Don't dress like a prostitute and you won't get raped

Torgo · Apr 19, 2014

I wish I could find the article I read recently that digs into the economics of advertising on sites like the Daily Mail online. The conclusion was that perhaps click bait is hurting the Daily Mail, and not inflating its profits in the way that we might naïvely assume. But to be honest I can't remember the argument so...

Ah, found it: http://popbitch.com/articles/Profits_Of_Doom.html

shaldna · Apr 19, 2014

Celia Cyanide said:
I'm curious why you responded with, "no," here. Some people want what you described. Other people want to believe that there is a set of rules to adhere to which will keep bad things from happening to them. It's false, but that doesn't mean some people don't want to believsevee it.

I responded with a 'no' because knowing doesn't automatically protect. Knowing what it and isn't sexual assault won't stop you being raped or assaulted. I was specifically referring to comments made about people who speak out against these things and the comment that was made about presenting an idea of 'safety.' That's not why people speak out against these things. People don't speak out to make themselves feel 'safe' - they speak out to let people know it's WRONG and to try and stop it happening.

Marian Perera · Apr 19, 2014

Cyia said:
Lets just go back to lock-and-key chastity belts. How about that? Is that rape-proof enough?

I once found a fundamentalist website which said the safest places for women were their father's house or their husband's house. It was only when they went out (to bars, to college, to a workplace, etc) that they got raped.

shaldna · Apr 19, 2014

Queen of Swords said:
I once found a fundamentalist website which said the safest places for women were their father's house or their husband's house. It was only when they went out (to bars, to college, to a workplace, etc) that they got raped.

Jeez. Because no one has ever been raped by their father or husband.

Roxxsmom · Apr 19, 2014

Queen of Swords said:
I once found a fundamentalist website which said the safest places for women were their father's house or their husband's house. It was only when they went out (to bars, to college, to a workplace, etc) that they got raped.

shaldna said:
Jeez. Because no one has ever been raped by their father or husband.

Well, only in godless, atheist households. Of course, good Christian menfolks would never do such a thing.

:sarcasm

:

shaldna · Apr 19, 2014

Roxxsmom said:
Well, only in godless, atheist households. Of course, good Christian menfolks would never do such a thing.

:

Well, obviously.

Relayer · Apr 19, 2014

Helix said:
Well, good for you, Relayer. You keep doing whatever it is you're doing. But don't dictate to others what they should be doing.

At the moment, 'choose your battles wisely' looks like a classic silencing tactic.

I appreciate everyone's ire, I do. And I'm sorry if you felt I was dictating. I was responding to OP's anger and her need to vent, and that I feel her pain. I was not responding to the article where some ignorant person recites long held rape myths that everyone who has ever worked with/against this crime know by heart. I was just encouraging all out there who feel inflamed toward action/activism and to not let anger injure their own well being.

I would never in my life foster any action or words that promote silencing. Your comments are hurtful to someone who is and has been an advocate for decades.

mccardey · Apr 19, 2014

Relayer said:
I was just encouraging all out there who feel inflamed toward action/activism and to not let anger injure their own well being.

I would never in my life foster any action or words that promote silencing. Your comments are hurtful to someone who is and has been an advocate for decades.

Not to speak for Helix, but it was probably the bits where you said

Relayer said:
I should clarify that I used words to educate people who wanted to learn, instead of trying to reach those who would never.

and

Relayer said:
II don't expect to teach anything to anyone who does not want to learn - is all I am saying.
Choose your battles wisely so as not to deplete your resources to win the war.

that caused the misunderstanding, then. Because it did sound to me, too, as though you were suggesting people should only try to educate the amenable on the subject - and to accept that some people would just not be teachable. Which seemed pretty dangerous, all things considered.

I'm still not quite sure what you are saying, though? That the people who can't be re-directed away from rape (and the minimising of rape) ought to be dealt with by the proper authorities perhaps? Shunned? Ignored? It'd be interested to know.

I think Shaldna did well by reporting her concerns. I don't think this sort of journalism should be ignored or glossed over. We get the society we create to some extent.

Helix · Apr 19, 2014

mccardey has nailed it.

Also what worked (or failed to work) for one person might not extend to others. In assuming that it does, definitive statements come across as dismissing others' abilities and autonomy.

crunchyblanket · Apr 20, 2014

I suspect one of the reasons this resonated so strongly with Shaldna is because it's not just the opinion of one crackpot columnist, but a reflection of the society we live in, at least here in the UK.

Unfortunately this is a widely-held belief - I can't say how widely, I would certainly hope it's not majority opinion, but the Daily Mail is (I think) the most popular newspaper in the UK, and the sad truth is that there's a tendency to read these newspapers and swallow the commentary without ever having thought about the content. You can see this reflected in the national attitude towards immigration, benefit 'cheats' and Muslims.

