thanks, Plot Device!
At some point this story piqued my interest. This thread that you started is a big help in understanding it.
At some point this story piqued my interest. This thread that you started is a big help in understanding it.
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Okay, I am no expert, but the US Constitution dates to 1787, and was apparently come up with because the system immediately previous was such a fiasco.
I don't know if it voided everything that came before before, but it certainly would make a claim based on any law older than 1787 which hasn't been dealt with since look a little dodgy in my book.
So why would these persons think they have a case to hold the US to a ... law? court case? opinion piece? ... dating to 1780?
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I also think it's worth noting that in the 1993 case, it's reported that Bundy was limited to 150 animals. A far cry from the now 900 he claims are his, roaming federal land, and a number which I doubt the man's owned property could support even if he kept them there.
Sure is.
Problem is no Oath can retain meaning when adherents determine which is the greater part, or what the 'real' meaning of a piece of text is.
Language is tricky, we all know that.
But it aint that tricky,
so 'tisn't.
Hanson, I don't know what you are saying. Granted, I have an infection in my tooth/jaw and can't think very clearly at the moment, but could you perhaps rephrase?
I'm saying the Oathkeepers are being selective as to which parts of the Oath they deemed the most important.
For sure do nothing illegal, but to sidestep the President's orders, because the Constitution 'comes first', is the thin edge of an unworkable wedge.
Once you start pickin n choosing the bits you like from a sworn oath, and downgrading the rest, the oath becomes meaningless. It essentially becomes a 'fit for own use' shield against any criticism.
It's been done through time, in different situations, to justify, well, anything.
Ok, gotta go, back tomo, hopefully.
Well, if he actually cared about who had it first, then I'm sure he wants it to be directly handed over to the Native Americans.
I don't think the Articles of Confederation apply anymore.
Considering how...I...think the first three paragraphs of the constitution nix the AoC in favor of the Constitution.
Hanson, I had a history professor who said he thinks the most compelling question asked of us by all of human history is the question: "Are we Nazis?" He believes all people --individually and collectively-- must take it upon themselves to ask that question from time to time to make sure they are not blindly crossing moral and ethical lines which became blurry due to life's daily grind of never ending distractions and obligations and especially the demands made by emergency contingencies.
He perceives the practice of self-asking of this question as one of the most important checks/balances to keeping life and equilibrium in what we hope will remain a democratic society of free thought and tolerance.
Now that I've Godwinned my own thread ....
If the employment of one's own reasoning power in deciding when to disobey an order is unacceptable to you, then what is the correct circumstance/guideline for justifying the refusal of an order?
Another good question to ask: "Are we racists?"
Because...the thing that has been constantly bugging me about the Oathkeepers and organizations like them: They only got REALLY earnest and focused on protecting the constitution against the rapacious power of the oval office...the INSTANT a black guy was there.
Where the fuck were they and people like them when Bush was using the bill of rights like toilet paper?
Because...the thing that has been constantly bugging me about the Oathkeepers and organizations like them: They only got REALLY earnest and focused on protecting the constitution against the rapacious power of the oval office...the INSTANT a black guy was there.
Where the fuck were they and people like them when Bush was using the bill of rights like toilet paper?
1) I haven't made any such correlary, and yet I also haven't looked for it.
2) Can you correlate that via documentation?
3) Have any LEO's of color reported that Oath Keepers has unwelcoming toward them?
And their food source, the bison.
The whole reason for the vast 'ranches' is the same as the reason for foreign sweatshops. It's cheap. As someone has pointed out, he couldn't support all those cattle on his land. And, if he had to pay for fencing, and feed, etc. he'd have more work to do, less profit to make. But, letting the cattle wander at will, feed as they please, that makes economic sense. And without that free land, Bundy and his buddies would have to give up a lifestyle based on taking land from it's previous inhabitants, wiping out the buffalo, getting permission to kill every predator they can get hold of, and driving feral horses and donkeys to the slaughterhouse because they were eating the grass apparently reserved for cattle.
