Simultaneously querying agents and submitting to small presses

chompers said:

Whatever you decide to do, don't do it because you're impatient.

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This. I've heard of people getting requests from agents they've queries months after they'd landed someone else and published their book.

Since you have 50+ posts, it might be worth putting your query letter up in QLH to see if that's where the problem lies.

I have received requests from agents after publishing with small presses, but I was still happy I got published. Most small presses, mine included (Permuted Press), take unsolicited subs, so authors don't need agents to sub to them, anyway. One reason I wanted an agent was to help me negotiate a better contract. That, and to help me get better offers later on down the road. So I don't think you'd really be hurting your chances by submitting to indie presses.

Katrina S. Forest said:

I know my little voice doesn't count for much but I'm going to disagree.

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AW would be nothing without its members, and that makes you very important round here.

I would assume if someone likes a book enough to pay it an advance (even one some might consider modest), the book is far from "not so good." You know I think most of your advice is awesome, Old Hack, but to me, this is a bit insulting to anyone here who is quite proud of their advance, even if it didn't hit those big figures we all dream about.

Also, if a book that got an advance is not so good, what does that make the manuscripts that have not gotten an advance yet? I choose to believe that good books can still struggle to find a home sometimes. Because I don't buy the argument that I (or anyone else who got really close, but didn't quite make it) haven't written anything good yet.

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Even as I was typing that I knew it wasn't right, and you're right to pull me up on it.

I won't edit my post as I don't want to disrupt the discussion here: but I'd probably have been better writing something like "more commercial".

I didn't mean to insult anyone, and I'm sorry for that.

kkbe said:

Realistically, don't most of the bucks big houses spend go to the well-known names? Paying them, paying advertising, the whole bit. I know there are exceptions, of course there are. But generally speaking, I think that's the case.

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It's not necessarily the case, although it can be. And even then it doesn't automatically follow that new writers get paid less than established writers: often the reverse is true, as publishers know what established writers are likely to sell.

Don't look at trends and averages and odds when working out how to publish. What matters is the book. The odds are different for every single one.

Smaller presses publish fewer novels, and some of them--the ones I'm targeting--seem more receptive to a novel like mine. If my novel gets picked up by one of them, I'm hoping it might get a little more of that attention. It's a gamble for them and me. Of course, you can say that about any publisher and any novel. . .

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Smaller publishers also tend to have smaller capabilities, distribution channels and print runs, though, so even if your book does get more attention (and I'm not sure what attention you're talking about), it is likely to make fewer sales. I know I'm talking in big general sweeps here, but it's a pattern I've seen a lot over the years.

Like I said, I didn't even consider querying indie publishers until I found myself running out of possible agents. I figured at that point, try a new tactic. And while the agent pool is becoming slim pickins, it isn't quite exhausted so I'm leaving no stone unturned.

I do realize this is unconventional and not recommended by a lot of savvy folks who know their stuff. Maybe it'll come back and bite me in the ass. At this point, I'm willing to take that risk.

Forgive the long-winded response and derail.

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It seems wise to me to submit to smaller publishers when you run out of agents to send your work to. I don't think that's at all unconventional. But I wouldn't overlap the two groups. If you do find an agent you might well have caused complications there further down the line; and if you do find a publisher before your agent-search is exhausted, you are likely to wonder if you missed out.

dascmom, I hope you don't mind me responding to Old Hack.

Old Hack, really appreciate your comments. I have a lot to learn about the business of getting a novel out there and sold.

Old Hack said:

What matters is the book. The odds are different for every single one.

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I believe that's true. And a lot of variables come into play, not the least of which is talent. There's luck. Subjectivity. I'm betting more than a few really fine novels fall through the cracks. Of course, chances are better for a fine novel than a crap one.

Then again, "crap" is subjective, sooo...

Smaller publishers also tend to have smaller capabilities, distribution channels and print runs, though, so even if your book does get more attention (and I'm not sure what attention you're talking about), it is likely to make fewer sales. I know I'm talking in big general sweeps here, but it's a pattern I've seen a lot over the years.