When the attitude already exists, pieces like this only bolster the people who hold these opinions. It's as if seeing it in print confirms their beliefs.

Never mind the fact that reporting sexual harrassment when it happens is sometimes woefully ineffective (see: Jimmy Savile.) Never mind the fact that rape is still, even in 2014, exclusively characterised by so many as being perpetrated by a violent stranger (when the statistics show, again and again, that the average woman is more at risk from men she knows and trusts.)

That's why articles like this need to be challenged. Because it feeds a perception which makes it harder for women who've been sexually assaulted to be taken seriously, and christ knows that's already too big a problem here in the UK.

(As an aside, I always find it grimly hilarious that the Daily Mail equates being scantily clad as 'inviting rape' when the sidebar of their website is full to bursting with pointless paparazzi pieces about women in their bikinis/underwear/skirts blowing up in the wind. And often, these women are very young.)

shaldna · Apr 20, 2014

The Daily Mail hates women. But what really irritates me is that the Daily Mail hires women who hate women. It's very distressing to see women in general being put down by other women rather than supported.

This particular article should never have been printed. It's giving voice to someone and to an opinion which should never be put across as being okay. By choosing to print it, and not having a counter story anywhere, the paper is standing behind this opinion and basically saying that they agree with it.

This isn't journalism. This is propaganda of worst kind.

That said, I'm fully expecting the DM to come back with a response along the lines of 'our columnists views are their own and do not express the views or opinions of the paper' - which is just a fucking cop out to prevent them taking any responsibility.

Pamplemousse · Apr 22, 2014

shaldna said:
Jones goes on to tell us

If a man puts his hand on you, or flirts, or is lascivious, you tell him to bugger off, and report it at the time, but only if you really, really believe him to be dangerous.

Clearly this woman is an idiot, but that line did remind me of an article I read recently.

An Irish woman named Jill Meagher was raped and murdered in Australia in 2012, and recently her husband wrote this article. In it, he really draws attention to the fact that we believe we can somehow spot a rapist, like they're a different species from the average man. But of course they're not, they're just the extreme result of everyday sexism.

I can't explain it all, but he really hits the nail on the head in describing rape culture and victim blaming. Of course, it's tragic to think of why he's had these realisations and why he's had to write this article in the first place.

Relayer · Apr 23, 2014

mccardey said:
Not to speak for Helix, but it was probably the bits where you said

and

that caused the misunderstanding, then. Because it did sound to me, too, as though you were suggesting people should only try to educate the amenable on the subject - and to accept that some people would just not be teachable. Which seemed pretty dangerous, all things considered.

I'm still not quite sure what you are saying, though? That the people who can't be re-directed away from rape (and the minimising of rape) ought to be dealt with by the proper authorities perhaps? Shunned? Ignored? It'd be interested to know.

I think Shaldna did well by reporting her concerns. I don't think this sort of journalism should be ignored or glossed over. We get the society we create to some extent.

Rape is such an explosive subject I doubt anything I say would be taken the right way --- so hence I do something about it instead.

So I wrote a book, poetry, and magazine articles, lectured in libraries, colleges, high schools, private organizations, and work places, went on public radio and television, worked with victims and educated students of every age, race, and gender about rape myths, prevention, reporting procedures and counseling issues.

I do something when I'm angry. I hope all of you so bent on venting will do the same.

Roxxsmom · Apr 23, 2014

Relayer said:
Rape is such an explosive subject I doubt anything I say would be taken the right way --- so hence I do something about it instead.

So I wrote a book, poetry, and magazine articles, lectured in libraries, colleges, high schools, private organizations, and work places, went on public radio and television, worked with victims and educated students of every age, race, and gender about rape myths, prevention, reporting procedures and counseling issues.

I do something when I'm angry. I hope all of you so bent on venting will do the same.

And good for you. But not everyone has the education, professional connections, career focus, talent and resources to do what you've been able to do to educate the public and counsel victims. If I called the local public radio station, or even library, and asked them to let me do a spot on rape, they'd want to know why and how I'm qualified to do this. If were to go to the counseling center at my college (where I teach biology) and wanted to counsel rape victims, they'd kindly tell me I don't have the training or professional credentials to be a counselor, any more than one of the counselors has the training or credentials to teach my biology classes.

All most of us can do is educate ourselves the best we can can, write letters to the editors of publications that perpetuate rape myths, participate in discussions when the topic comes up, and yes, get angry and sad that in spite of the efforts of so many people like yourself, many of whom are far more knowledgeable and persuasive than we are, these myths and attitudes persist.