Oh, side issue: the price of beef would go up, for everybody.
Well, it's only a suspicion...and it's one that I've had about these "constitution first" groups that popped up after Obama got elected - and I checked: The Oathkeepers showed mere months after the election...not before.
Maybe I'm seeing racism that isn't there, but it just strikes me as suspicious. And it's why I'm leery of a lot of groups like the Oathkeepers: The timing is just a little convenient for my tastes.
(The ones that existed before Obama's election, I'm less suspicious of. I just think they're...misguided.)
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THIS JUST IN ....
The Nevada Militia is getting reports of rogue militias coming into Nevada for this gathering. And by "rogue militias" they mean militias which are deliberately remaining vague about who they are, where they hail from, and failing to self-identify with any specific US state. (In the world of militias, that's really bad form and grounds for ostracization.)
These rogue militias are self-identifying as "Operation Mutual Aid," but their presence is causing concern among the leaders of the Nevada Militia. The Nevada Militia wants to honor the request of the Bundy constituents to keep this entire demonstration in the realm of "civil disobedience" with an emphasis on "civil." However, these rogue militias are suspected of wanting to make a show of things (read: open fire with live rounds). And so not only are the fears of bloodshed escalating, additional fears are being raised that when the smoke clears after what might turn into another Waco/Ruby Ridge, the Nevada Militia might be falsely blamed for it.
I got this from another message forum where a member posted this statement the leaders of the Nevada Militia:
The Nevada Militia is getting reports of rogue militias coming into Nevada for this gathering. And by "rogue militias" they mean militias which are deliberately remaining vague about who they are, where they hail from, and failing to self-identify with any specific US state. (In the world of militias, that's really bad form and grounds for ostracization.)
These rogue militias are self-identifying as "Operation Mutual Aid," but their presence is causing concern among the leaders of the Nevada Militia. The Nevada Militia wants to honor the request of the Bundy constituents to keep this entire demonstration in the realm of "civil disobedience" with an emphasis on "civil." However, these rogue militias are suspected of wanting to make a show of things (read: open fire with live rounds). And so not only are the fears of bloodshed escalating, additional fears are being raised that when the smoke clears after what might turn into another Waco/Ruby Ridge, the Nevada Militia might be falsely blamed for it.
I got this from another message forum where a member posted this statement the leaders of the Nevada Militia:
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TWO ADDITIONAL REPORTS via e-mail:
1) Supposedly over 5,000 militia members are heading to Nevada from over 30 different US states. The rally is slated for tomorrow. So they are all driving through the night to get there for tomorrow.
2) Supposedly, the major roads into the vicinity of the Bundy ranch have roadblocks, vehicles are being stopped and all guns --the overwhelming majority of which are perfectly legal and fully permitted-- are being (illegally) confiscated.
1) Supposedly over 5,000 militia members are heading to Nevada from over 30 different US states. The rally is slated for tomorrow. So they are all driving through the night to get there for tomorrow.
2) Supposedly, the major roads into the vicinity of the Bundy ranch have roadblocks, vehicles are being stopped and all guns --the overwhelming majority of which are perfectly legal and fully permitted-- are being (illegally) confiscated.
Those facts have got to be getting out to most of the people driving to the area (through text mesages/Facebook/Twitter, maybe even old-fashioned CB radio). Don't know what they might do about it, maybe start collecting in places BEFORE they get to the roadblocks, or taking time to hide guns behind every vehicle panel they can think of and going on through.
Regardless, this doesn't sound pretty.
NEW REPORT:
FAA issued a no-fly-zone over Mesquite, Nevadaless than 3 hours ago CORRECTION: 5:38 PM Eastern Time.
Mesquite is less than 5 miles from Bunkerville, Nevada where the Bundy Ranch is located.
No other aircraft other than BLM craft and/or BLM-authorized craft are allowed in the area.
http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_1687.html
::ETA::
A chopper pilot just informed me that the no-fly zone does not extend over the air space of the Bundy Ranch itself. Just the local air field where BLM is being given elbow room to set up a staging area.
