About QUILTBAG MCs in non-QUILTBAG fiction

Calliea · Jun 11, 2014

Hey guys,

The question has been on my mind for a while. When talking about mainstream fiction, aimed at no group in particular, do you believe that having non-hetero main characters is still something people cry about? I have yet to find a book or a TV show (that's not a sitcom), where the protagonist isn't straight. Especially when it comes to men, as lesbians always seemed to be less frowned upon by the mainstream.

I've watched and researched "Da Vinci's Demons" exactly to find out how they approached the subject, as I've heard they weren't going to "shy away" from the fact that he was a bisexual (or gay, as some sources say). But so far, he's just having a steamy romance with a woman going through entire season (and all the trailers) with a mention of him having relations with men in the past.

While they somewhat avoid falling into the: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButNotTooGay
by showing a kiss, that's all there was as far as I know (plot bored me, so I stopped watching and just researched further by reading on it).

Looking over the internet, including music videos, talk shows etc with comments underneath, it would seem that people are getting indeed much more tolerant. Token gay couples are present all over media nowadays. But that's it - token couples.

The only TV show I've seen so far featuring gay protagonists was actually:
a) cancelled
b) full of stereotyping
c) so over-sweet I go diabetes from watching it xD
(The New Normal)

I'm writing a novel with a bisexual protagonist. He's a 1st person PoV character, and I have other PoV characters not all of whom are straight.

It's a fantasy novel, plot-driven, where romances are integral part of character development, but far from the central issues.

I don't "put the light out", though I keep the erotic descriptions mildly detailed.

I wonder how much of an issue will that be, and what should I brace myself for. I don't want to bend to the standards. Also, I didn't plan on anyone's sexuality, it just happened by the way of their motivations and the plot.

Additionally, since it's a series, I also have one more "dilemma" - do I need to say point-blank somewhere what's what so that people don't get outraged later when it comes out? It just wasn't needed. It should not matter, but I'm afraid it might and I hate drama.

Not to mention, if I were to decide to try a traditional publishing route, I'm afraid someone might demand I change those things not to alienate the public. Do they do it?

Thanks.

Wilde_at_heart · Jun 11, 2014

I don't watch TV so I can't help you there, but get the story you want to write finished first before worrying about such a thing.

So long as you drop enough hints early on I doubt it would be too much trouble. If someone does get 'outraged' about such a thing later on, I figure that's their issue, not mine.

Calliea said:
I'm writing a novel with a bisexual protagonist, who is a 1st person PoV character, and I have other PoV characters not all of whom are straight.

It's a fantasy novel, plot-driven, where romances are integral part of character development, but far from the central issues.

I don't "put the light out", though I keep the erotic descriptions mildly detailed.

FWIW, This could just as easily describe one of my own WIPs, apart from the POV, since I stick to third...

Deleted member 42 · Jun 11, 2014

Queer characters aren't even an issue any more in SF/F books.

Write a good book with interesting and believable characters.

Calliea · Jun 11, 2014

Wilde_at_heart said:
I don't watch TV so I can't help you there, but get the story you want to write finished first before worrying about such a thing.

So long as you drop enough hints early on I doubt it would be too much trouble. If someone does get 'outraged' about such a thing later on, I figure that's their issue, not mine.

It's finished, I'm going through a final revision atm (around 1/5th or 1/6th left hurray!), then just one more aloud read-through to catch awkward sentences, lacking descriptions, repetitions etc

Hints are there, but they're subtle enough that it's possible to miss them if you're not expecting them, I suppose. Which most readers might not, in a regular fantasy novel. I wouldn't think twice of it if it weren't for the fact I'm talking about the protagonist

FWIW, This could just as easily describe one of my own WIPs, apart from the POV, since I stick to third...

