Israel starts Gaza ground offensive

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emax100

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If that were true, wouldn't Hamas, and maybe even all of Palestine be swatted off the map already?

Why hasn't that happened?
Good question when you consider that Israel really does have the capacity to turn every square inch of the Gaza strip into its own personal parking lot in a matter of hours, not days but hours.
 

firedrake

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If that were true, wouldn't Hamas, and maybe even all of Palestine be swatted off the map already?

Why hasn't that happened?

Because Israel's not stupid enough to alienate the friends it has. Simples.
 

clintl

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If that were true, wouldn't Hamas, and maybe even all of Palestine be swatted off the map already?

Why hasn't that happened?

What firedrake said.

It might be noted, too, that something pretty close to that was in the original charter of Israel's current ruling party.
 

William Haskins

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Your words, William, not mine.

I imagine a principled Hamas would keep their largely ineffective rockets in their extensive military bases miles away from civilian populations? In my perfect world Palestine would resist like Gandhi. But in the world we live in this all seems desperately disproportionate.

yep. i wasn't suggesting they were your words.

but you hit on the crux of the matter nicely. the allure of the perpetual underdog. it's irresistible to some.

just don't dig too deeply beyond your stats. you might find blood on hands you didn't expect.
 

William Haskins

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What firedrake said.

It might be noted, too, that something pretty close to that was in the original charter of Israel's current ruling party.

note that no such "pretty close" qualification is required when discussing the hamas covenant.
 

firedrake

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maybe israel could turn off their sirens and the iron dome to make things more fair.

what the stats don't tell you is that how palestinian civilians are used as human shields, how hamas will trade the deaths of children for propaganda points, store rockets in schools and what-not.

but yeah, fuck israel.

israel warns civilians when they are going to shell the homes and hideouts of hamas militants in their area.

hamas tells the civilians that the warnings are psychological warfare.

the kids, in this instance, had been told to stay away from the beach by their fathers.

but if you think the IDF is just looking to cherry-pick kids playing on a beach, go for it.

i absolutely do not.


The tone of the above responses would suggest that your ball's pretty much in Israel's court.

forgive me if I've got it wrong.
 

William Haskins

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The tone of the above responses would suggest that your ball's pretty much in Israel's court.

forgive me if I've got it wrong.

this is not wrong.

But let's not paint Israel as saintly here.

this, however, is. and you seem to be conflating one with the other and they are not the same.

i'm on record, here and elsewhere, in strong support of a two-state solution.

i believe hamas and its vile anti-semitism, its murderous fanaticism and its barbarous disregard for the people for whom it claims to fight is counterproductive to the peace process and deadly for the palestinian people.

this does not, in any way, excuse israel's carelessness and excesses, nor likud's and netanyahu's aggressive policies.
 

mccardey

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this is not wrong.



this, however, is. and you seem to be conflating one with the other and they are not the same.

i'm on record, here and elsewhere, in strong support of a two-state solution.

i believe hamas and its vile anti-semitism, its murderous fanaticism and its barbarous disregard for the people for whom it claims to fight is counterproductive to the peace process and deadly for the palestinian people.

this does not, in any way, excuse israel's carelessness and excesses, nor likud's and netanyahu's aggressive policies.

You're making the word careless carry a pretty hefty load there, old son.
 

William Haskins

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unless you're suggesting that there is official IDF policy to target civilians, then carelessness or rampant rogue murder are the only other answers.

what motivation would israel have for deliberately bombing children on a beach, especially when its tenuous support from other nations is constantly laced with admonitions to minimize civilian casualties?

i reckon i can make a better case that errant bombings more resemble carelessness than does a suicide bomber strewing the limbs of jewish children.

old son.
 

raburrell

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unless you're suggesting that there is official IDF policy to target civilians, then carelessness or rampant rogue murder are the only other answers.

what motivation would israel have for deliberately bombing children on a beach, especially when its tenuous support from other nations is constantly laced with admonitions to minimize civilian casualties?

i reckon i can make a better case that errant bombings more resemble carelessness than does a suicide bomber strewing the limbs of jewish children.

old son.
If Israel wanted to send a message that the gloves are off, that would've been a pretty effective way of doing it.

