Writing for Men vs Women, Porn Vs Erotica

Cat Laurelle

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I'm curious, if my intent will be to write for men, will be submitting to all of the wrong agencies if I'm submitting to the plain erotica publishers? I mean does writing for men, mean it's classified instead as porn? And my stories are better going to be published as short stories in those sorts of magazines, like Playboy?
 

DiloKeith

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I'm curious, if my intent will be to write for men, will be submitting to all of the wrong agencies if I'm submitting to the plain erotica publishers? I mean does writing for men, mean it's classified instead as porn? And my stories are better going to be published as short stories in those sorts of magazines, like Playboy?

Regarding the bolded question - no. However, men usually want a different type of erotica and they're also happy with porn sometimes, probably more so than women. If you're writing erotica targeting men and not writing anything that resembles romance, you're not going to fit in with the huge number of erotica publishers that focus on erotic romance. Those are targeted at women. For heterosexual stories, there are probably some erotica publishers that would work. Those seem harder to find, but I haven't tried all that much because I write m/m. (I've raised similar questions in other posts.) Most sites have samples - you should be able to see if they offer your sort of story.
 

Maryn

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Sounds like you have homework to do--but don't worry, it's fun homework. Get two recent issues of Playboy and read the fiction. It's rarely erotica.

There are markets which seek and reach male readers, but they're fewer because men are more visual creatures in terms of sexuality. They'd rather see video than engage the theatre of the mind.

But this may be putting the cart before the horse. First you should write a story, set it aside a while, return with new eyes, revise and correct as needed, set it aside again, yada-yada-yada, and finally seek beta readers who know the genre, then seek a market for it. Knowing they exist means you won't be wasting your time.

Maryn, who doesn't market a lot of short stories
 

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When you say 'writing for men', what do you mean, exactly? What are the characteristics of your writing that make you think it will only appeal to men?
 

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As Maryn said, time for some research. Find out which men's magazines are looking for fiction and reader's letters and what the terms are. Pick up a couple of issues. Two that come to mind right away are Penthouse and Hustler. Each are specific in what they want.

From Hustler Fantasies:

Letters

Length: 700 to 1,200 words
Payment: $25 (upon printing)

Hot, fast-paced pornographic letters written in a first-person conversational, confessional style.
Thirteen categories: group, trio, oral, anal, kink, b&d, lesbian, voyeur, exhibition, older/younger, straight, phone sex and masturbation/sex toys.

Fiction

Length: 2,500 to 3,500 words
Payment: $100 (upon printing)

Well-written short stories or "true" experiences written in any style, category or voice. At least two explicit, torrid, steamy sex scenes. Emphasis on plot/storyline.
From Penthouse Variations:

Penthouse Variations publishes first-person narratives in the 3,000 to 3,500 word range, containing explicit sex scenes set within a specific category and placed within the context of a realistic plot with well-developed characters.
Another source would be xxx websites. Some have story sections and the submission guidelines would tell you what they are after and what the compensation is.

One person's porn is another's erotica. What may be too explicit for one isn't explicit enough for the other.
 

DiloKeith

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When you say 'writing for men', what do you mean, exactly? What are the characteristics of your writing that make you think it will only appeal to men?

I suspect the OP did not mean ONLY for men. There are plenty of very real differences that apply to men as a group, but not all men and not just men. For example, as Maryn said, they are more visual. They want more physical descriptions and the details matter more. It might be a matter of being specific, not explicit, but those are related. The gay men I've asked tell me this more often than the others, but I think men are men, regardless. Plus, many don't want or need the emotional elements often found in erotica.

Gay male erotica is one of my major influences and I've edited my stories to appeal more to female audiences. I've rewritten some to change the sex and orientation of characters. I think it helps to know the audience in advance, but getting something written is most important. Read as much as you can of what you'd like to write.
 
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I know those tendencies, Dilo, but I'm still curious about why the OP has chosen to classify her(?) writing that way, before apparently being aware of them herself. It's a much smaller market, so if she's choosing to write in it, I would assume that's because her writing tends in that direction and she doesn't want to fight it. Which would be fine, except she doesn't seem clear on exactly what that direction entails, so how does she know it's where she's going... it circles around confusingly, to me. So confusingly that I'm not sure if this response makes any sense whatsoever. Sorry.
 

