Don't dress like a prostitute and you won't get raped

shaldna

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So angry right now that I can barely speak.

Liz Jones has gone beyond the breaking point. Either the woman is seriously fucking insane and need psychiatric help, or she's an attention whore who will say anything to get her name out there. Either way, today's 'article' (and I use that in the loosest sense of the word) is a shameful attack on victims of sexual assault. Yes, the victims.

Liz Jones is a 'journalist' for the Daily Mail, which should tell you just about everything you need to know.

In the past she has attacked anyone who is not like her - women are her main target, especially mothers, but the rich, the poor, the sick, students, children all regularly come under fire and are subject to her vitriolic rants. The fact that a national newspaper actually publishes this dross makes me sick to my stomach. Veronica Guerin she is not.

The offensive article in question can be found here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...runken-letches-Sober-women-sober-clothes.html

In it you will find some desperately worrying statements, including men grabbing women as just being 'cuddly' and how if you don't want to be manhandled and assaulted then you 'shouldn't hang out in a bar.'

Additionally, Liz Jones then goes on to attack how women dress, insinuating that they are somehow responsible for any assault that happens to them. This is so incredibly ill informed that I really don't know where to start. It's victim blaming, pure and simple. How a woman dresses IS NOT an invitation, and for the record, it's not only scantily clad young girls who get assaulted - women (and men) of all ages and appearances get assaulted including the elderly, nuns and children. Where they all inviting that assault by how they dressed?

Jones goes on to tell us
If a man puts his hand on you, or flirts, or is lascivious, you tell him to bugger off, and report it at the time, but only if you really, really believe him to be dangerous.

These women who feel so affronted need to put whatever happened, or they think happened, behind them, and get on with their lives.
So, basically you should just forget about being raped or assaulted and grow up. What's that saying to victims? That those assaults meant nothing, they are insignificant and could impact that man's life now? Well what about the victim's life? What about someone who has been carrying the knowledge and pain of that assault around with them for years? The passage of time should not, EVER, be used as an excuse for not punishing those crimes.

And assault is assault. Whether that's rape or violence, or just someone grabbing your ass in the pub. If it's unwanted and uninvited sexual contact then it's assault.
But apparently

Ghastly things happen to all of us. Digging up events that happened decades ago is not useful.

Well.......

Jones then goes on to advise women not to dress 'like prostitutes' which is the most unhelpful piece of advice I have ever heard and is blaming the victim. Disgraceful.

Now, in the 'article' she also mentions the impact that false allegations have on people, but her point is entirely lost in her ill-informed, ill-advised, misogynistic rant against victims.

Both Jones and the Daily Mail have gone too far this time. I have complained to both the DM and to the Press Complaints Commission. Enough is enough.
 

regdog

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She can garb herself in a burka and then find out she will still be raped. Ask the thousands of women in Afghanistan who have been victimized.

Stupid bitch.
 

Lillith1991

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She can garb herself in a burka and then find out she will still be raped. Ask the thousands of women in Afghanistan who have been victimized.

Stupid bitch.

This! Or the plenty of woman who dress "respectably" and are still raped. Or women targetted by men in western society for being a Hasidic Jew, or a Muslim. I see things like this and become sad about the fact this idiots parents bred. I don't even believe in eugenics!
 

robjvargas

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Shaldna, I hope you understand that I'm not criticizing you.

You read her. You go to the Daily Mail's page, you click her link, you come here and provide the link to others. All of you get upset and rant and rave and she deserves all of it.

And you've given her exactly what she and the Daily Mail want. Clicks. Page views.

I no longer believe these kinds of "commentators" believe what they post. They just know what gets the public's motor running.

They've all learned from Jerry Springer.
 

Teinz

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Shaldna, I hope you understand that I'm not criticizing you.

You read her. You go to the Daily Mail's page, you click her link, you come here and provide the link to others. All of you get upset and rant and rave and she deserves all of it.

And you've given her exactly what she and the Daily Mail want. Clicks. Page views.

I no longer believe these kinds of "commentators" believe what they post. They just know what gets the public's motor running.

They've all learned from Jerry Springer.

I think you're right on this.

What do you propose, though? Should we just ignore the lowest of the low, or once in a while speak out against the garbage these kinds of scumbags spout? I'm torn. I know ingnoring is effective, but my sense of justice demands action sometimes.
 

robjvargas

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What do you propose, though? Should we just ignore the lowest of the low, or once in a while speak out against the garbage these kinds of scumbags spout? I'm torn. I know ingnoring is effective, but my sense of justice demands action sometimes.