Glad to hear there's more of us

Best of luck with it

Wilde_at_heart · Jun 11, 2014

Calliea said:
It's finished, I'm going through a final revision atm (around 1/5th or 1/6th left hurray!), then just one more aloud read-through to catch awkward sentences, lacking descriptions, repetitions etc

Hints are there, but they're subtle enough that it's possible to miss them if you're not expecting them, I suppose. Which most readers might not, in a regular fantasy novel. I wouldn't think twice of it if it weren't for the fact I'm talking about the protagonist

Glad to hear there's more of us Best of luck with it

Thanks - and good luck to you too!

FWIW, back in 1975 Samuel R. Delany published a novel called Dhalgren. I read it much, much later of course, but halfway through (or even further in, I'm not sure) is a very graphic MMF three-way, mentioning what got put where.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhalgren

I'm too young to have any idea whether or not it was controversial at the time - it probably was - but it didn't stop it from getting published or considered by others, a 'classic'.

MynaOphelia · Jun 11, 2014

Here in the South, people tried to pull Harry Potter because it was "endorsing witchcraft." There will always be wacky conservatives trying to limit what people read. The good news is that definitely won't stop kids from reading your book. If the parents don't like it, the kid will definitely read it, haha.

Don't worry too much about it though. LGBT+ protagonists are starting to get more limelight what with the push for diversity ^.^

I'm not sure what you mean by say point blank what's what. I'd encourage you to say your protag is bisexual, or likes more than one gender, upfront (as in somewhere in the novel, you probably don't need it in the blurb), though. This is not because I want you to "warn" readers, but that if your char is dating someone of their gender, readers will default to gay and won't think the char is bi. They'll default to straight if the char is dating someone of another gender. Bisexual people deserve more visibility so you might as well say it somewhere.

Little Ming · Jun 11, 2014

Medievalist said:
Queer characters aren't even an issue any more in SF/F books.

Write a good book with interesting and believable characters.

I've been reading more SF/F short stories lately and I'm surprised how many non-hetero, non-cis characters there are.

Teh GAYS are everywhere!

Calliea · Jun 11, 2014

MynaOphelia said:
Here in the South, people tried to pull Harry Potter because it was "endorsing witchcraft." There will always be wacky conservatives trying to limit what people read. The good news is that definitely won't stop kids from reading your book. If the parents don't like it, the kid will definitely read it, haha.

Don't worry too much about it though. LGBT+ protagonists are starting to get more limelight what with the push for diversity ^.^

I'm not sure what you mean by say point blank what's what. I'd encourage you to say your protag is bisexual, or likes more than one gender, upfront (as in somewhere in the novel, you probably don't need it in the blurb), though. This is not because I want you to "warn" readers, but that if your char is dating someone of their gender, readers will default to gay and won't think the char is bi. They'll default to straight if the char is dating someone of another gender. Bisexual people deserve more visibility so you might as well say it somewhere.

Hah, yes, I've heard about those witchcraft allegations. It's pure absurd. One could think it was a story about friendship and fighting evil, but I suppose not

Well I'm afraid my book won't be kid-friendly, because of generally being aimed at adults, but I still remember being a kid and wanting the most kid-unfriendly things I could find (mostly in my parents' secret boxes) so who knows

He's not dating anyone, but due to the way the place he lives in works, he doesn't think much of the possibility of dating men. It's not an acceptable thing, though there are bits that hint on the fact he wouldn't mind it either way. The novel isn't set in one of those liberal fantasy worlds, so it's still an issue there (as is everything that's not the perceived norm, but that prohibition doesn't take central point when it comes to the homosexual relationships, it's not a book about that). I'll think about hinting it stronger in ways that are available though, first PoV gives plenty of chances

MynaOphelia · Jun 11, 2014

Calliea said:
Hah, yes, I've heard about those witchcraft allegations. It's pure absurd. One could think it was a story about friendship and fighting evil, but I suppose not

Well I'm afraid my book won't be kid-friendly, because of generally being aimed at adults, but I still remember being a kid and wanting the most kid-unfriendly things I could find (mostly in my parents' secret boxes) so who knows

