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[Publisher] Ravenous Romance

veinglory

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I don't see any meaningful parallel between PA and RR. The latter is not vanity, they may spin but I have never seen them lie, their claims are (I think overly-)ambitious but not impossible. I am skeptical that they will be able to meet their goals but they have manuscripts that meet a quality standard, experienced staff, a market plan and start-up capital.
 

Stacia Kane

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December, I was just moseying around your blog and found an interesting post from June 2007: "Find the Right Publisher (Part One)." You compare two companies: Cleis, of stellar repute; and Publish America, who you refer to as "Champion Scammers."

Thank you! :)

Granted, they're both print publishers, but the similarities between the practices of PA and the hype and spin that's been most of what's been seen/heard of Ravenous Romance these past few months, whether directly or via their various representatives/cheerleaders, are eerie. Perhaps it's unfair to compare an already established company with one not yet out of the starting gate, but reading this was a bit too close for comfort and did not inspire confidence. Maybe things will become clearer, one way or another, post-launch.

Well...there's spin and there's spin. I would expect Ravenous, as a company that has not yet opened, to put some spin out there (although I think the "We're going to kick all y'all's butts" is a bit much: I find it distasteful). I would expect them to be eagerly seeking submissions. And I do think it's important to remember that their official spokespeople, while leaving questions unanswered, haven't been as rude and cheerleader-y as their unofficial ones--people their official spokespeople have asked us to disregard.

In other words, they can't control the behavior of their authors any more than any other publisher can--my behavior doesn't reflect on Juno or Del Rey or EC, either--but what they can control has at least been professional, even if it hasn't been as informative as some of us would have liked. (*This is notwithstanding a claim that was made on EREC that those of us asking questions were doing so because Ravenous had rejected us, which is ridiculous and is, at least in my case, a total and complete lie. The anonymous commenter claimed she'd been told this by editorial staff; I am trying to take that with a grain of salt, rather than believe their editorial staff is spreading such ridiculous falsehoods. But it does add another reason for me to be uncomfortable with them, even if I don't think they're out to scam people.)

If you read the rest of the series I go on to analyze the websites of epublishers and researching epublishers in some depth; there are some differences between the two (epublishers tend to be more eager for submissions, for example, and there's nothing scammy or wrong about that. Epublishers release a lot more books, on average, as well, so they need more submissions to find the good ones.)

The main point of the series, aside from helping people seek and find scam warning signs, is that submitting to start-up houses or houses without a lot of sales is a risk; that it's best to wait until you see the house succeeding, that it's best to wait until you can buy some of their books and see that they're edited to professional standard (and having read what at least one of their editors thinks is professional-quality work and "porn", I have serious doubts about this), that the website works, that the owners of the company aren't running around online calling people names and screeching about "unfairness", and that sales have reached a decent level, because readers tend to be house-loyal rather than author-loyal with ebooks; they don't pay attention to promo, but go with the house they're familiar or comfortable with. Which is exactly what my point has been about Ravenous all along.

In your sum up, out of context perhaps, three out of four things stand out:

We've learned that the website of a legitimate publisher is geared towards selling books to the public and not on getting more submissions;

[...]

We've learned that a legitimate publisher doesn't need to talk about how many authors it "has" or how many books it's published;

We've learned that a legitimate publisher focuses on the business of publishing, and not on discussing how "happy" everybody is.

Whether or not Ravenous Romance is a scam operation is not for me to say. However, your post gave much food for thought. Excellent reportage and recommended reading, in general.

I'm really, really glad the post gave you food for thought; that's exactly what I hoped the entire series would do when I wrote it, and I really appreciate you bringing it up here and again, thank you so much.

But I really don't think at all, from everything I've seen, that Ravenous is a scam (again, despite my discomfort with the conflict of interest). I haven't seen them putting out cheerleadery info about what a big happy family!! they are; their website at the moment is just a placeholder but it is clearly aimed at readers (at least it was last time I was there); and if there is a bit of hoo-rah going on about the number of submissions they've received or whatever it hasn't reached a level where it starts setting off warning bells for me; it's hype, and I think it's working against them, but again I don't think it means they're a scam.

That doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to submit to them; I never recommend people submit to startup publishers, especially startup epublishers run by people who, no matter what their experience in print erotica is, have little to no experience I'm aware of in the ebook market, which is very different from print. The expectations of readers are very different; the market is much more limited; it requires a very different approach. But in this case, my recommendation that writers wait and see how things go before they rush to submit isn't because I doubt the integrity of the owners or I suspect them of claiming their health issues kept them from sending out royalties or whatever. It's simply because in the ebook industry it takes time for a publisher to develop a following, and some of them never really do--I know a few houses that have been open several years now and still aren't managing per-title sales over double digits monthly.

To put it simply (sorry, I'm always long-winded in the mornings): I would not myself submit to Ravenous. I'm not crazy about their attitude; there are certain things done in their name, whether with approval or not, that I would not be comfortable/would not like associating myself with in any way. I don't like the agent involvement, and I think they have a very skewed idea of what the ebook market is and what is possible in that market. And more to the point, I don't submit to start-up epublishers. I just don't. This is my work and my career, and I don't like to take chances with it.

But my reasons for not submitting have nothing to do with thinking the owners or editors or anyone are planning to cheat authors, or thinking they don't know how to run a publishing house and will try to make royalty payments out of their personal Paypal accounts, or anything of that nature.

Does that help? Feel free to PM me as well, if you like, or email. My email is on my user profile on the blog as well as here.
 
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victoriastrauss

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In evaluating a publisher, you have to look at everything--not one thing or a few things on their own. So maybe the publisher hypes itself; maybe it seems to be acquiring a lot of authors in a hurry, and maybe there are disturbing conflict of interest questions. But maybe its founders have publishing experience, maybe its contract is basically OK (even if there are some things you'd want to negotiate), and maybe it pays advances and competitive royalty rates and is investing in meaningful publicity efforts (even if it has made a couple of PR mistakes).

Taking all those things in balance--yes, there are questions. Yes, given some of those questions, there seems to be potential for a disadvantageous situation for some authors (and I say potential; nothing is proven). Yes, RR is a startup. But it seems clear it's a real publisher with a real business plan run by people who know something about the biz. It may succeed or it may not (and that's true for EVERY new publisher, no matter how professional)--but there's nothing whatever to suggest a scam.

I really wish that people would not be so quick to use the word "scam," or to conclude that asking questions is the same as accusing someone of being a scammer. The word "scam" has a very specific connotation of deliberate dishonesty. Poor business practices are not necessarily the same as dishonesty; ditto for amateurism or misguided publicity efforts or any number of unwise things done in ignorance or error. And disliking certain aspects of a publisher's business plan, or asking questions about its business practices, or even being dubious about its long-term prospects, does not in any way equate to an accusation of scammery.

Throwing around the s-word without any evidence is sloppy thinking at best, irresponsible at worst. Please, let's eliminate it from our continued discussion of Ravenous Romance.

- Victoria
 

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Publish America: Scam.

Ravenous Romance: NOT a scam.

The End.

Slightly off topic question: Is it possible for an e-publisher to be a scam? The scam invariably seems to involve the publisher conning the author into buying a whole lot of (overpriced) copies of her own book. That wouldn't work with e-books, would it?
 

mythicagirl

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Oh, that is just too funny! I totally heart air guitar players!

BTW, does anyone know if the response time to submissions has slowed? I submitted a short story a few weeks back and haven't heard anything yet. I'm torn between resubmitting or just waiting it out. Any thoughts?


Thanks, I tried to put a comedic spin on the whole vamp mythology, though my story gets gritty and dark. I figure with RR's launch coming up, they're quite busy. I'll be rooting for RR, though in this time of economic upheaval, I wonder if any business besides the gas suppliers will florish. But at least it challenged me to write something outside what I normally create.
 

Stacia Kane

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Publish America: Scam.