People get angry and talk about these things because they feel helpless and because they feel that these things affect them. Do you think people shouldn't react emotionally and shouldn't discuss this issue unless they're willing and able to take the career path that you have with regards to anti-rape education and activism?

VRanger · Apr 23, 2014

Roxxsmom said:
This is what's especially scary, and it's true over here too, whether it's Rush Limbaugh or Fox news saying something incredibly sexist and hostile towards women.

I've read a lot of your comments, and am very impressed by them. However I think this sentence is unfair. If you have an example, link it. I haven't listened to Limbaugh since shortly after Clinton's first term started, so I have no frame of reference there. But I read both CBS News and Fox News daily, and I have never read a misogynistic article on Fox News. I would certainly strongly object if I did, but if they have them I've missed them all, for the last many years now.

Relayer · Apr 23, 2014

Roxxsmom said:
And good for you. But not everyone has the education, professional connections, career focus, talent and resources to do what you've been able to do to educate the public and counsel victims. If I called the local public radio station, or even library, and asked them to let me do a spot on rape, they'd want to know why and how I'm qualified to do this. If were to go to the counseling center at my college (where I teach biology) and wanted to counsel rape victims, they'd kindly tell me I don't have the training or professional credentials to be a counselor, any more than one of the counselors has the training or credentials to teach my biology classes.

All most of us can do is educate ourselves the best we can can, write letters to the editors of publications that perpetuate rape myths, participate in discussions when the topic comes up, and yes, get angry and sad that in spite of the efforts of so many people like yourself, many of whom are far more knowledgeable and persuasive than we are, these myths and attitudes persist.

People get angry and talk about these things because they feel helpless and because they feel that these things affect them. Do you think people shouldn't react emotionally and shouldn't discuss this issue unless they're willing and able to take the career path that you have with regards to anti-rape education and activism?

See this is what I don't get and so prevalent on the internet - why are "attacks" now focused on me instead of the issue. Do you think any of what is being thrown at me I haven't experienced ten-fold from ignorant or angry people I was trying to educate. So I had to stop and focus on the people I could reach. I thought that was here.

MY POINT - I want people to be part of solution - this thread seemed like there was some like minded people here - so I offered this advice - perhaps too simplified - let the anger inspire but not burn you out which can happen because you get attacked on every front when it comes to rape. Never mind the poor victims - even the advocates. I am so burned out I am fried. I tried to start a convo here but look how that turned out for me.

It's this simple, get off this thread and write THAT op-ed piece to your local paper, call or email company of the host that spouted the rape myth or get on your blog or go to the NOW or RCC or any other organization and voice your support, DO learn about rape myths (which btw is what I was trying to do here - educate the people who wanted to be educated about a long held rape myth about the way women dress and rape - that it is promoted for several reasons - some which are obvious like oppression and blaming the victim - and one that is not - focusing on what a victim does or doesn't do gives others a sense of false security.

How bout a "good for you" that is not sarcastic. How about something that inspires me to continue combating this horrible crime instead of second guessing my intentions. No, guess you guys can keep right on focusing on me since I am obviously the problem.

Btw this is not a career choice. I earn no money on activism - must people don't.

Cyia · Apr 23, 2014

VRanger said:
But I read both CBS News and Fox News daily, and I have never read a misogynistic article on Fox News. I would certainly strongly object if I did, but if they have them I've missed them all, for the last many years now.

(underlining mine)
I'm not calling you out specifically, your post just helps me make a point.

The underlined is pretty much the crux of the points being made in this thread. When things are really and truly ingrained into everyday life, we DON'T notice most, or even any of them. It's subtle, and often comfortable, because it's the norm.

People notice deviation, not maintenance.

Relayer said:
The problem as I see it is speaking out against rape takes courage that anonymous posts on internet sites do not foster.

Dude - what anonymous? Nearly everyone here has links either in their signature or their profile that connect to their online profiles on social media. Using a screen name doesn't make you anonymous.

kuwisdelu · Apr 23, 2014

Relayer said:
educate the people who wanted to be educated about a long held rape myth about the way women dress and rape

I think part of the great difficulty is educating the people who don't want to be educated. Thoughts?

VRanger · Apr 23, 2014

Just one take on this FWIW:
As Ron White proclaims, "You can't fix stupid". You're unlikely to educate the ignorant columnist who wrote that article. The same isn't true for the Daily Mail, but it has to take a hit in the pocketbook to do it.

You need an organization upset enough with them and with enough financial resources. You find previous such articles in the DM. You interview rapists in prison until you find some who admit they read such articles in the DM. Then you form a class with their victims and sue the DM for fostering a hostile climate, or whatever the lawyers want to call it depending on British tort possibilities.

These kinds of ignorant, harmful beliefs are infuriating and difficult to stomach, but ridding society of them is like pulling weeds in a pasture. It emphasizes the need for strong, widespread education, so that the average citizen knows it for what it is when they see it.