Cat Laurelle

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I suspect the OP did not mean ONLY for men. There are plenty of very real differences that apply to men as a group, but not all men and not just men. For example, as Maryn said, they are more visual. They want more physical descriptions and the details matter more. It might be a matter of being specific, not explicit, but those are related. The gay men I've asked tell me this more often than the others, but I think men are men, regardless. Plus, many don't want or need the emotional elements often found in erotica.

Gay male erotica is one of my major influences and I've edited my stories to appeal more to female audiences. I've rewritten some to change the sex and orientation of characters. I think it helps to know the audience in advance, but getting something written is most important. Read as much as you can of what you'd like to write.

On the contrary, I meant only men. And I'm willing to write for sites, etc..that are truly considered porn. (I've always been incredibly curious about what men experience in bed, their POV, desires, etc...).

No I'm not too keen on building emotional elements or plot lines in this way. I'm doubling as a regency romance writer just finishing my first novel for that.
 

Cat Laurelle

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I know those tendencies, Dilo, but I'm still curious about why the OP has chosen to classify her(?) writing that way, before apparently being aware of them herself. It's a much smaller market, so if she's choosing to write in it, I would assume that's because her writing tends in that direction and she doesn't want to fight it. Which would be fine, except she doesn't seem clear on exactly what that direction entails, so how does she know it's where she's going... it circles around confusingly, to me. So confusingly that I'm not sure if this response makes any sense whatsoever. Sorry.

I'm just trying to decipher which sites/publishers are creating their stuff exclusively for men. I only have heard of one main site an x uses. Otherwise we have a physical magazine in the Portland area at least for Striping Ads., discussion of the stage adult entertainment industry.
But I'm not interested in returning to journalism and taking photos in this manner, however I could consider illustrating and making art with nudes as a photoshop artist. I have recently graduated from making freelance art-general subjects for stock photo sites and have started making the human female form. So I see I have ways to combine my work and perhaps make more money.
 

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I think the photos could absolutely appeal to men (although, depending on the subject matter, to women as well). But if you're looking to make money, I don't think focusing on WRITING for men is the way to do it. It's a small market.
 

Cat Laurelle

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As Maryn said, time for some research. Find out which men's magazines are looking for fiction and reader's letters and what the terms are. Pick up a couple of issues. Two that come to mind right away are Penthouse and Hustler. Each are specific in what they want.

From Hustler Fantasies:

From Penthouse Variations:

Another source would be xxx websites. Some have story sections and the submission guidelines would tell you what they are after and what the compensation is.

One person's porn is another's erotica. What may be too explicit for one isn't explicit enough for the other.

Yes, I need to get some dirty magazines. Must ask guy friends if they have free copies to borrow. LOL I'm a cheap skate, if I can get it free, I will find a way....... with anything!
 

Cat Laurelle

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I think the photos could absolutely appeal to men (although, depending on the subject matter, to women as well). But if you're looking to make money, I don't think focusing on WRITING for men is the way to do it. It's a small market.


I can theorize layman would be less likely statistically to read porn, or erotica, but my x, as a layman even HS drop out, chooses to do so. I do suspect most of my audience would have BA's an above in education.
 

DiloKeith

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On the contrary, I meant only men...


Okay, more clear now. I suppose I meant that women will be reading those publications, too. I would consider them primarily for men, not exclusively. But that doesn't really matter for this discussion.
 

DiloKeith

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Yes, I need to get some dirty magazines. Must ask guy friends if they have free copies to borrow. LOL I'm a cheap skate, if I can get it free, I will find a way....... with anything!

Most men I know say they get their material free online. Like others here said, they don't buy much written erotica/porn.
 

Cat Laurelle

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Okay, more clear now. I suppose I meant that women will be reading those publications, too. I would consider them primarily for men, not exclusively. But that doesn't really matter for this discussion.

Yes, I just saw a show on Hue Hefner(sp?) that mentioned when his daughter was taking the reigns of the company, a decent percentage of readers were female in their selling market.
 

