How simple/mundane can a plot be, before it bores you?

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Iustefan

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I want to talk about plots, and stakes, and simplicity.

How simple can a plot get, or how mundane can the subject matter be, before it bores you?

I hear lot's of talk about 'plotless' novels, what makes them feel plotless? When do they work, and when do they fail miserably? Are relatable characters enough? We all know these stories actually plotless, they just feel plotless based on expectations.

How far is too far, is a novel about a man contemplating life too far? Is it possible for the prose to bring this to life, with good characterization and writing and interesting observation, can a simple plot be compelling even to the average reader?

When have slow/simple/mundane plots worked for you? Can you think about why they worked, what made them interesting? What about the failures, what do you think made a plot feel 'plotless'?


As writers, in a way we should understand the expectations readers have, and not necessarily write towards them, but simply have them in mind. I want to start a discussion on simple plots, what can make them work, and when do they fail. What are readers looking for, how can we write for them while still writing for ourselves.
 

SomethingOrOther

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[...] how mundane can the subject matter be, before it bores you?

When have slow/simple/mundane plots worked for you? Can you think about why they worked, what made them interesting? What about the failures, what do you think made a plot feel 'plotless'?

Even with a nonexistent, simple, and/or mundane plot, you can still have lots of tension and conflict, stakes that keep the reader interested, and a deep story with round and interesting characters—counter-intuitively, you can even have a quick pace. And the most mundane details and subject matter can be interesting when they are mediated through unique perspectives.

How simple can a plot get [...] before it bores you?

This isn't what decides whether I'm bored or not. It's about tension/conflict/etc.—I'm bored by complex plots when there isn't a good amount of tension/conflict.

How far is too far, is a novel about a man contemplating life too far?

Are we talking about abstract musings bungling their way around the MC's labyrinth of navel lint, or an interesting and tension-filled story where this contemplation is grounded in concrete detail? (Rhetorical question.) There is no "too far." *cough* Waiting for Godot *cough*

Is it possible for the prose to bring this to life, with good characterization and writing and interesting observation, can a simple plot be compelling even to the average reader?
.

It isn't about the prose and characterization bringing the plot to life. Here, the characters are the life. :)
 
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Iustefan

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Are we talking about abstract musings swirling around the MC's labyrinth of navel lint, or an interesting and tension-filled story where this contemplation is grounded in concrete detail? (Rhetorical question.) There is no too far. *cough* Waiting for Godot *cough*

I was leaning more towards the navel lint side, than the tension-filled story. Tension is great, but perhaps lot's of tension would go against what this topic is after, I want even more simple. How would a story remove tension, and still be interesting? Of course not remove, but dampen(tension is always present in some way).

And perhaps not navel gazing, have you read Ryu Murakamis Almost Transparent Blue? It is kind of the 'simple' yet incredibly fascinating plot I am trying to get at. That is where a simple plot worked. I feel like what kept that novel so fascinating was the descriptions, and how they built emotion and nostalgia in the narrator. The story itself is just a few days of doing drugs, with minor tension in the background, and small conflicts, but it is still incredibly gripping and powerful.


This isn't what decides where I'm bored or not. (E.g., I'm bored by complex plots when there isn't a good amount of tension/conflict.)

Yes I agree. Complex plots bore me, but tension can turn me off also. I personally think tension is kind of an easy way to catch a readers interest, its a simple hook to create and its proven to work; it's like a 'relatable hero', we know it works and we know why it works so its not really that interesting to talk about(for me at least).

What I want to challenge you to do, is think of how an author could grip you in other ways, what would he or she have to trigger in you to keep you interested? Can mood hook you, or voice, or emotion? I want to make a reduction, and find the bare bones. Tension is one aspect, but there are ways to hold a reader even deeper I believe(if done well, if done wrong it can go horribly wrong).

It isn't about the prose and characterization bringing the plot to life. Here, the characters are the life.

Yes, but what if we create wonderful characters, with wonderful prose? And by prose I don't just mean tight syntax, I mean execution. I mean those moments of reflection where the author chooses the perfect mixture of description and thought that it creates an emotion the reader feels through the characters. And yes prose is timing as well, prose is good editing, and choosing what to say correctly and when. The characters are built over the story through situations and interactions, but strong prose is where the reader becomes hypnotized, the prose is holding all those interactions and situations together.
 

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One of the best books I've read in a while is Blackwater Lightship by Colm Toibin (spelling may have changed since I read it, a while is a while after all ;)

The plot is essentially tragedy brings dysfunctional family together for a couple of days, nothing much happens but book is awesome.
 

Shika Senbei

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How simple can a plot get, or how mundane can the subject matter be, before it bores you?

It's all about characters, characters, characters. It doesn't matter whether you situate them in space, the Middle Ages, a high school, a prison, a farm house or a metropolitan apartment; interesting characters with the right kind of chemistry will always hold my attention.
 