I wish I knew the answer. Who was it said, "I oppose your viewpoint with every fiber of my being, and defend to the death your right to say it." Probably heavily paraphrased.

There's no crime in profiting from controversy, and I'm not interested in making a crime of it.

I disagree that ignoring is effective. Ignoring it gets children arrested for wiretapping when they record their bullies in action.

We need to let everyone who'll listen that the attitudes expressed here aren't okay. We need to do all we can to ensure no woman who has been through this hears only that the objectification of her is normal, and to be expected.

Maybe there isn't an answer. Maybe it's two sides in a war that won't end. Maybe there's an end, and it's in some other direction.

I don't know.
 

Plot Device

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Hey, I mean, legendary film critic Rex Reed got in fired for landed in hot water over the shit he doled out against Melissa McCarthy last year. Which goes to show that every dog has his day. So this woman from the Daily Fail might very well have slung her own noose this time.


(Not fired ... just deeply despised.)
 
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Helix

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They've all learned from Jerry Springer.


Springer's both a Johnny-come-lately and an amateur compared to the UK newspapers.

I'd imagine the PCC will treat this in the same way it treated Jan Moir's comments about Stephen Gately, i.e. as tasteless but not in breach of the code of practice. The DM, Dacre and columnists like Jones make me nauseous.
 

shaldna

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Shaldna, I hope you understand that I'm not criticizing you.

You read her. You go to the Daily Mail's page, you click her link, you come here and provide the link to others. All of you get upset and rant and rave and she deserves all of it.

And you've given her exactly what she and the Daily Mail want. Clicks. Page views.

Ranting and raving? Seriously, you're going to say that?

So what do you propose? Ignoring it? Saying nothing? Allowing people like this to tell attackers that it's okay because the victim is to blame because they were wearing a short skirt.

What really disturbed me were how many people in the comments below the article that were AGREEING with her. That is seriously fucking scary and that newpaper is giving a voice to those sort of people, standing behind them and saying it's okay.

If someone doesn't speak out then how will it stop? How will people know it's NOT okay?

I hardly think that's 'ranting and raving.'

I no longer believe these kinds of "commentators" believe what they post. They just know what gets the public's motor running.

They've all learned from Jerry Springer.

It should never have been said in the first place. She should not have written it and the paper should not have printed. It's not just Jones, there are a lot of people at fault here. And while I appreciate that it's a business and they are looking to attract readers by any means possible, that doesn't make this sort of shit okay.
 
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kuwisdelu

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I wish I knew the answer. Who was it said, "I oppose your viewpoint with every fiber of my being, and defend to the death your right to say it." Probably heavily paraphrased.

Condemnation simply isn't the same as censorship.

And stuff like this deserves to be condemned.

It has to be if we ever hope to change the mindset of rape culture.

No one suggesting criminalizing anything.
 

Cyia

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Lets just go back to lock-and-key chastity belts. How about that? Is that rape-proof enough?

(please tell me that doesn't require the sarcasm smiley)
 

ShaunHorton

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It might just be click-bait and something the author doesn't actually believe, however, it should be noted that articles like that are entirely detrimental to society.

If you don't believe that, go read the comments section. It's not just about expressing an opinion, it's giving voice to others that share that opinion. It's telling them their opinion is ok, and they're not alone. In that, it almost actively encourages people to go out and express their opinion, which in this case, is akin to telling men, hey, feel free to ignore her voice if it says no as long as the clothes still say yes.

That article may be her opinion, and she may have the right to say it; but it's my opinion that she's actively encouraging rape by saying it's all the victim's fault.
 

Relayer

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My first non-fiction book was on this subject. Although I was never a victim, anger propelled me to write in defense of women. But it consumed me. I realized I cannot change the minds of others. I can only turn my anger into action. Words were my weapon.

edit: I should clarify that I used words to educate people who wanted to learn, instead of trying to reach those who would never.

People want to feel that if they do or say something they will not be a victim of rape, hence given themselves a sense of safety in an unsafe world.
 
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Roxxsmom

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What really disturbed me were how many people in the comments below the article that were AGREEING with her. That is seriously fucking scary and that newpaper is giving a voice to those sort of people, standing behind them and saying it's okay.
.