Ravenous Romance: NOT a scam.

The End.

Slightly off topic question: Is it possible for an e-publisher to be a scam? The scam invariably seems to involve the publisher conning the author into buying a whole lot of (overpriced) copies of her own book. That wouldn't work with e-books, would it?

It is indeed possible. I know of one house that charges authors for covers and seems more like some sort of bizarre modeling agency than a publisher.

I've also heard of some houses where royalties aren't accounted or paid properly, and more of the money goes into the publisher's pockets than the authors'. Remember, with ebooks sold from a publisher's website you have only the publisher's word how many copies a book sold. :)

There's all kinds of ways to scam authors. Making them pay for books is only one of them.
 

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December's mentioned a couple of ways for an epublisher to be a scam. I can think of a few more, just by recycling some of the old print publishing scams. "Your book is good, but it needs some work before we can accept it. Here, let me give you the contact details of a book doctor who will charge you a really good rate if you mention my name..."

I'm *not* seeing any suggestion of something like that around Ravenous. There are plenty of things to consider in a harsh light, but they're only the sort of things that say "new business with usual new business risk of going belly-up".
 

Fae Sutherland

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Are these examples of great PR ideas, author exploitation, or something in between?

A Ravenous Romance author is contractually bound to create and maintain a link from his own website (should he have one) to Ravenous Romance's website. Perhaps this a typical request for a publisher to make of the authors they are publishing. I can see an author wanting to do just that anyway, on his own, in the name of promoting his work and to publicize the company bringing that work to light. I find the contractual directive aspect disturbing.

RR authors are going to have individual blogs set up on RR's website. They are expected to contribute to these blogs at least once a month. It's mandatory. Furthermore, RR is empowered to censor those blogs as they see fit regarding possible "inappropriate" content.

It seems a lot to require of someone who is getting $25 for a story. Of course millions could be made with royalties. That's the great unknown.

This is the first I've heard of the blogging/linking thing. I'm curious where that information is revealed? I think most authors put links to their publishers on their sites, and a lot of epubs have a company blog that their authors contribute to, so neither strikes me as overly unusual. I've never heard of it being contractual, though, could you share where that information came from?
 

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Mmm. If that blogging thing is an actual contractual requirement, that crosses the line on "money flows towards the author" as far as I'm concerned. That's a requirement to provide them with additional material for no compensation. Even if it's not contractual, but people are being leaned on heavily to do it, I'd consider it a red flag.

And an explicit contractual requirement to provide them with free advertising on your own site is pretty dodgy as well. There are legitimate reasons to wish to disassociate oneself from a publisher while a story is still under contract.

I'd want to be sure that this is really in the contract, or being actively pushed in a "you'd better not refuse" way by Ravenous, but yes, that's something where I'd be questioning why a publisher felt the need to force authors to do this.
 

JulieB

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I really wish that people would not be so quick to use the word "scam," or to conclude that asking questions is the same as accusing someone of being a scammer. The word "scam" has a very specific connotation of deliberate dishonesty. Poor business practices are not necessarily the same as dishonesty; ditto for amateurism or misguided publicity efforts or any number of unwise things done in ignorance or error. And disliking certain aspects of a publisher's business plan, or asking questions about its business practices, or even being dubious about its long-term prospects, does not in any way equate to an accusation of scammery.

Could we just virtually frame this and place it at the top of BB&C?
 

JulesJones

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Sakamonda, nobody's arguing about whether blogging and linking to the publisher from your own website are useful things to be doing. I'm a motormouth online, and my website has *lots* of links to my publisher. It's being contractually required to do these things that I'd find worrisome.

I personally would be inclined to give Ravenous the benefit of the doubt on this one while it's still "I've heard..." from sources without a significant posting history -- not least because I think Perkins is a smart enough agent to know that some authors shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the paying audience.[*] But it would appear from Chumplet's post that blogging is not a contractual requirement, but linking might be, at least on some contracts.