I am awaiting word from that chopper pilot if he believes this still allows news choppers into the area.
FAA issued a no-fly-zone over Mesquite, Nevada
Mesquite is less than 5 miles from Bunkerville, Nevada where the Bundy Ranch is located.
No other aircraft other than BLM craft and/or BLM-authorized craft are allowed in the area.
http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_1687.html
::ETA::
A chopper pilot just informed me that the no-fly zone does not extend over the air space of the Bundy Ranch itself. Just the local air field where BLM is being given elbow room to set up a staging area.
I am awaiting word from that chopper pilot if he believes this still allows news choppers into the area.
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UNCONFIRMED REPORTS:
For over two hours now I have continually heard reports that all cellular phone service in the area of Mesquite, Nevada and Bunkerville, Nevada have been lost.
This is giving rise to conspiracy theories that the government has deliberately cut the towers to thwart tweeting and texting and the uploading of video into the cloud.
I have avoided posting any of that here so far because I can't confirm any of it. But now there is a desperate plea being sent out asking for any willing HAM radio operators to please bring their HAM sets to the area to allow radio communication.
::ETA::
I found a web site called Down Detector dot com.
http://downdetector.com/status/us-cellular
They claim to be real-time in reporting cellular outages across the USA.
There have been no reports at this web site for any region of Nevada in the past 24 hours.
For over two hours now I have continually heard reports that all cellular phone service in the area of Mesquite, Nevada and Bunkerville, Nevada have been lost.
This is giving rise to conspiracy theories that the government has deliberately cut the towers to thwart tweeting and texting and the uploading of video into the cloud.
I have avoided posting any of that here so far because I can't confirm any of it. But now there is a desperate plea being sent out asking for any willing HAM radio operators to please bring their HAM sets to the area to allow radio communication.
::ETA::
I found a web site called Down Detector dot com.
http://downdetector.com/status/us-cellular
They claim to be real-time in reporting cellular outages across the USA.
There have been no reports at this web site for any region of Nevada in the past 24 hours.
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This would be a place where satellite telephones would be a good thing to have, even though both the phone itself and the per-minute service are quite expensive, compared to modern cell service, but they work from most anywhere on Earth. Here's mention in a recent news story:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/lyra-kaufman-sick-toddler-rescued-from-rebel-heart-back-in-san-diego/
It's also possible that signals are being transmitted that interfere with/disable cellphones. That would be highly illegal, and even dangerous, as disabling communications could prevent help for medical emergencies such as heart attacks (or gunshot wounds), but then, when the government does it... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejvyDn1TPr8
Looking at a couple of twitter hashtags, #nevada has about one post per minute:
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23nevada&src=typd&f=realtime
but the posts lead to other hashtags, especially #bundyranch which has about one tweet per second, and I'm seeing the stuff Plot Device mentioned about cell towers being shut down and a no-fly zone:
https://twitter.com/search?q=#BundyRanch&src=hash&f=realtime
One of the tweets linked to this live ustream feed:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/thepe...&utm_medium=social&utm_content=20140411224632
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/lyra-kaufman-sick-toddler-rescued-from-rebel-heart-back-in-san-diego/
It's also possible that signals are being transmitted that interfere with/disable cellphones. That would be highly illegal, and even dangerous, as disabling communications could prevent help for medical emergencies such as heart attacks (or gunshot wounds), but then, when the government does it... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejvyDn1TPr8
Looking at a couple of twitter hashtags, #nevada has about one post per minute:
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23nevada&src=typd&f=realtime
but the posts lead to other hashtags, especially #bundyranch which has about one tweet per second, and I'm seeing the stuff Plot Device mentioned about cell towers being shut down and a no-fly zone:
https://twitter.com/search?q=#BundyRanch&src=hash&f=realtime
One of the tweets linked to this live ustream feed:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/thepe...&utm_medium=social&utm_content=20140411224632