This is what's especially scary, and it's true over here too, whether it's Rush Limbaugh or Fox news saying something incredibly sexist and hostile towards women, or some yahoo writing a letter to the local paper, or even some dork responding negatively to a news article that takes a more enlightened stance on something related to gender roles or sexual assault.

There are always a ton of people who will chime in and agree with sexist jerks. Do the columnists (and commenters) in question actually believe what they're saying, or are they just trolling? Do people start to believe this crap if they see enough of it? I don't know the answer either, but I'm getting heartily sick of it.
 

shaldna

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People want to feel that if they do or say something they will not be a victim of rape, hence given themselves a sense of safety in an unsafe world.

No. People want to educate both victims, potential victims and perpetrators on what is and is not acceptable. People want to stand up for others. People want to stop it happening anyone. It's not about personal safety, it's about societies attitudes to things like this, it's about redrawing the blurred lines, it's about making it very clear what is and is not sexual assault. It's about taking the blame away from the victim and putting it where it firmly belongs, and it's about making sure that everyone else knows the difference.
 

StormChord

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Wait, does this mean she thinks it's okay if prostitutes get raped?

Who am I kidding, of course she does. :rant:
 

Relayer

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No. People want to educate both victims, potential victims and perpetrators on what is and is not acceptable. People want to stand up for others. People want to stop it happening anyone. It's not about personal safety, it's about societies attitudes to things like this, it's about redrawing the blurred lines, it's about making it very clear what is and is not sexual assault. It's about taking the blame away from the victim and putting it where it firmly belongs, and it's about making sure that everyone else knows the difference.

I hear you, believe me. I'm just saying, I have been doing this for years and I have to know who will listen and who won't and work with those who will and let go of the ones I will never reach so I can expend my energy where it will do the most good instead of burning it up on those who will only inflame me with the feared result of burn out which will do no one any good.

btw - I teach all of them all of what you said. But I don't expect to teach anything to anyone who does not want to learn - is all I am saying.
Choose your battles wisely so as not to deplete your resources to win the war.
 
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mccardey

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Shaldna, I hope you understand that I'm not criticizing you.

You read her. You go to the Daily Mail's page, you click her link, you come here and provide the link to others. All of you get upset and rant and rave and she deserves all of it. And you've given her exactly what she and the Daily Mail want. Clicks. Page views.

Is that you, Rob? Except for the fact that she's also taken action, how is this different to all the threads you make?

I'm with Shaun Horton on this:
articles like that are entirely detrimental to society.

because they give a kind of amplifier effect to the voices of ignorance. But that doesn't mean, of course, that the issues themselves can't be discussed. They should be discussed.

ETA:
I have complained to both the DM and to the Press Complaints Commission. Enough is enough.

Good on you, Shaldna.
 
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Helix

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I hear you, believe me. I'm just saying, I have been doing this for years and I have to know who will listen and who won't and work with those who will and let go of the ones I will never reach so I can expend my energy where it will do the most good instead of burning it up on those who will only inflame me with the feared result of burn out which will do no one any good.

btw - I teach all of them all of what you said. But I don't expect to teach anything to anyone who does not want to learn - is all I am saying.
Choose your battles wisely so as not to deplete your resources to win the war.


Well, good for you, Relayer. You keep doing whatever it is you're doing. But don't dictate to others what they should be doing.

At the moment, 'choose your battles wisely' looks like a classic silencing tactic.
 

Synonym

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No offense meant, but is Liz Jones a real person?

I'm picturing some low level reporter assigned the job of picking up the most offensive BS written in a fifty year old editorial, dusting it off, updating it a bit, and publishing it for the shock factor.
 

Celia Cyanide

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No. People want to educate both victims, potential victims and perpetrators on what is and is not acceptable. People want to stand up for others. People want to stop it happening anyone.

I'm curious why you responded with, "no," here. Some people want what you described. Other people want to believe that there is a set of rules to adhere to which will keep bad things from happening to them. It's false, but that doesn't mean some people don't want to believe it.
 

nighttimer

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It might just be click-bait and something the author doesn't actually believe, however, it should be noted that articles like that are entirely detrimental to society.

Back in the day before it was "click-bait" this sort of shoddy, sleazy, writing was simply called "yellow journalism."

Sensationalism sells and slut-shaming sensationalism sells very well.

New technology. Same old shit. :e2shrug: