Shooting at Jewish communty center & Jewish skilled nursing facility in Kansas -- three people dead

Lillith1991 said:

Yea, a deadly case of mistaken idenity, that's what this was for two of the three victims. Which deffinitly makes me think hate crime, because he reportedly may not of shot them if he'd known they weren't Jewish. Now, he may of anyway for "betraying their people," but he did it without the knowledge that two of his victims were Christian.

Click to expand...

Actually, all three victims turned out to be Christian.

Understand that I don't think the religion of the victims changes the killer's intent or the heinousness of his crime.

Devil Ledbetter said:

Actually, all three victims turned out to be Christian.

Understand that I don't think the religion of the victims changes the killer's intent or the heinousness of his crime.

Click to expand...

Really? All three? They can probably prove he intended that those shot would be Jewish, but seems they won't be able to charge him with a hate crime.

Don said:

After every terrorism attack, we're properly reminded that it's a fallacy to judge all Muslims based on the actions of a few individuals, and doing so is nothing but naked bigotry.

How about we extend the same consideration to the 100 million gun owners in America?

Click to expand...

This is such a head fake. Nobody here is bigoted against 100 million gun owners, so don't even play that victim card.

Glenn Miller is a relic of an bygone era, but he's one of those racist assholes that refuse to go quietly into that good night.

And he's never been shy about flaunting his anti-Semitism and racism.

Lillith1991 said:

Really? All three? They can probably prove he intended that those shot would be Jewish, but seems they won't be able to charge him with a hate crime.

Click to expand...

I'm not so sure. The concept of transferred intent might well apply - just because he meant to shoot A but shot B instead, he's guilty of murder. Not sure if it would extend to the enhancement that a 'hate crime' basically is but it seems like it should.

The fact that he killed three Christians only proves what an idiot he is. Blind hatred and ignorance led him to kill people, and he had no clue whether they were Jewish or not. He'll justify the murders in such a way as not to come to the conclusion that he actually killed three of his "own kind." What a fool. Reminds me of the people who attack Sikhs and Hindus when they think they're going after Muslims. There is no place in this world for such foolishness.

Much greater utility just charging him with those three murders, despite the greater lesson that it might be to charge him with a hate crime.

patskywriter said:

The fact that he killed three Christians only proves what an idiot he is. Blind hatred and ignorance led him to kill people, and he had no clue whether they were Jewish or not. He'll justify the murders in such a way as not to come to the conclusion that he actually killed three of his "own kind." What a fool. Reminds me of the people who attack Sikhs and Hindus when they think they're going after Muslims. There is no place in this world for such foolishness.

Click to expand...

I get what you're saying but really it would have been "three of his own kind" only if he'd shot three white supremacists to death. Presumably the three dead Christians he apparently mistook for Jews were not skinhead, Hitler lovin' Klansmen.

MarkEsq said:

I'm not so sure. The concept of transferred intent might well apply - just because he meant to shoot A but shot B instead, he's guilty of murder. Not sure if it would extend to the enhancement that a 'hate crime' basically is but it seems like it should.

Click to expand...

Seems like it should to me to. I know I don't have to tell you what you already know. Hopefully they try the murders as a hate crime. It had the spirit of one that's for damn sure.

Devil Ledbetter said:

I get what you're saying but really it would have been "three of his own kind" only if he'd shot three white supremacists to death. Presumably the three dead Christians he apparently mistook for Jews were not skinhead, Hitler lovin' Klansmen.

Click to expand...

When I said three of his own kind, I did mean Christian, although I do understand your point. His, yours, and my definitions of Christian might vary, but I simply meant people who share the same faith, generally speaking. Of course, he might not consider himself a Christian at all—that's also possible.

KC local here. Local news confirms that there will be a dual local/federal investigation, and they ARE pursuing hate crime charges.

Random thought: It must be so miserable to be a racist (like glen miller). I mean, every day, going around and hating people for such ridiculous reasons... Why would someone choose to live like that? I know, we're not talking about rational people, but still... It just leaves me baffled.

Brightdreamer said:

Not all hate crimes are premeditated, but a shooting like this, if commited by a sane man, would almost have to be. He had a gun. He went to a specific location where the objects of his hatred gathered, near the time of a holiday "they" celebrated and were therefore likely to congregate. Generally speaking, shootings where a site and multiple victims are targeted seem to be premeditated, a somewhat different animal then the spontaneous, opportunistic beating (which requires no forethought and no more equipment then one's fists.)