Cat Laurelle

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Most men I know say they get their material free online. Like others here said, they don't buy much written erotica/porn.


My x spouse, I'm so sure he spent our hard earned money on it with our credit card! I made him take the bill with the divorce. This would be beautiful revenge to make money off of men this way, LOL.
 

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I'm curious, if my intent will be to write for men, will be submitting to all of the wrong agencies if I'm submitting to the plain erotica publishers? I mean does writing for men, mean it's classified instead as porn? And my stories are better going to be published as short stories in those sorts of magazines, like Playboy?

You can start a fight in any pervert bar by trying to distinguish porn and erotica. Here's my version, which has nothing to do with the gender of the readership:

Erotica is a plotted story, often in a different genre, like romance, scifi, or suspense, in which sex is an essential part of the story. IE, take away the sex, no story. Characterization rules. The degree of explicitness is irrelevant.

Porn is a series of sex scenes, possibly strung together by a weak plot, and often not strung together at all. It's often intended as masturbation fuel. The characters are stock and two-dimensional. Porn quickly becomes boring.
 

Cat Laurelle

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You can start a fight in any pervert bar by trying to distinguish porn and erotica. Here's my version, which has nothing to do with the gender of the readership:

>Porn quickly becomes boring.

I think it depends upon what you are using it for and how often...(snickering). I know it makes money.
 

Maryn

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I think it depends upon what you are using it for and how often...(snickering). I know it makes money.
No, it sounds specifically that you don't know the market. Yes, some written porn aimed at the males-only market exists. But do you know the pay rate, the acceptance rate, the submission guidelines? Not yet, apparently.

You need to be aware that small markets, porn or not, are likely to pay very poorly, as in "three free copies" or $5. For many people who write sexual material, that payment level is not worth the effort.

You don't need to mooch free copies to do this right. That's being unprofessional. You need to get yourself to an adult store and browse, jotting down publishers' names and titles. You need to browse online as well. You need to identify sites online which post or sell the sort of thing you want to write and pay their writers. You need to find writers' guidelines for any sites or publications you would consider the right market for your work.

It's a business, not all that different from freelance non-fiction in terms of marketing. The writing of the sort of stuff you're interested in is only half of it.

Maryn, telling The Don it was only business
 

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Porn is cheap, and the internet is full of all kinds of free. Check out Literotica. Free, badly written porn, but if all you want to do is get off, it'll do (for most). Why pay when you can get it free?

If you want to make money you're better off adding a bit of a plot, some kind of character development (which, from the erotica I've read isn't much of either, just a bit of angsting) and hawk it to "erotic romance" publishers.

I don't know anyone who pays the bills writing porn (acting, sure, writing, no), but I do know people who pay the bills with erotica.
 

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To steal one of my own stock phrases, "You're doing it wrong." :D

If I do it right, it's erotica.
icon12.gif
 

dangerousbill

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Porn is cheap, and the internet is full of all kinds of free. Check out Literotica. Free, badly written porn, but if all you want to do is get off, it'll do (for most). Why pay when you can get it free?

Literotica has a bad rap. Of course, there's crap there. But without an exhaustive search, you can find good, well-plotted stories, too.
 

Cat Laurelle

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Porn is cheap, and the internet is full of all kinds of free. Check out Literotica. Free, badly written porn, but if all you want to do is get off, it'll do (for most). Why pay when you can get it free?

If you want to make money you're better off adding a bit of a plot, some kind of character development (which, from the erotica I've read isn't much of either, just a bit of angsting) and hawk it to "erotic romance" publishers.

I don't know anyone who pays the bills writing porn (acting, sure, writing, no), but I do know people who pay the bills with erotica.


I'll think about all of this, thanks.
 
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Literotica has a bad rap. Of course, there's crap there. But without an exhaustive search, you can find good, well-plotted stories, too.
Literotica has a well-deserved bad rap. I've never seen anything good on that site.

Of course, some epublishers (most?) publish crap too, but you have a better chance of discovering something good there.

The stories on Literotica are free to read, and that's probably more than they're worth.