Relayer · Apr 23, 2014

VRanger said:
I've read a lot of your comments, and am very impressed by them. However I think this sentence is unfair. If you have an example, link it. I haven't listened to Limbaugh since shortly after Clinton's first term started, so I have no frame of reference there. But I read both CBS News and Fox News daily, and I have never read a misogynistic article on Fox News. I would certainly strongly object if I did, but if they have them I've missed them all, for the last many years now.

You can't be serious. I can not link anything specific but I don't think this would be too difficult.

VRanger · Apr 23, 2014

Cyia said:
(underlining mine)
I'm not calling you out specifically, your post just helps me make a point.

The underlined is pretty much the crux of the points being made in this thread. When things are really and truly ingrained into everyday life, we DON'T notice most, or even any of them. It's subtle, and often comfortable, because it's the norm.

You don't know me, so you'll have to trust me. If that was the attitude of Fox News, I wouldn't be overlooking it. I'm not specifically a defender of Fox News, but I read both sides of the political spectrum to GET both sides of the political spectrum. In the process I read myriad other articles and editorials as well. I'm informed about what both of those networks publish.

VRanger · Apr 23, 2014

Relayer said:
You can't be serious. I can not link anything specific but I don't think this would be too difficult.

I'd welcome being corrected. Waiting ...

MarkEsq · Apr 23, 2014

VRanger said:
I've read a lot of your comments, and am very impressed by them. However I think this sentence is unfair. If you have an example, link it. I haven't listened to Limbaugh since shortly after Clinton's first term started, so I have no frame of reference there. But I read both CBS News and Fox News daily, and I have never read a misogynistic article on Fox News. I would certainly strongly object if I did, but if they have them I've missed them all, for the last many years now.

Re: Fox News. I would suggest you're not paying attention if you really think Fox News isn't misogynistic.

Just a couple of examples: Here, or here, or here... I mean, really, a very quick Google search comes up with plenty of others.

Relayer · Apr 23, 2014

Cyia said:
(underlining mine)
I'm not calling you out specifically, your post just helps me make a point.

The underlined is pretty much the crux of the points being made in this thread. When things are really and truly ingrained into everyday life, we DON'T notice most, or even any of them. It's subtle, and often comfortable, because it's the norm.

People notice deviation, not maintenance.

Dude - what anonymous? Nearly everyone here has links either in their signature or their profile that connect to their online profiles on social media. Using a screen name doesn't make you anonymous.

Agree about the subtly, not direct but so implied it drips menstrual blood. For instance, their support by increased air time for of anti-female political issues i.e. abortion rights etc.

I am not a dude. I've got the girl parts. You caught me before the edit. It was a mean thing to say so I edited it so as not to inflame the inflamers anymore.

kuwisdelu said:
I think part of the great difficulty is educating the people who don't want to be educated. Thoughts?

This is whole point of all my posts, thank you. It is near impossible - but I have to say I do reach people sometimes. But again my point was, I rather expend my efforts on those who want to hear what I have to say - I can help/save/protect/educate etc. them. The others, I have decided, for the sake of my mental health and ability to help others, I can not.

But a tip - since you asked. You have to help people separate or see their faulty thinking. People take rape personally. Most people have either been in situations that they could rape or could have been raped and think of all kinds of justifications for their thoughts and fantasies, never mind actions. This is not to say these people are all bad or sexist etc. Rape myths are so cultural imbedded - so mixed with gender politics etc. its hard to unravel.

The problem is people are thinking about rape like normal non-rape people. Rapists (and there are all types) think about rape like a rapist. So for example:

Rape myth - If I, or daughter, wife, all women dress like x they will not be raped. But that means all rapist don't want to rape a nun - some target nuns in garb because of their own personal thought process. Conversely, a rapist may see a prostitute and think this is the way all women should be and dress - ready for male needs. A nun, however, breaks his rule, angers him, and so makes him want to rape - to make her a woman ---- or whatever sick shit is going through his criminal mind.

So I tell people they are not rapists - stop trying to think like one. You cannot prevent rape by 'OUTSMARTING" a rapist.

Cyia · Apr 23, 2014

Relayer said:
I am not a dude. I've got the girl parts.

Dude - I call most everyone dude. A lot of people around here do the same.

*90's kid*

Don't dress like a prostitute and you won't get raped

Torgo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

Marian Perera

starting over

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

Relayer

mccardey

Helix

socially distancing

crunchyblanket

the Juggernaut of Imperfection

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

Pamplemousse

Relayer

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

VRanger

Relayer

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

VRanger

Relayer

VRanger

VRanger

MarkEsq

Clever title pending.

Relayer

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny