Filtering confusion

[VanessaNorth]

Originally Posted by guttersquid

If phrases such as "he saw her do this" and "she heard them do that" are filtering and filtering is to be avoided, then here's what we should do: we should pull all of Elmore Leonard's books from the shelves and burn them before some beginning writer reads them and picks up bad habits. After all, we wouldn't want beginning writers to learn from bestselling authors when they can learn so much more from writing forums and creative writing classes.

Elmore Leonard's writing is very cinematic and reads almost like a movie script, something that isn't appropriate in many genres (absolutely not in mine)

Shouting "but but, ELMORE" doesn't make the OP's question irrelevant, you know.

[Bufty]

No need to take everything literally, you know.

This is a Basic Writing Questions Forum and nobody is saying to universally avoid this or that. You know perfectly well it's excessive and careless use of such phrases that is to be avoided.

Adding something helpful often works better than dismissive sarcasm.

Originally Posted by guttersquid

If phrases such as "he saw her do this" and "she heard them do that" are filtering and filtering is to be avoided, then here's what we should do: we should pull all of Elmore Leonard's books from the shelves and burn them before some beginning writer reads them and picks up bad habits. After all, we wouldn't want beginning writers to learn from bestselling authors when they can learn so much more from writing forums and creative writing classes.

[Hydrogen]

Originally Posted by guttersquid

If phrases such as "he saw her do this" and "she heard them do that" are filtering and filtering is to be avoided, then here's what we should do: we should pull all of Elmore Leonard's books from the shelves and burn them before some beginning writer reads them and picks up bad habits. After all, we wouldn't want beginning writers to learn from bestselling authors when they can learn so much more from writing forums and creative writing classes.

Let's burn everything you've ever written as well. Clearly you have nothing worthwhile to say.

[Susan Littlefield]

Originally Posted by guttersquid

If phrases such as "he saw her do this" and "she heard them do that" are filtering and filtering is to be avoided, then here's what we should do: we should pull all of Elmore Leonard's books from the shelves and burn them before some beginning writer reads them and picks up bad habits. After all, we wouldn't want beginning writers to learn from bestselling authors when they can learn so much more from writing forums and creative writing classes.

This is a great reminder of how sometimes it's easy to go to extremes when it comes to writing. There is nothing at all wrong with using "he saw", "she heard", or even "he saw her throw the ball". It depends on the scene.

For example, if a character has just endured a great tragedy, their perceptions would be written differently then another character who is chasing a criminal across the Golden Gate Bridge.

Since we want to portray our characters accurately, that man who just lost his child would "see the girl throwing the ball," because he's grieving and everything is in slow motion. However, that man chasing the murderer would "avoid the girl throwing the ball," because all he wants to do is catch the criminal.

There is nothing wrong with using saw, heard, felt, as long as it's used in context.

There are no rules. Just make sure what you write is clear and that you don't bore or confuse the reader.

[Nekko]

Whoa guys! Some of you have gotten a bit snarky here.

Thanks Susan and Bufty for bringing calm and reason back into the discussion. And thanks for supporting my right to ask a 'basic question' that's been tossed around before!

One thing I've gathered in my short time around the water cooler is that "rules" are not All or Nothing. (Which is what I was seeking reassurance about when I put up the OP) So, put your hackles back down!

In beginning my review of my WIP I can definitely "see" where I've used some of these filtering words in distancing ways, and some "feel" just right in context and will survive -- at least this edit
Don't worry FE - I didn't just search and delete every 'ly' word. That would be foolish, but I can see where I don't need all of them

Thanks again everyone who took the time to consider my question and put up a post.

[guttersquid]

Sorry that my post bothered some of you. It was not my intention to offend. Nor was it my intention to be dismissive or to suggest that the OP's question was irrelevant. But to dismiss me as having "nothing worthwhile to say" just because you didn't like the way I said it does a disservice to the discussion. After all, how can one make an informed decision if one hears only one side of an argument?

Let's be honest. Before we decided to become writers we were simply readers. We would finish reading a novel, set it down, and (hopefully) say, "Wow! That was great." We had no idea that the author had violated so many "rules." Why? Because we had no idea such "rules" existed. We didn't know that the writer had "head hopped" and "filtered" and used too many "ly" adverbs, etc. And we didn't care, because we didn't know we were supposed to.

I used Elmore Leonard as an example for this discussion because he filters a lot -- some would say excessively. But can anyone argue his success as a writer?

Lastly:

VanessaNorth, you say that "Elmore Leonard's writing is very cinematic and reads almost like a movie script." I'm not sure what you meant by "cinematic," but I took it to mean that he writes visually. Well, isn't that a good thing for any genre? And as one very schooled in screenwriting, I can say with authority that Leonard's writing reads nothing like movie scripts.

[guttersquid]

Susan, your last post put it perfectly.

We should all remember that beginners are like sponges: they absorb everything. And the more the beginner, the dryer the sponge. We need to remember also that they don't always understand the subtleties of the do's and do not's, and the things we say can sometimes do more harm than good.

[Bufty]

Agreed. The simplest way to reduce misunderstanding is to avoid directives and universal statements.

[BethS]

Originally Posted by VanessaNorth

Elmore Leonard's writing is very cinematic and reads almost like a movie script,

Those are mutually exclusive terms, at least to me.

movie script = mostly dialogue, very spare in descriptions.

cinematic = visually stunning and detailed

You don't normally have both in the same novel.

[Hydrogen]

Originally Posted by BethS

Those are mutually exclusive terms, at least to me.

movie script = mostly dialogue, very spare in descriptions.

cinematic = visually stunning and detailed

You don't normally have both in the same novel.

Um.

[Roxxsmom]

Originally Posted by guttersquid

We didn't know that the writer had "head hopped" and "filtered" and used too many "ly" adverbs, etc. And we didn't care, because we didn't know we were supposed to.

A reader doesn't care about the violation of the rules for their own sake. But they do notice things and can be turned off by them without knowing why.

The reader may not say, "That story bugged me with all the head hopping." But he might say, "Jeez, I had trouble keeping all the characters' thoughts straight or in relating to any of the characters and I gave up on trying."

Filtering tends to distance the reader from the character. If there's a lot of filtering going on, most readers won't think of it as such (I didn't even know it was called filtering until recently), but they may notice that they didn't feel as "close" to that character as they did to some others they've read. Maybe it won't bug them, or maybe they'll stop reading because "the character just didn't grab them."

But you are right that many "rules" in writing are really guidelines, and there are situations where they can be bent or broken. I doubt most of us could successfully write a novel length work with no filtering at all, nor should most of us try to.

I think sometimes those of us who are gaining experience as writers and are past the raw beginner stage but are not yet experts (and I definitely include myself in this), will sometimes jump on things people do without thinking about whether we are neutering someone's uniqueness or tone as a writer or mucking around with character voice. Sometimes the writer wants a sentence to sound weak and tentative or passive or repetitive or filtered.

[Nekko]

Thanks Roxxsmom for putting it so clearly.

[Dale Emery]

Usually I read the word "seem" as expressing either doubt or misinterpretation. The difference depends on whether the narration... uh... seems to be contemporaneous with the events of the story.

If the narrator seems to be narrating as the story unfolds, I read "seem" as doubt. So when I read, "seemed to be a residential area," I figure that the narrator is uncertain that it's a residential area, and is aware of being uncertain.

If the narrator seems to be narrating from a later time, a time by which the narrator has learned the true meaning of information that was not clear at the time, I read "seem" as "I mistakenly believed, given what I knew at the time."

If neither of these is true—if the narrator has no doubt while narrating, or the narrator is not telling the story at a later time with greater knowledge—"seems" comes off as authorial intrusion: The POV character fully believes something, but the author interjects to alert us that it's not true.

[Nekko]

Dale - You make some interesting points. I especially found the second explanation very helpful.

This may be a "duh" question - Would I be correct in interpreting your first one: the narrator is uncertain that it's a residential area - as my MC, who's making the observation, is uncertain at the time she is making it, that it is a residential area?

[Dale Emery]

Originally Posted by Nekko

This may be a "duh" question - Would I be correct in interpreting your first one: the narrator is uncertain that it's a residential area - as my MC, who's making the observation, is uncertain at the time she is making it, that it is a residential area?

Yes, that's what I meant.

[BethS]

Originally Posted by Hydrogen

Um.

?

[Old Hack]

Originally Posted by Hydrogen

Let's burn everything you've ever written as well. Clearly you have nothing worthwhile to say.

Originally Posted by Hydrogen

I still stand by my statement. It's not how you said it. It's what you said. It was, well, stupid. You lacked a thing called logic. You used a fallacy.

Originally Posted by Hydrogen

Um.

Hydrogen.

You're still quite new here, and so perhaps you haven't cottoned onto how things work round here.

You definitely don't seem aware of AW's one rule. It's very simple, and it goes like this:

Respect your fellow writer.

You are not doing that here.

You are coming across as rude, argumentative, and disrespectful, and each one of those things implies a breach of our one rule.

Stop it right now, or I'll give you a time-out.

And everyone else: if you see rudeness anywhere in AW, please click the "report post" button. It's the exclamation mark in the red triangle. It really helps the mods keep on top of anything. Thank you.