Re: Submitting even if novel not finished
Okay, Jim...time to 'fess up. Where the heck can you get a double shot mocha latte' for only $2.50???
Okay, Jim...time to 'fess up. Where the heck can you get a double shot mocha latte' for only $2.50???
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Latte
Y'see, Liam, when you're a best seller you can get a double shot mocha latte for only $2.50.
Another reason to write that book....
Y'see, Liam, when you're a best seller you can get a double shot mocha latte for only $2.50.
Another reason to write that book....
Re: Submitting even if novel not finished
Now, how did I know you'd come back around to that? Nicely done, JM.
Now, how did I know you'd come back around to that? Nicely done, JM.
Feedback
Whew! Thanks for the recap, Uncle Jim.
I have a question about your comments regarding feedback... so I'm doing my BIC, words spooling out of me, but without feedback they may stink to high heaven. So I need real feedback (not from my beta readers, who are all supportive).
What is the best source of feedback? Of course, my first choice would be a conference like yours, but are there other options that don't involve long-distance travel, expenses, or babysitters for my children?
What is your opinion of online critiques, like the Absolute Write or Critters.org? (I have a silly confession, I find it really hard to read long blocks of text online, so I haven't critiqued any of the stories on Absolute Write).
Thanks everyone for the input!
Whew! Thanks for the recap, Uncle Jim.
I have a question about your comments regarding feedback... so I'm doing my BIC, words spooling out of me, but without feedback they may stink to high heaven. So I need real feedback (not from my beta readers, who are all supportive).
What is the best source of feedback? Of course, my first choice would be a conference like yours, but are there other options that don't involve long-distance travel, expenses, or babysitters for my children?
What is your opinion of online critiques, like the Absolute Write or Critters.org? (I have a silly confession, I find it really hard to read long blocks of text online, so I haven't critiqued any of the stories on Absolute Write).
Thanks everyone for the input!
Re: Feedback
Critters is a pretty good group by all accounts.
You could also ask your local librarian if there are any off-line workshops around. Librarians tend to know that sort of thing.
Workshops aren't for everyone, but you might give it a try.
Find new beta readers -- ones who are willing to tear you apart.
Develop your own critical instincts, too. Look at your writing carefully.
And -- you know something? I can't read long blocks of text on screen either. I print stuff out double-spaced, work on it in hard copy, then comment on-line, when I do that sort of thing.
Critters is a pretty good group by all accounts.
You could also ask your local librarian if there are any off-line workshops around. Librarians tend to know that sort of thing.
Workshops aren't for everyone, but you might give it a try.
Find new beta readers -- ones who are willing to tear you apart.
Develop your own critical instincts, too. Look at your writing carefully.
And -- you know something? I can't read long blocks of text on screen either. I print stuff out double-spaced, work on it in hard copy, then comment on-line, when I do that sort of thing.
Re: Latte
You shouldn't pick beta readers who would only give you positive feedbacks and support. You need betas who will be honest with you if the book stinks.
You shouldn't pick beta readers who would only give you positive feedbacks and support. You need betas who will be honest with you if the book stinks.
Titles
I've been toying with a few titles, all of which are subtle, leaving the reader to decide the meaning as he/she reads the book.
I realize the title is secondary to the quality of the writing/book itself, but I need to ask:
1) should the title appear or be explained in the book or is a subtle/vague title appropriate?
2) do agents/publishers often stop at the title, make a judgment based on the title alone and pass on the m/s without ever reading anything from the m/s?
Thank you.
I've been toying with a few titles, all of which are subtle, leaving the reader to decide the meaning as he/she reads the book.
I realize the title is secondary to the quality of the writing/book itself, but I need to ask:
1) should the title appear or be explained in the book or is a subtle/vague title appropriate?
2) do agents/publishers often stop at the title, make a judgment based on the title alone and pass on the m/s without ever reading anything from the m/s?
Thank you.
Titling
Julie, this is one of the things I also wanted to address.
However, I was more interested in how people develop their titles? Do you like to title right away, wait until the book is finished, take a line from the book, make up something completely original.. etc... I myself am terrible at them.
A friend of mine isn't a fan of making the title something already out of the book. As he put it, the title is a way of adding more story to your work.
Julie, this is one of the things I also wanted to address.
However, I was more interested in how people develop their titles? Do you like to title right away, wait until the book is finished, take a line from the book, make up something completely original.. etc... I myself am terrible at them.
A friend of mine isn't a fan of making the title something already out of the book. As he put it, the title is a way of adding more story to your work.
Re: Feedback
Not unless it the title of another well-known novel. :grin One thing that editors are well-know for is changing the title, though.
Not unless it the title of another well-known novel. :grin One thing that editors are well-know for is changing the title, though.
Red Harvest
Hey Uncle Jim,
Some time back (and some time recently) you recommended Red Harvest, by Hammett as an example of plot and lifting plot. Well, I read it a while ago and was hoping you would expound, and we could have a discussion.
May I suggest that whoever wants to read it and we can have a discussion on it in a week or so? It can either be discussed here or in a thread on plot and D. Hammett, led by you? What say you, Uncle Jim? Or feel free to ramble on it a bit now...
Lisa
Hey Uncle Jim,
Some time back (and some time recently) you recommended Red Harvest, by Hammett as an example of plot and lifting plot. Well, I read it a while ago and was hoping you would expound, and we could have a discussion.
May I suggest that whoever wants to read it and we can have a discussion on it in a week or so? It can either be discussed here or in a thread on plot and D. Hammett, led by you? What say you, Uncle Jim? Or feel free to ramble on it a bit now...
Lisa
Re: Titles
Okay: Titles.
I've been thinking of creating an Authors' Title Generator, which would run on your computer, and which I could sell to aspiring authors for $449.95 (plus tax). It would come in a very attractive box.
What it would do would be ask you a number of questions about your book, then ... you click on the "Title" button and it ignores what you just typed in. It just prints out a random line from Hamlet. (Coleridge, and the various Restoration poets also give good title.)
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Either a title will come to you, or one won't. The editor is going to change the title anyway, so this doesn't matter much.
If the editor is discarding manuscripts based on the title alone ... I pity da fool. His loss.
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On Red Harvest, sure, we can have a discussion. (Probably in its own thread. Is this the best board for it?)
Okay: Titles.
I've been thinking of creating an Authors' Title Generator, which would run on your computer, and which I could sell to aspiring authors for $449.95 (plus tax). It would come in a very attractive box.
What it would do would be ask you a number of questions about your book, then ... you click on the "Title" button and it ignores what you just typed in. It just prints out a random line from Hamlet. (Coleridge, and the various Restoration poets also give good title.)
===
Either a title will come to you, or one won't. The editor is going to change the title anyway, so this doesn't matter much.
If the editor is discarding manuscripts based on the title alone ... I pity da fool. His loss.
===
On Red Harvest, sure, we can have a discussion. (Probably in its own thread. Is this the best board for it?)
Re: Titling
Okay. So does that mean you can submit an ms without a title - and it will still go over well?
Okay. So does that mean you can submit an ms without a title - and it will still go over well?
Re: Feedback
You should always provide a title, even if it's only a working tittle. Otherwise, the editor/agent would think: hey, the author doesn't even know! Call it "John Smith's Story" if you like, but give it a title when you submit. If nothing else, the editor needs something to identify your ms apart from the others.
I always have a working title right off the start, usually it's based on the theme of the book... then during the course of writing it, I'd change the title a few times... eventually it would "come to me."
You should always provide a title, even if it's only a working tittle. Otherwise, the editor/agent would think: hey, the author doesn't even know! Call it "John Smith's Story" if you like, but give it a title when you submit. If nothing else, the editor needs something to identify your ms apart from the others.
I always have a working title right off the start, usually it's based on the theme of the book... then during the course of writing it, I'd change the title a few times... eventually it would "come to me."
Re: Titling
So does that mean you can submit an ms without a title - and it will still go over well?
Nah, it means that you'll just have to slap a few words at the top of the manuscript so you'll have something to put in the running header.
Free titles:
More Native to the Heart
My Virtue or My Plague
No Wind of Blame
What I Do to the Grass
An Erring Lace
Caverns Measureless
This League of Blood
So does that mean you can submit an ms without a title - and it will still go over well?
Nah, it means that you'll just have to slap a few words at the top of the manuscript so you'll have something to put in the running header.
Free titles:
More Native to the Heart
My Virtue or My Plague
No Wind of Blame
What I Do to the Grass
An Erring Lace
Caverns Measureless
This League of Blood
Re: Titles
I think I'm going to have to write a random title generator web page now. Probably with a drop-down box for genre, so that it can choose appropriate words
I think I'm going to have to write a random title generator web page now. Probably with a drop-down box for genre, so that it can choose appropriate words
Titles
Macalicious731,
I choose a working title right away, usually after the initial concept comes to mind. I do everything on a PC, so it's important that my ideas for any one book are grouped and maintained separately from others from the start. The best way of identifying that book then, is by the folder, to which I've applied the book's title.
As for as how I derive a title, I think about the major theme, focus, or conflict in the book and generally I take the first half-decent title which comes to mind and go with it, as a working title. I know changing the title is easy enough later on (both for my folder name and the chapters' heaaders) as the book forms, but I do want some title in place from the time I start my first files (character backgrounds, outline, customs, etc).
I ask my beta readers if the title was appropriate, etc as well.
I hope this helps.
I find it interesting, but not surprising, that the editors often change the titles.
Macalicious731,
I choose a working title right away, usually after the initial concept comes to mind. I do everything on a PC, so it's important that my ideas for any one book are grouped and maintained separately from others from the start. The best way of identifying that book then, is by the folder, to which I've applied the book's title.
As for as how I derive a title, I think about the major theme, focus, or conflict in the book and generally I take the first half-decent title which comes to mind and go with it, as a working title. I know changing the title is easy enough later on (both for my folder name and the chapters' heaaders) as the book forms, but I do want some title in place from the time I start my first files (character backgrounds, outline, customs, etc).
I ask my beta readers if the title was appropriate, etc as well.
I hope this helps.
I find it interesting, but not surprising, that the editors often change the titles.
Re: Titles....
A good title is important in that it can encourage a browser in a bookstore to pick your book off the shelf, but while you're writing the book, I wouldn't get too worried about it. Something will occur to you along the way, and like Uncle Jim says, an editor might want to change it.
Get the story down, and if a brilliant title like "The Grapes of Wrath" occurs to you, then great! However, I like to keep in mind that a fabulous title is worthless without a fabulous book between the covers. It's the book that gives the title meaning.
A good title is important in that it can encourage a browser in a bookstore to pick your book off the shelf, but while you're writing the book, I wouldn't get too worried about it. Something will occur to you along the way, and like Uncle Jim says, an editor might want to change it.
Get the story down, and if a brilliant title like "The Grapes of Wrath" occurs to you, then great! However, I like to keep in mind that a fabulous title is worthless without a fabulous book between the covers. It's the book that gives the title meaning.
Re: Titles
Quote:
What it would do would be ask you a number of questions about your book, then ... you click on the "Title" button and it ignores what you just typed in. It just prints out a random line from Hamlet. (Coleridge, and the various Restoration poets also give good title.)
The bible also gives good titles, if you know where to look. But if you want to use Shakespeare, Coleridge, the bible or poets to generate a title, then you're going to have to read them...
As to titles: I started writing my novel under the rather boring title of "High Queen of the Elves," which was good enough for me at the time. My beta readers weren't given a title, and neither asked for nor suggested one.
Now that I know what the novel is about, and that there will be two more to finish the complete series, I have two possible titles. The first, "A Time to Seek," comes from Ecclesiastes. The second is "Y-Manit," which is the title of the main character in the book (elvish equivalent of empress).
My question to Uncle Jim is this: I read in a writing book that when choosing a title, one should not use "made up" words. However, I've also read Steven Brust's books: "Jhereg," "Yendi," etc. He obviously doesn't agree with this particular author. What is your take on this? Is it a more acceptable practice in fantasy than other genres, or should I stick with the biblical title when submitting the ms.?
Ruth
Quote:
What it would do would be ask you a number of questions about your book, then ... you click on the "Title" button and it ignores what you just typed in. It just prints out a random line from Hamlet. (Coleridge, and the various Restoration poets also give good title.)
The bible also gives good titles, if you know where to look. But if you want to use Shakespeare, Coleridge, the bible or poets to generate a title, then you're going to have to read them...
As to titles: I started writing my novel under the rather boring title of "High Queen of the Elves," which was good enough for me at the time. My beta readers weren't given a title, and neither asked for nor suggested one.
Now that I know what the novel is about, and that there will be two more to finish the complete series, I have two possible titles. The first, "A Time to Seek," comes from Ecclesiastes. The second is "Y-Manit," which is the title of the main character in the book (elvish equivalent of empress).
My question to Uncle Jim is this: I read in a writing book that when choosing a title, one should not use "made up" words. However, I've also read Steven Brust's books: "Jhereg," "Yendi," etc. He obviously doesn't agree with this particular author. What is your take on this? Is it a more acceptable practice in fantasy than other genres, or should I stick with the biblical title when submitting the ms.?
Ruth
Re: Titles
A title should be:
1) Easy to spell, and
2) Not embarassing to say out loud.
Beyond that, make it something meaningful to you. Or not.
A title should be:
1) Easy to spell, and
2) Not embarassing to say out loud.
Beyond that, make it something meaningful to you. Or not.
Re: Titles
I can't imagine finishing a book wihtout a title. while i don't have titles for my books or stories when i start them, or sometimes for several chapters in, i find the title is a crucial part of the book for me to undertsn it. it sets the tone both for the readers, and, (to me) the author. i need the title first so i can write the book wiht the right tone and theme, and slapping a title on at the end seem likely to generate a title that is poorly matched to a book. maybe you all can, but for me it's like writing a character without a name.
for instance, here are sveral titles that could all apply to my book. (some of them are the titles of other books)
The Shivered Sky
The Angel's War
The Children of Zelos
Fallen Angel
Catsle in the Clouds
The Ivory Tower
Angels and Demons
The War in Heaven
Freedom
Transformation (my first working title)
Flawed Creation
now, look at each of these titles and think for a minute about what the book might be. each one suggests slightly different themes, tones, even story events. if you started to wite a story to go wiht the name, you'd get very different results.
the title has an impact on the way your book is perceived, and the book has to match the title.
P.S
my book is actually called "Flawed Creation".
I can't imagine finishing a book wihtout a title. while i don't have titles for my books or stories when i start them, or sometimes for several chapters in, i find the title is a crucial part of the book for me to undertsn it. it sets the tone both for the readers, and, (to me) the author. i need the title first so i can write the book wiht the right tone and theme, and slapping a title on at the end seem likely to generate a title that is poorly matched to a book. maybe you all can, but for me it's like writing a character without a name.
for instance, here are sveral titles that could all apply to my book. (some of them are the titles of other books)
The Shivered Sky
The Angel's War
The Children of Zelos
Fallen Angel
Catsle in the Clouds
The Ivory Tower
Angels and Demons
The War in Heaven
Freedom
Transformation (my first working title)
Flawed Creation
now, look at each of these titles and think for a minute about what the book might be. each one suggests slightly different themes, tones, even story events. if you started to wite a story to go wiht the name, you'd get very different results.
the title has an impact on the way your book is perceived, and the book has to match the title.
P.S
my book is actually called "Flawed Creation".
Re: Titles
Am I the only one who hated "Grapes of Wrath"? Dunno... it just never clicked. On the other hand, I absolutely love "Of Mice and Men"... so it's nothing against Steinbeck.
Strange, though, how one novel can be in my top ten and the second another one I wished I never had to read. It's been awhile, though, maybe in a couple of years I'll give it another shot.
Am I the only one who hated "Grapes of Wrath"? Dunno... it just never clicked. On the other hand, I absolutely love "Of Mice and Men"... so it's nothing against Steinbeck.
Strange, though, how one novel can be in my top ten and the second another one I wished I never had to read. It's been awhile, though, maybe in a couple of years I'll give it another shot.
synopsis
When an editor/agent asks for a synopsis what do they want? Do they want the sort of thing that appears on a book's jacket or do they want something more detailed, like say a chapter by chapter breakdown?
And yes, before you ask, I am finished writing the MS. That's revised, revised again, revised again, Beta read, revised and sitting in two MS boxes with cover letters and the adresses of the first agent and house to get a copy. I just need the synopsis.
When an editor/agent asks for a synopsis what do they want? Do they want the sort of thing that appears on a book's jacket or do they want something more detailed, like say a chapter by chapter breakdown?
And yes, before you ask, I am finished writing the MS. That's revised, revised again, revised again, Beta read, revised and sitting in two MS boxes with cover letters and the adresses of the first agent and house to get a copy. I just need the synopsis.
Re: synopsis
The editor is expecting around 5,000 words of active prose, single spaced, present tense, that tells the complete plot of the book with the major characters and major plot points fully laid out, including the surprise ending.
Think of someone telling his pal about a moive he saw last night. That's the sort of level of detail that you're going for.
The editor is expecting around 5,000 words of active prose, single spaced, present tense, that tells the complete plot of the book with the major characters and major plot points fully laid out, including the surprise ending.
Think of someone telling his pal about a moive he saw last night. That's the sort of level of detail that you're going for.
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