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I'm talking about using available sources to get one's novel out there, noticed, sold. I know indie presses have limited resources but percentage-wise, wouldn't a publisher who prints 3 novels a year dedicate more of its resources to each of the 3 than would a publisher who takes on 30 novels a year? Or 300? And in this digital age, isn't the playing field leveled a little bit?

It seems wise to me to submit to smaller publishers when you run out of agents to send your work to. I don't think that's at all unconventional. But I wouldn't overlap the two groups. If you do find an agent you might well have caused complications there further down the line; and if you do find a publisher before your agent-search is exhausted, you are likely to wonder if you missed out.

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I don't want to complicate matters but on the same token, I don't want to limit my chances. Janet Reid encourages writers to 'query widely'.

I've queried 109 literary agents so far. I chose those 109 with care, seeking agents who sounded like they'd be most receptive to a novel like mine. When I look at P&E, I see hundreds of agents/agencies I haven't queried. But how many of those would want to rep my novel?

Of the 109 agents I queried, 4 requested fulls. That's just shy of 4%.

Compare that to the indie publishers I've queried. 13 indie publishers, 4 full requests. That's about 30%.

I'm running out of agents I think would be most receptive to my book. There are some left, so yeah, I want to keep trying. Meanwhile, three indie publishers are considering my novel right now, three out of 13. To me, it just makes sense to go that route, a surer bet. But I don't want to quit querying agents because you never know. . .

Ugh.

kkbe said:

dascmom, I hope you don't mind me responding to Old Hack.

Old Hack, really appreciate your comments. I have a lot to learn about the business of getting a novel out there and sold. I believe that's true. And a lot of variables come into play, not the least of which is talent. There's luck. Subjectivity. I'm betting more than a few really fine novels fall through the cracks. Of course, chances are better for a fine novel than a crap one.

Then again, "crap" is subjective, sooo...



I'm talking about using available sources to get one's novel out there, noticed, sold. I know indie presses have limited resources but percentage-wise, wouldn't a publisher who prints 3 novels a year dedicate more of its resources to each of the 3 than would a publisher who takes on 30 novels a year? Or 300? And in this digital age, isn't the playing field leveled a little bit?I don't want to complicate matters but on the same token, I don't want to limit my chances. Janet Reid encourages writers to 'query widely'.

I've queried 109 literary agents so far. I chose those 109 with care, seeking agents who sounded like they'd be most receptive to a novel like mine. When I look at P&E, I see hundreds of agents/agencies I haven't queried. But how many of those would want to rep my novel?

Of the 109 agents I queried, 4 requested fulls. That's just shy of 4%.

Compare that to the indie publishers I've queried. 13 indie publishers, 4 full requests. That's about 30%.

I'm running out of agents I think would be most receptive to my book. There are some left, so yeah, I want to keep trying. Meanwhile, three indie publishers are considering my novel right now, three out of 13. To me, it just makes sense to go that route, a surer bet. But I don't want to quit querying agents because you never know. . .

Ugh.

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But what if you get agent interest and have already sold your book to a small publisher?

If you want an agent, I'd say you should exhaust ALL your agent-hunting resources, and THEN look for a small publisher. When you've queried every reputable agent who represents your genre, and waited a few months (while writing your next book) for their responses, THEN query small publishers. The small publishers aren't going anywhere. They can wait until you're sure that your preferred path won't work.

Captcha said:

But what if you get agent interest and have already sold your book to a small publisher?

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WWJD?

J, as in Janet Reid , said never sign with an indie publisher without agent representation. So hopefully, I would have agent representation before selling my novel to a small publisher.

And hopefully, said agent/publisher will be interested in other novels I've written/shall write.

If you want an agent, I'd say you should exhaust ALL your agent-hunting resources, and THEN look for a small publisher. When you've queried every reputable agent who represents your genre, and waited a few months (while writing your next book) for their responses, THEN query small publishers. The small publishers aren't going anywhere. They can wait until you're sure that your preferred path won't work.