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For me, something has to be driving the story. I don't care that much what it is, but there has to be a reason to turn the page, to continue reading, to care about what happens next. I remember when I read The Children of Men, it was just this man wandering around a dystopia observing stuff. I was bored to death. He was miserable, everyone was miserable, miserable stuff was happening, but nothing was driving the story.

Then recently I gave up on Palimpsest because, although it was well written and had beautiful worldbuilding, again, there was nothing driving the story. Nothing to keep me turning the page. I didn't care whether I picked the book up or put it down. I can't say whether it had a simple or mundane plot; as far as I could see it had no plot at all.

Navel-gazing would be fine in the course of a plot with a goal and obstacles and conflict on top, or if I really really cared about the character.
 

astrodragon

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Personally I need characters and plot.
You can create the best character ever, but if all he does is inspect his navel-fluff for 200 pages don't expect me to read it.
Likewise if its a complex plot (which is good, I like complex), you still need some believable characters to move it around.

I've never quite believed the 'if you have wonderful characters nothing else matters' school. First because they all seem to love the navel-fluff-gazing, second because if thats all the characters do then I'm not going to find them wonderful.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think its a bit of both, characters and plot. You can be lighter on one if your better on the other, but you need both.
 

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plot rarely bores me before the writing does, barring major holes or implausibilities.
 

leahzero

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Interesting that there's no discussion of genre yet, when it has such a big influence on what we expect of plot.

Literary fiction is rife with essentially "plotless" books that are all about self-discovery, character dynamics, quiet insights, etc.
 

victoriakmartin

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I think that if you are going to skimp on plot, you need to really be good at something else and most of the time it's going to have to be the characters.

The best example I can think of is Catcher in the Rye which definitely is about nothing, but Holden Caulfield is such a strong character that it's still readable.

That said, I did give up on the book about 50 pages from the end because I was bored with it. But that's still a lot further than a book about nothing should be able to take me.
 

lorna_w

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It depends on the skill of the writer. In general, I would advise, "never write a literary plotless novel that is full of philosophical ideas written as thoughts of your narrator. Never, ever!" But one of the best books I've read in the past six years was Netherland which is often just that, but so insightful and well-crafted, it was a page-turner for me. And, worse, it had cricket it in! I don't think Brits can understand how little most Americans care about cricket. (however much you're guessing, halve that.) There are plots--two that I can recall--in there, but they aren't what made me keep reading. What a terrific book.

That is the outlier for me, though. Plenty of other lit novels sans plot that have been praised have been ones I've thrown across the room with great force. It's a rare writer can handle it well. And most people don't have terribly interesting insights, sorry to say. A lot of new writers think their undergraduate musings are deep philosophy that will wow me, and they are delusional on this point.

At their core, I suspect all good plots are simple. Boy meets girl, boy gets girl, boy loses girl: that's Romeo and Juliet, and I've read it many times, seen film versions many times, seen it on stage, and it never pales for me. That's not the only time it has been used. I read more mystery/suspense than anything else, and many of these novels have a plot of "a person is murdered and our professional or amateur detective finds out who and why, risking herself in the process and finding the murderer in the end." Most people reading in genres are drawn to the standard plots, whether that's the hero's journey, a love story, or the justice story. Even seemingly complicated plots are often a bunch of simple plots woven together with skill.

And yes, voice can carry me quite far. Perhaps not all the way through a book, but many pages before I wonder if anything interesting is going to happen.

We are still like our ancestors, sitting around the fire and wanting to be entertained or moved emotionally. Mostly, I ask of writers, "tell me a story, a good story with characters I care about."
 

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About ten years or so ago I read a script about a woman going to a nearby shop, made more difficult by the fact that she had agoraphobia - one of the tensest and most interesting things I have ever read. The plot? Largely irrelevant. If the writing surpasses the basic set-up, then there is room to get away with things you couldn't otherwise get away with.
 

gothicangel

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Simple doesn't have to mean boring. I've just finished reading The Song of Achilles. It's a simple love story, and one of the most amazing books I've read in a long time.

I then started to read Manda Scott's The Coming of the King. It is a sequel, and I have read the first book which was okay, but having read the first fifty pages I was bored to tears and won't be reading further.

The Manda Scott had the more complicated plot, but it was the literary novel that engaged me more.
 

Buffysquirrel

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And, worse, it had cricket it in! I don't think Brits can understand how little most Americans care about cricket. (however much you're guessing, halve that.)

I think we can understand it's comparable to how little we care about baseball.
 

Iustefan

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Simple doesn't have to mean boring.

Yes of course! And I am interested in getting to the bottom of it, why it works sometimes, and why it can often not work.
I've just finished reading The Song of Achilles. It's a simple love story, and one of the most amazing books I've read in a long time.