He's not dating anyone, but due to the way the place he lives in works, he doesn't think much of the possibility of dating men. It's not an acceptable thing, though there are bits that hint on the fact he wouldn't mind it either way. The novel isn't set in one of those liberal fantasy worlds, so it's still an issue there (as is everything that's not the perceived norm, but that prohibition doesn't take central point when it comes to the homosexual relationships, it's not a book about that). I'll think about hinting it stronger in ways that are available though, first PoV gives plenty of chances

If he's sexually attracted to men he might still mention it though, more than just hinting that he wouldn't mind it either way. If he's thinking about his future, maybe he considers the possibility of marrying a guy, but also knows he'd be happy with a girl, it just has to be the right person regardless of gender. That would be more than enough, I think.

It's totally fine if the novel is set in a society where same-gender relationships are frowned upon, which would make him more likely to hide his orientation from other characters. But he can still tell us because he's the POV char, like you said : )

Happy writing ^.^ I'm always happy to see some bisexual representation, they always seem to get excluded...

Calliea · Jun 11, 2014

MynaOphelia said:
If he's sexually attracted to men he might still mention it though, more than just hinting that he wouldn't mind it either way. If he's thinking about his future, maybe he considers the possibility of marrying a guy, but also knows he'd be happy with a girl, it just has to be the right person regardless of gender. That would be more than enough, I think.

It's totally fine if the novel is set in a society where same-gender relationships are frowned upon, which would make him more likely to hide his orientation from other characters. But he can still tell us because he's the POV char, like you said : )

Happy writing ^.^ I'm always happy to see some bisexual representation, they always seem to get excluded...

I know, right? I'm going to make sure it doesn't get into the "switched, so switched for good" point either. I'm not writing any sort of 'message' fantasy, far, far from that, but it's one thing people seem to point out happens quite often. Starts "straight bi" ends "gay bi" (or the other way around). What is that even?

Having read some bisexual tropes I also had a laugh at depraved bisexuals and slutty bisexuals as the only kinds there are

MynaOphelia · Jun 11, 2014

Calliea said:
I know, right? I'm going to make sure it doesn't get into the "switched, so switched for good" point either. I'm not writing any sort of 'message' fantasy, far, far from that, but it's one thing people seem to point out happens quite often. Starts "straight bi" ends "gay bi" (or the other way around). What is that even?

Having read some bisexual tropes I also had a laugh at depraved bisexuals and slutty bisexuals as the only kinds there are

TVTropes is awesomeee for finding out what stereotypes to avoid about different groups of people. I agree, it's kind of hilarious that people think that all bisexuals are hardcore players because... what? They have more than one gender to choose from? I feel like straight people (and some gay and lesbian people too) are like, "Well, they're attracted to more than one gender, so they have twice as much game! It's science!"

It's kind of sad though one of my straight friends has a bi guy as a side character and she somehow managed to make him both a depraved bisexual AND a slutty bisexual and I'm not sure how to tell her. Sighhh.

Calliea · Jun 11, 2014

MynaOphelia said:
TVTropes is awesomeee for finding out what stereotypes to avoid about different groups of people. I agree, it's kind of hilarious that people think that all bisexuals are hardcore players because... what? They have more than one gender to choose from? I feel like straight people (and some gay and lesbian people too) are like, "Well, they're attracted to more than one gender, so they have twice as much game! It's science!"

It's kind of sad though one of my straight friends has a bi guy as a side character and she somehow managed to make him both a depraved bisexual AND a slutty bisexual and I'm not sure how to tell her. Sighhh.

They are awesome period, I try to avoid the site or somehow I lose several hours before I know what hit me

Yeah, it's like saying every attractive person is a slut, because they get more options than some others. More options = must have them all.

Well, that's skill

You can tell her in a joke, show her the TV tropes, or just let it be and snicker when nobody's looking

MynaOphelia · Jun 11, 2014

Calliea said:
They are awesome period, I try to avoid the site or somehow I lose several hours before I know what hit me

As they say, TVTropes will ruin your life. : P

Calliea said:
Yeah, it's like saying every attractive person is a slut, because they get more options than some others. More options = must have them all.

And as they say in Pokemon, gotta catch em all!

Calliea said:
Well, that's skill You can tell her in a joke, show her the TV tropes, or just let it be and snicker when nobody's looking

xD I'll probably show her TVTropes or something once she's done with the draft haha.

J.S.F. · Jun 12, 2014

What was said before about writing a believable character. I have one novel out now--Twisted--which deals with a gender switch and the issues about same-sex relationships, and one coming out (no pun intended) this month (Lindsay Versus the Marauders--see avi) where the MC is a lesbian.

In both cases, the sexual orientation is there, no surprises, no "gasp, but you're gay" kinda deal. They are what they are. With both novels, the emphasis is on action with a romantic subplot. I was more interested in building well-rounded characters who happened to be gay as opposed to writing about a gay character. I think all writers should worry over the people they write about first and forget about the orientation.

Corinne Duyvis · Jun 12, 2014

There's quite a bunch of books with queer protagonists where it's not an issue or the main focus. You may face some opposition, and you may face people asking you to change your character's orientation. But you may also find the right people and get it published without a hitch. I got my book (see signature--bisexual protagonist) published without my agent or editor so much as mentioning the queer aspects of the book. So, yeah, don't worry about it too much at this stage.

Roxxsmom · Jun 12, 2014

I can think of several SF and F books I've read with characters who are gay, lesbian or bisexual that are not issue books. I certainly wouldn't bat an eye. One of the three pov characters in my current fantasy project is gay.

JohnnyGottaKeyboard · Jun 13, 2014

Roxxsmom said:
I can think of several SF and F books I've read with characters who are gay, lesbian or bisexual that are not issue books.

I've heard about these but never actually read any of them. Of course, most of my fantasy reading was a while ago. The only one I can even recall that had a gay character in the lead was the Herald Mage series. And I would certainly not characterize that as his homosexuality not being an issue. It was a HUGE issue.

I think I might like to read a fantasy story with a non-heterosexual lead character where no body made an issue of it.

Roxxsmom · Jun 13, 2014

JohnnyGottaKeyboard said:
I've heard about these but never actually read any of them. Of course, most of my fantasy reading was a while ago. The only one I can even recall that had a gay character in the lead was the Herald Mage series. And I would certainly not characterize that as his homosexuality not being an issue. It was a HUGE issue.

I think I might like to read a fantasy story with a non-heterosexual lead character where no body made an issue of it.

The Nightrunner series by Lynn Flewelling come to mind. I like it. though I've run across some complaints because Seregil likes to dress sharp (though Alex, his partner, is more down to earth).

http://www.autostraddle.com/top-ten...en-to-have-gay-people-in-them-authors-110616/

http://sunshineandbones.blogspot.com/2011/06/10-books-featuring-lgbt-protagonists.html

and this one has ratings and short descriptions

http://booklist.rassaku.net/

Here's a longer list, though I can't vouch for most of the books on it.

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/3948.Best_Fantasy_Books_with_Gay_Main_Characters

(the last Herald Mage series always seems to end up on these lists, but it employs the tragic gay hero trope, which many people find cliched and tedious these days. And yeah, his being gay was an issue, at least until he went off to be a herald. To be fair, Lackey intended for Vanyel to be a self-sacrificing hero with an unhappy childhood, as that's a common theme in her Herald books, and likely would have written him that way had he been straight too).

Little Ming · Jun 13, 2014

JohnnyGottaKeyboard said:
I've heard about these but never actually read any of them. Of course, most of my fantasy reading was a while ago. The only one I can even recall that had a gay character in the lead was the Herald Mage series. And I would certainly not characterize that as his homosexuality not being an issue. It was a HUGE issue.

I think I might like to read a fantasy story with a non-heterosexual lead character where no body made an issue of it.

For short stories, try Strange Horizons and Daily Science Fiction.

Here are some recent stories:

http://www.strangehorizons.com/2013/20131021/eventhorizon-f.shtml

http://www.strangehorizons.com/2014/20140519/Sheldon-f.shtml

http://dailysciencefiction.com/science-fiction/disaster-apocalypse/dave-beynon/the-last-repairman

http://dailysciencefiction.com/fantasy/religious/getty-hesse/death-and-his-lover

http://dailysciencefiction.com/science-fiction/biotech/rahul-kanakia/because-my-heart-is-pure

ETA: Does anyone remember the DSF story, recently (I think?), where the LI was bi-gender (or pan-gender)? The story was about something living in the MC's closet...

KimJo · Jun 14, 2014

Some of my YA fiction has gay or bisexual characters who just are gay or bisexual, it isn't the focus of the story. I've had readers thank me for doing that because they're tired of *only* seeing "coming out" stories in YA. Fortunately, a wider range of options is available and becoming more so all the time.

My books include some urban fantasy (one is about a boy who's kicked out of his house for having psychic powers) and some contemporary (one about a boy whose mother abandons him and his autistic younger sister for a guy she's been having an affair with). In the first book I mention, the main character is transgender, but that only factors into the plot because for his own safety he tries to make sure no one discovers that he's still physically female; in the second, the MC is gay, and his budding romance with another boy is a subplot but not the major part of the story.

I think it's good to have stories and books with character of varying sexualities and gender identities, because that's how reality is. And in reality, people's lives aren't necessarily all about their sexuality or gender identity, they're also about jobs and friendships and going on trips or going on quests or whatever. So in my opinion, that should be reflected in fiction, whether it's SF/F or contemporary or whatever.

Calliea · Jun 18, 2014

My friend linked me to a blog article today that fits the topic: http://blogs.publishersweekly.com/blogs/genreville/?p=1519

It's from 3 years back, I wonder, have things changed in YA?

MynaOphelia · Jun 18, 2014

Calliea said:
My friend linked me to a blog article today that fits the topic: http://blogs.publishersweekly.com/blogs/genreville/?p=1519

It's from 3 years back, I wonder, have things changed in YA?

Obviously things aren't perfect, but I think they're improving (on all matters of representation, including race and disability as well as sexual orientation.) Otherbound just came out with a massively diverse cast, and it is having a really good reception despite only being released like two days ago.

There's obviously still agents who want to whitewash and... hetero-wash? I don't know. Who want to turn all the casts white and straight. But they're more of a minority now than before.

Jerboa · Jun 26, 2014

Calliea said:
I have yet to find a book or a TV show (that's not a sitcom), where the protagonist isn't straight.

Not sure whereabouts you're from, so you might not get this TV show, but as everybody else has the book stuff covered, I thought I'd recommend a TV show: Hollyoaks. It's brilliant at representing LGBT characters.

(Does Queer as Folk count as a sitcom? Not a fan of the US version, but I loved the original UK one).

thwaitesyellow · Jun 26, 2014

For non-sitcom TV show recs, try Torchwood, especially if you're a Doctor Who fan. Captain Jack sort of defies sexual orientation labels.

Heathertruett · Jun 29, 2014

Calliea said:
Hey guys,

I'm writing a novel with a bisexual protagonist. He's a 1st person PoV character, and I have other PoV characters not all of whom are straight.

It's a fantasy novel, plot-driven, where romances are integral part of character development, but far from the central issues.

I don't "put the light out", though I keep the erotic descriptions mildly detailed.

Thanks.

This reminds me of Mercedes Lackey's Magic's Pawn trilogy. It's wonderful. I think you will be fine.

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