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Genre, or lack there-of, is an issue. It's not the type of novel that neatly fits a particular genre. . .




As for waiting a few months for agent responses whilst writing my next book: been there, done that. (Querying that one, too.) Eek.

kkbe said:

WWJD?

J, as in Janet Reid , said never sign with an indie publisher without agent representation. So hopefully, I would have agent representation before selling my novel to a small publisher.

And hopefully, said agent/publisher will be interested in other novels I've written/shall write.

Genre, or lack there-of, is an issue. It's not the type of novel that neatly fits a particular genre. . .




As for waiting a few months for agent responses whilst writing my next book: been there, done that. (Querying that one, too.) Eek.

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Janet Reid's an agent, right? I mean, I think she does good work and I don't think she's sinister or anything, but she's obviously going to have a pretty strong pro-agent bias. There are lots of writers successfully working with small publishers without having agents.

(I have an agent for the stuff I target to the bigger houses, but when I sell to e-pubs I don't go through her.)

I mean, this is your career and your choice - I don't really mean to be arguing that YOU should do things differently. But just in the interest of having lots of different opinions represented on the thread - a lot of writers don't feel it's necessary or beneficial to have an agent for working with smaller publishers.

And if the goal is to use the offer from the smaller publisher as bait to land an agent... I'm not sure how effective that would be. Maybe worth a try, but I really don't think it's a sure thing. And the agents who might be most likely to be interested in deals that small may not be the ones most likely to get the writer larger deals in the future...

ETA: And if you're really following Janet Reid as gospel...

"Don't send your work to editors before securing an agent. If you do so, you'll find getting an agent is MUCH harder because you've trampled all over the crime scene and contaminated the evidence." and in the comments, "And it's not all that much easier to get an agent with a deal in hand. I know that seems weird, but it's very true." - J. Reid, http://jetreidliterary.blogspot.ca/2014/08/query-question-editor-interest-but-no.html

kkbe said:

Old Hack, really appreciate your comments. I have a lot to learn about the business of getting a novel out there and sold. I believe that's true. And a lot of variables come into play, not the least of which is talent. There's luck. Subjectivity. I'm betting more than a few really fine novels fall through the cracks. Of course, chances are better for a fine novel than a crap one.

Then again, "crap" is subjective, sooo...

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You're right, there are a lot of variables involved in getting your book picked up, and luck is one of them. But if you write a brilliant book, put together a strong submission package, and submit it to the right places, you will improve your luck enormously.

I've worked on many slush piles and most submissions do not get these things right.

Even when everything is done properly there is no guarantee your book will be picked up. But the odds are still better for the good books than for the bad.

I'm talking about using available sources to get one's novel out there, noticed, sold. I know indie presses have limited resources but percentage-wise, wouldn't a publisher who prints 3 novels a year dedicate more of its resources to each of the 3 than would a publisher who takes on 30 novels a year? Or 300?

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Your reasoning only works if the two publishers start off with equal resources.

The reality is that bigger publishers tend to have more stuff (where "stuff" is money, attention, publishing expertise, distribution, marketing money and skill, and so on) than smaller publishers to spend on each book they publish.

And in this digital age, isn't the playing field leveled a little bit?I don't want to complicate matters but on the same token, I don't want to limit my chances. Janet Reid encourages writers to 'query widely'.

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Digital books have not leveled the playing field in the ways you might think. It's been shown that 40% of online sales result from books being first selected in physical bookshops: that means that if you don't have a print edition, or a print edition which is widely stocked in bookshops, you're only going to make 60% of the online sales you might otherwise have achieved. This is significant.

You should query widely, for sure. But query wisely too. If you want an agent, don't spoil her pitch by submitting to publishers too.

I've queried 109 literary agents so far. I chose those 109 with care, seeking agents who sounded like they'd be most receptive to a novel like mine. When I look at P&E, I see hundreds of agents/agencies I haven't queried. But how many of those would want to rep my novel?

Of the 109 agents I queried, 4 requested fulls. That's just shy of 4%.

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Looking at those figures I suspect your query needs work.

Compare that to the indie publishers I've queried. 13 indie publishers, 4 full requests. That's about 30%.

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That's 13 publishers your agent won't be able to query. Why spoil things for yourself when there's no need?

I'm running out of agents I think would be most receptive to my book. There are some left, so yeah, I want to keep trying. Meanwhile, three indie publishers are considering my novel right now, three out of 13. To me, it just makes sense to go that route, a surer bet. But I don't want to quit querying agents because you never know. . .

Ugh.

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I really think you need to decide what you want to do, and then stick with it.

Authors who have agents usually make better deals, earn more money, sell more copies, and sell more foreign and subsidiary rights than authors without agents.

Smaller presses usually sell fewer copies of each title they publish than bigger presses.

Query agents or query publishers. Don't query both. It complicates things for you later down the line.

Dascmom, I keep wanting to apologize. But I guess this is kind of relevant to your original post. . .

Captcha said:

Janet Reid's an agent, right? I mean, I think she does good work and I don't think she's sinister or anything, but she's obviously going to have a pretty strong pro-agent bias. There are lots of writers successfully working with small publishers without having agents.

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I know. I just don't know enough about contracts and all that to feel comfortable signing with any publisher without agent (or pub. lawyer) advice.

(I have an agent for the stuff I target to the bigger houses, but when I sell to e-pubs I don't go through her.)

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Ahh. The indie pubs I've contacted are both e and print. Not exclusively e-pubs.

I mean, this is your career and your choice - I don't really mean to be arguing that YOU should do things differently. But just in the interest of having lots of different opinions represented on the thread - a lot of writers don't feel it's necessary or beneficial to have an agent for working with smaller publishers.

And if the goal is to use the offer from the smaller publisher as bait to land an agent...

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That's not my goal. I am thinking I would need an agent to navigate contract stuff, should an indie pub. make me an offer, being as I don't know squat about contracts and stuff.

Back to J. Reid--I'm not sure how effective that would be. Maybe worth a try, but I really don't think it's a sure thing. And the agents who might be most likely to be interested in deals that small may not be the ones most likely to get the writer larger deals in the future...

ETA: And if you're really following Janet Reid as gospel...

"Don't send your work to editors before securing an agent. If you do so, you'll find getting an agent is MUCH harder because you've trampled all over the crime scene and contaminated the evidence." and in the comments, "And it's not all that much easier to get an agent with a deal in hand. I know that seems weird, but it's very true." - J. Reid, http://jetreidliterary.blogspot.ca/2014/08/query-question-editor-interest-but-no.html

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Thank you for that. Not following Ms. Reid as gospel, but she knows a heck of a lot more than I do. I wish I could find that darn blog post about never signing with an indie publisher without getting an agent first. I swear it was her blog post. Maybe I'm wrong. OY. Thank you, Capcha.

Old Hack: You're right, there are a lot of variables involved in getting your book picked up, and luck is one of them. But if you write a brilliant book, put together a strong submission package, and submit it to the right places, you will improve your luck enormously.

I've worked on many slush piles and most submissions do not get these things right.

Even when everything is done properly there is no guarantee your book will be picked up. But the odds are still better for the good books than for the bad.

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That makes sense, I know.

The reality is that bigger publishers tend to have more stuff (where "stuff" is money, attention, publishing expertise, distribution, marketing money and skill, and so on) than smaller publishers to spend on each book they publish...
(snip)
Digital books have not leveled the playing field in the ways you might think. It's been shown that 40% of online sales result from books being first selected in physical bookshops: that means that if you don't have a print edition, or a print edition which is widely stocked in bookshops, you're only going to make 60% of the online sales you might otherwise have achieved. This is significant.

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I didn't know that, Old Hack.

You should query widely, for sure. But query wisely too. If you want an agent, don't spoil her pitch by submitting to publishers too.

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I was thinking, maybe erroneously, that because my list of queried indie publishers was so small, it wouldn't be a problem. There would still be a lot of publishers to which an agent might sub my novel. Am I wrong about that?

Looking at those figures I suspect your query needs work.

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If it matters, I'm confident of my query. It's been through query letter hell and back and I have faith in it, just as I have faith in the novel. But that novel is going to be a tough sell, I know that. I need to find. . .



I could write a different query don't want to misrepresent my book to anybody.

I really think you need to decide what you want to do, and then stick with it.

Authors who have agents usually make better deals, earn more money, sell more copies, and sell more foreign and subsidiary rights than authors without agents.

Smaller presses usually sell fewer copies of each title they publish than bigger presses.

Query agents or query publishers. Don't query both. It complicates things for you later down the line.

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Again, Old Hack, I really appreciate your take on this. Hopefully, you're helping other writers who are finding themselves in the same boat.

I thought about what you're saying and I realized something: I'm querying both out of fear that nobody will, you know. Doing that instead of choosing one or the other because that's the route I want to take.

I shall really think about this some more. Thank you so much.
.

kkbe said:

That's not my goal. I am thinking I would need an agent to navigate contract stuff, should an indie pub. make me an offer, being as I don't know squat about contracts and stuff.
.

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I don't quite understand your expected process. You don't plan to use an offer from an indie as a way to land an agent, but you think it's important that you have an agent before you sign with an indie. So...why are you querying indies when you don't have an agent? If one of them makes an offer, what do you plan to do?

kkbe said:

I was thinking, maybe erroneously, that because my list of queried indie publishers was so small, it wouldn't be a problem. There would still be a lot of publishers to which an agent might sub my novel. Am I wrong about that?

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There might be. But it could be that your agent knows an editor at a particular independent press who would be perfect for you and your book, but you have already submitted it to a different editor there, and so now that publisher won't consider your book.

If it matters, I'm confident of my query. It's been through query letter hell and back and I have faith in it, just as I have faith in the novel. But that novel is going to be a tough sell, I know that. I need to find. . .



I could write a different query don't want to misrepresent my book to anybody.

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Those request rates are very low, though, so it might be worth reconsidering your query.

If you're confident of your query then it could be you sent it to the wrong people, or made some other error in the way you sent it out.

I thought about what you're saying and I realized something: I'm querying both out of fear that nobody will, you know. Doing that instead of choosing one or the other because that's the route I want to take.

I shall really think about this some more. Thank you so much.
.

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It's better to be unpublished than published badly. Don't want publication so much that you'll take it at any price; and think about how much your book is worth to you. If you want the best for it, then take the time to get it. Wait if you need to. I know it's difficult, but it is worth it in the long run.

Capcha: So...why are you querying indies when you don't have an agent? If one of them makes an offer, what do you plan to do?

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Find an agent right quick. Piece of cake.

Old Hack: If you're confident of your query then it could be you sent it to the wrong people, or made some other error in the way you sent it out.

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I think it's a matter of finding the right person. Not so different from every other writer here.

Old Hack: It's better to be unpublished than published badly. Don't want publication so much that you'll take it at any price; and think about how much your book is worth to you. If you want the best for it, then take the time to get it. Wait if you need to. I know it's difficult, but it is worth it in the long run.

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Like I said, I've been querying for a while. A long while. Waiting wasn't a problem until I started realizing that agent pool was dwindling. Then a few folks over at QLH suggested I try indie publishers, find my niche there.

You're right, this is a difficult process sometimes. We all want to do what's right, relative to our work. All I can say is, tgf AW because this novel-selling business is tricky to navigate, esp. when you don't know where the hell you're going.

Heading there now.

Is there anything wrong with bad form?

Many people have written about bad form in sending to agents and indies at the same time. Seems to me that if you really want to get published you send send to anyone who might help. Why is it bad form to get the greatest advanatge you can especially since geting an agent is so damn hard.

It's bad form because if you've already queried a publisher, your agent can't re-query them. So you've prevented your agent from doing their job effectively.

Don't do it.