I then started to read Manda Scott's The Coming of the King. It is a sequel, and I have read the first book which was okay, but having read the first fifty pages I was bored to tears and won't be reading further.

Any further insight into why perhaps one worked and the other didn't?


About ten years or so ago I read a script about a woman going to a nearby shop, made more difficult by the fact that she had agoraphobia - one of the tensest and most interesting things I have ever read. The plot? Largely irrelevant. If the writing surpasses the basic set-up, then there is room to get away with things you couldn't otherwise get away with.

I am interested in where the script was going, film or stage? Was it mostly in the head of the woman, concerning her thoughts, or was it focused on her actions and the reactions of those around her? Is there any way to legally read this online?
 

BigWords

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I am interested in where the script was going, film or stage? Was it mostly in the head of the woman, concerning her thoughts, or was it focused on her actions and the reactions of those around her? Is there any way to legally read this online?

Comic script - I think it was one of David Quinn's scripts - don't quote me on that, as it has been a while since I last looked through the scripts I have. The copy I had was photocopied (at least third-generation copy by the time it hit my hands) and you might be able to get a copy at a convention... I've had a look in the usual places (the archive, for one) and it isn't up yet.
 

gothicangel

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Any further insight into why perhaps one worked and the other didn't?

That is a very hard question!

I'm not sure, but I think maybe Scott was trying a little too hard to 'hook' me trying to be exciting. Where Miller hooked me with her characters, the world, and I believed 100% in the love story.
 

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How simple can a plot get, or how mundane can the subject matter be, before it bores you?

First, if I consider it mundane or simple, it's already bored me. Likely, to the point of discarding the book.

I hear lot's of talk about 'plotless' novels, what makes them feel plotless?

The best example for this that I can think of is The Orchid Thief by Susan Orlean. (Or most of Jack Kerouac's work, but that's a different world entirely...). Living in the area and knowing the same characters described in the book, I enjoyed the descriptions in it. But there's no freakin' story!

So what makes it work? For me, I know the history, background and environment well. I live there. For others? I have no clue. It was adapted for film (Adaptation) and the movie is basically a writer trying to figure out how to convert a book that has no story into a movie script. So the movie does have a story, but it's the story of the screenwriter, not the book.

But I think this is really the fringe of fiction, for me at least. I like a story. Which kind of requires a plot. Plot-less, to me, means a textbook.

From the writer's side of me, I can't do plot-less fiction. My mind doesn't work that way. And as a writer, I can both admire and really question the works of Orlean, JD Salinger, Sylvia Plath and Kerouac. Even if I'm not that inclined to read them.

Jeff
 
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Raventongue

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It can be simple, mundane, ponderous, by-proxy, I don't care- if there's one important character I give a shit about, and there's something at stake for them, you can hold my interest. If I don't care about the character, no matter how many thrills per minute you may have or how big a deal the stakes might be, I will not read further.
 

M.Macabre

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I always thought cricket was croquet :/ Growing up, I was all, ''look at those silly people, pronouncing croquet wrong.'' My parents let it go on for years.

Anyways, the idea of how mundane a plot can be, or, err, as a writer might reflect, ''how much can I get away with?'' The answer is: everything and nothing. There has to be some driving force to a novel. If all of you have is plot, then you can get away with horrible writing. If you have characters that appeals to your demographic heavily, then you can get away with literary slaughter. It just depends on everything. I could read a novel about a man watching paint dry, but not if he's two-dimensional and the prose mimics the plot.
 

Iustefan

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I'm not sure, but I think maybe Scott was trying a little too hard to 'hook' me trying to be exciting. Where Miller hooked me with her characters, the world, and I believed 100% in the love story.

I think a simple love story, if focused on, can be a great hook--because we can all relate to a need for romance or love, or to be wanted or to want something in our lives. The author doesn't need to add embellishments, because we as readers already know the experience, and we will fill in the emotions.

I actually think the greatest writing works like this, less is more; if the author can find just the right notes to trigger feelings and emotions in the reading, I mean have the reader fill their own experiences into the story, it will make them more invested. They will be the readers emotion.

If the author adds too much embellishment, or gives too much away, than the emotion gets lost and muddled; it will no longer feel like the readers emotion.

Love stories do this frequently(and frequently do it miserably as well), as love is so universal.


First, if I consider it mundane or simple, it's already bored me. Likely, to the point of discarding the book.

I see what you are saying, but I think we mean different things from the books. I am talking about books which are simple, and which deal with the mundane. The emotions and feelings they bring to you however, should be complex and exciting.
 

rwm4768

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I like plot driven stories. Give me a little time to get to know the characters, then throw them through crazy adventures. When I read books with no plot, I get bored and usually only finish them if I have to for a class.
 
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