I was suggesting that it was possible that the man was insane, or medically compromised, and not simply acting because of racial or ethnic hatred. Which would make the motivation his illness, not his sincere views. (Though not common, the 70s aren't too young for dementia or other conditions that can radically alter brain functions. Is it still a hate crime if the brain that conceived it was organically malfunctioning?)

Click to expand...

I'd put his actions in the category of rational rather than sane. It's quite possible for people completely unhinged from reality to be quite rational in the decisions they make. It's simply that the starting point from which they gather the data to make the decision is not one where other people would start from.

Not even successful by his own loathsome standards, one of the victims being a young Christian boy

veinglory said:

Not even successful by his own loathsome standards, one of the victims being a young Christian boy

Click to expand...

The victims were a Christian boy, his Christian grandfather and a Catholic woman.

And now I know who has me on ignore.

Thanks melindamusil! Its great to know that!

It is a hate crime and will be prosecuted as one. The guy's name is Cross--Frasier Glenn Cross Miller--he often scrambles the names it seems.He was once a dragon of the KKK and his hate spewing eventually got him kicked out of the army.

He was in prison some years ago for plotting to murder one of the founders of the Southern Law Poverty Center. He only got three years because he turned evidence on other haters so they let him plead out. I remembered him from a ten year old interview in which he stated that white Christians were the new minority. You would be surprised to learn how many people spout that one.

It looks like he came from Missouri to kill Jews in Kansas but managed to kill only Christians. The grandfather/grandson pair were at the Jewish center for a singing competition. The other victim was a lady visiting her blind mother in a Senior Care Center with a Jewish name. Strange that he hates Jews so much but cannot differentiate between them and Christians.

Kansas has some pretty loose gun laws as does Missouri, but from local news it seems that he obtained the guns through a straw buyer. So far, the opinion is that he bought the guns illegally. The purchases are being investigated. I have to agree with Gov. Sam Brownback's remarks on the shootings, and that is something that has never happened before. Brownback seemed really, sincerely shaken. This kind of hate frightens us all, liberals and conservatives alike.

I can see that groping for a reason, a motive, an excuse, an error on someone's part are all logical and necessary but the hate and filth this guy has been spewing for most of his life is well documented.

The frightening thing is how many more of these hating, ranters are out there. It looks to me like his years of hating dissolved his soul into a black stain. Had the authorities known what he was capable of... but they couldn't know. Not logically. Just like the Wichita police could not know that Dennis Rader was more than a religious fanatic dog catcher. Before they commit a violent crime, we cannot tell the haters who are harmless from the dangerous ones, any more than this bitter, despicable asshole could tell Jews from Christians when he had them in his cross hairs.

Scary world we live in--and while most young people can outgrow their prejudices, there is a whole nation of haters in their golden years who constantly blame someone else for the way this nation has turned out.

Now i am old, too. I'll be 64 this June and things have not always turned out the way I thought they would but I have to say things in this nation are a lot better than they were in the fifties or sixties or seventies. At least for us minorities--s6

shakeysix said:

It looks to me like his years of hating dissolved his soul into a black hole.

Click to expand...

This raises the question that this sort of thing always raises for me - note, I'm not American, so I'm just asking. You know the Westboro Baptist mob? How were they allowed to keep and raise children in such an atmosphere of hate and harm? Or am I just assuming they were because the kids were at the demos?

ETA: Sorry if that's a derail. I prolly should have made a new thread. Let me know, mod.

Here is an article that discusses the history of this hater. (If anyone wants to see what kind of miserable life he's led.)

“He’s a longtime white nationalist who has spent decades promoting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories and has had various run-ins with the law,” said Devin Burghart of the Institute for Research and Education on Human Rights.

“He’s been so embroiled in this stuff for so long, you have to wonder what finally led him to carry out the act that he’d been preaching about all this time?”

I'm curious about this too. The suggestion that he's been diagnosed with some deadly condition is something that I can't argue with.

mccardey said:

This raises the question that this sort of thing always raises for me - note, I'm not American, so I'm just asking. You know the Westboro Baptist mob? How were they allowed to keep and raise children in such an atmosphere of hate and harm? Or am I just assuming they were because the kids were at the demos?

ETA: Sorry if that's a derail. I prolly should have made a new thread. Let me know, mod.

Click to expand...

I think you've stumbled on the catch-22 of freedom. America has always prided itself on freedom, in particular freedom of speech. I have the freedom to have whatever opinions I want, and to say whatever I want, within a few generous laws (such as libel and slander), and assuming that my beliefs do not infringe on the life and freedom of anyone else. The government can't take my kids away just because they do not agree with what I believe.

Not to mention - the foster care system is stretched to the brink as is.

I wish I had lived before the invention of firearms. It was a kinder, gentler world where nobody ever murdered anybody, and massacres were non-existent....oh wait.

Murderers are murderers. If this man had stabbed the victims, nobody would blame the knife. If he had run them over, nobody would blame the car. Ultimately, if someone wants to do something horrible, they will find a way and blaming the weapon is as logically flawed as blaming the victim. I suppose it provides a similar sense of control over the random nastiness in the world.

I don't blame the gun for this incident. I don't blame access to guns. I blame the creepy old psycho who thought that killing Jews was a fun way to spend his afternoon.

Tazlima said:

I wish I had lived before the invention of firearms. It was a kinder, gentler world where nobody ever murdered anybody, and massacres were non-existent....oh wait.

Murderers are murderers. If this man had stabbed the victims, nobody would blame the knife. If he had run them over, nobody would blame the car. Ultimately, if someone wants to do something horrible, they will find a way and blaming the weapon is as logically flawed as blaming the victim. I suppose it provides a similar sense of control over the random nastiness in the world.

I don't blame the gun for this incident. I don't blame access to guns. I blame the creepy old psycho who thought that killing Jews was a fun way to spend his afternoon.

Click to expand...

The thing that makes guns an issue here is that if he was forced to use, say, a knife, or a hammer, he probably would have been stopped after the first victim. Or he may not have actually managed to kill anyone. (He is 73 after all. How many good swings with a hammer could he actually manage?)

Let's not make that the issue here, though. The issue here is a sociopath who decided after years of just spewing hate to make a physical example of his sick little opinions.

Yeah--but you have to wonder what kind of money hungry fool obtained the guns for him. With his history and reputation I'd be willing to bet there will be prosecution for the straw buyer, too. --s6

shakeysix said:

Yeah--but you have to wonder what kind of money hungry fool obtained the guns for him. With his history and reputation I'd be willing to bet there will be prosecution for the straw buyer, too. --s6

Click to expand...

Well, with a military background and high-level membership in the KKK, I doubt finding the guns was really that difficult for him.

Glenn Miller has been charged by the state of Kansas with 2 counts:
-First count, capital murder, for the deaths of Dr. William Corporan and his grandson Reat Underwood. This charge has the punishment of either LWOP or the death penalty. The prosecutor said he has not yet decided if he will pursue the death penalty.
-Second count, premeditated first degree murder, for the death of Terri Lamanno. This charge carries a punishment of life with a possibility of parole after 25 years.

According to the way the law is written in Kansas, the prosecutor has to file charges within 48 hours. However, they can still go back and add to these charges - meaning, it is still possible that additional charges will be filed, including possible federal hate crime charges. (The implication in the press conference was that this was likely, and they are still building that case.)

Either way, it seems certain that this guy will never see the outside of a prison again.

I read today that his son died in a shootout with police after attacking a motorist who stopped to help him. Maybe McCardy's question about removing children from a certified haters household might make sense after all. I am also thinking of the Jeff Hall and Joseph Hall case--s6

One of the local news stations dug out an interview with Glenn Miller from 2006, when he was a candidate for a state representative position, running on a white power platform. The reporter who interviewed him, Dan Weinbaum, is Jewish - which, honestly, was news to me. I've seen this particular reporter many times, and he seemed quite capable, but it's never occurred to me that he might be Jewish.

(Weinbaum is no longer working in news, but still lives in the KC area and works for a nonprofit.)

Anyway, the absolute venom and hatred and bitterness that he spews in this interview is just astonishing. This man looked at this reporter and said, IIRC, you're a Jew, and I hate you. Just... baffling.