[* this is an example of why the "who are these people and what experience do they have of the publishing industry?" routine is important.]
 

victoriastrauss

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What really irks me about these boards are all the purely speculative/negative posts by people who are not under contract by Ravenous themselves and therefore don't know the truth about what being under contract with them really means. If you want to know what RR authors are contractually required to do, why not post a question here for RR authors to respond to, or contact the RR staff directly (they're very accessible) to ask the question, rather than spinning inaccurate rumors here?

I have to say I agree, and I was contemplating a post saying more or less the same thing.

I'm not defending RR--I've expressed my concerns about it here and elsewhere, and I'm not feeling any more reassured as RR gears up for launch. But I'm quite uncomfortable with the speculative turn we've taken in this thread. It's one thing to question a publisher's business policies based on what we can prove it's actually doing. It's quite another to question policies we think a business may have based on something we heard from someone else that has yet to be confirmed.

Writing on Walls, you seem to have inside knowledge, but without knowing who you are or how you come by it, I'm reluctant to take it at face value, especially since some of what you're suggesting contradicts documentation I've seen. Granted, I've only seen a couple of RR contracts, and different contracts may be offered for different authors and different kinds of properties. And I'm not accusing you of not telling the truth. It's just that I'm cautious of unsubstantiated information, especially where the identity of the person offering it isn't known.

If you'd like to contact me privately to reveal your identity and let me know how you come by your knowledge of RR's contracts and other issues, I'd be glad to post here to vouch for you, if, based on the information you give me, I feel confident that I can do that. My email address is [email protected], or you can PM me.

Thanks.

- Victoria
 

Chumplet

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For the record, I don't remember anything in my email correspondence about mandatory participation in the blog. If I did, I'm not going to angst about it. After all, an email edict isn't binding.

My other point is that Holly has been very generous with my request for an extension on delivery of my manuscript that had been contracted on spec. I had asked for the extension because, well, most of you know the reason.
 

jennontheisland

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Hm, main page isn't exactly work friendly, but once you're in the store, it seems reasonably well set up. I notice they've titled their lines, but offer no explanation of them. A bit confusing, but other pubs have done the same thing, I suppose. I really wonder though...can they actually TM "Once Upon A Time" ?
 

brimfire

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jennontheisland: If you go to the About page and click on Submission Guidelines, the pdf explains the categories. Took me forever to find that.
 

Stacia Kane

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Hm, main page isn't exactly work friendly, but once you're in the store, it seems reasonably well set up. I notice they've titled their lines, but offer no explanation of them. A bit confusing, but other pubs have done the same thing, I suppose. I really wonder though...can they actually TM "Once Upon A Time" ?


They probably--this is conjecture, mind--have it trademarked as it relates to erotic fiction with the slant of that particular category. In other words, you can use the phrase "Once upon a time" all you like, but you can't publish erotic fiction about unicorns (or whatever that line is) and call it Once Upon A Time.

Like I said, it's conjecture, but it's based on the fact that Romantica is a term trademarked by Ellora's Cave as it relates to erotic romance. So again, you can say "romantica" all you like to refer to other things, but you can't call your erotic romance Romantica unless it's published by EC.
 

IceCreamEmpress

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I really wonder though...can they actually TM "Once Upon A Time" ?

Businesses can trademark the use of a word or phrase in a particular context. Grocery stores can sell all the Macintosh apples they want, but computer manufacturers other than Steve Jobs's outfit can't name their computers Apples or Macintoshes.
 

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I don't understand the point in labeling the lines with titles that have to be explained on a pdf. I don't see why they want to make it more difficult to find what you want than it needs to be. But then I dislike pdf because every time I open one it tried to download a newer version.

I am speaking in general. I do not need directions to find a specific line. I just don't get why make things difficult - it's not cute, it's annoying.

Stlight
 

mlhernandez

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Actually, when you start browsing the categories, the genre is clearly labeled right beneath the category. So if you click on, say, Breathless, right beneath the category it says Romantic Suspense. Fantastica is Paranormal Romance, etc.