As I said above, I don't believe such things are normal Israeli policy, but I don't view this being some kind of message as out of the realm of possibility either.
 

mccardey

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unless you're suggesting that there is official IDF policy to target civilians, then carelessness or rampant rogue murder are the only other answers.

what motivation would israel have for deliberately bombing children on a beach, especially when its tenuous support from other nations is constantly laced with admonitions to minimize civilian casualties?

i reckon i can make a better case that errant bombings more resemble carelessness than does a suicide bomber strewing the limbs of jewish children.

old son.

I'm talking more about the act of lobbing missiles generally. Warfare, defense, aggression, call it what you will (and I'm not limiting it to the Israel/Palestine conflict) is usually not an act of carelessness.

("Old son" btw, is a term of affection down here. But not one applied in the general sense to old ladies. :granny: FWIW)
 

Torgo

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but you hit on the crux of the matter nicely. the allure of the perpetual underdog. it's irresistible to some.

This is an odd argument. Is it in reference to my comment about disproportionality? I think Israel's stated reasons for attacks in which hundreds of Palestinians have been killed are inadequate. This seems like a working description of injustice. Is deploring injustice simply an emotional reaction based on 'the allure of the underdog'? Are you accusing me of bad faith? When you call this the 'crux of the matter' are you in fact saying that all partiality towards the Palestinians is rooted in this kind of bad faith?

I'd like a two-state solution too. If we take the - let's stipulate it, fine - blood-soaked terrorists of Hamas out of the equation, it appears Netanyahu is still unwilling to countenance any form of Palestinian sovereignty.

Well, William: so it goes.
 

c.e.lawson

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I honestly don't understand the willingness to defend Hamas over Israel that occurs over and over in these discussions. Israel is one of the freest societies in the entire world, let alone the Middle East, including women's rights and gay rights. Heck, its Arab population is the freest in the Middle East, and Arabs make up a significant part (I think around 1/5th?) of Israel's population. So I will join William (who appears a little lonely) and openly support Israel in this thread. Thank goodness Israel has the guts and the means to defend itself. And just for a perspective on Israel and its recent history other than most of what is in this discussion, here's a link to an opinion piece by Charles Krauthammer, an admirably clear thinker at the Washington Post. As he reminds us, the idea of a two state system is nice, but is it possible even if Israel is willing? They tried it not too long ago...

http://www.gazettextra.com/20140717...t_mideast_clash_creates_moral_clarity_in_gaza
 

c.e.lawson

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You're right. My mistake. I should have said the hesitancy to support Israel, not defend Hamas. My apologies. Which doesn't change the gist of my concern, both on the world wide stage as well as smaller discussions like these.
 
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Hanson

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Terror is the weapon used by both sides here.

Whether is high tech, low tech, 'targeted', or careless, its name is terror.

I'm not really going to offer more than that, but I do think that's the baseline here.

Once one proceeds from that baseline, then I suppose nuances can be explored.

But, to me, as long as terror is the choice of both parties, there will be no resolution.
 

cornflake

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unless you're suggesting that there is official IDF policy to target civilians, then carelessness or rampant rogue murder are the only other answers.

what motivation would israel have for deliberately bombing children on a beach, especially when its tenuous support from other nations is constantly laced with admonitions to minimize civilian casualties?

i reckon i can make a better case that errant bombings more resemble carelessness than does a suicide bomber strewing the limbs of jewish children.

old son.

Repeatedly saying that it's not policy to target civilians, saying that it is, in fact, against policy to do so, while killing hundreds of civilians in multiple airstrikes, engaging in terroristic tactics parading as 'humanitarian warnings' like roofknockers, and the like, do not actually equate to not targeting civilians.

If it walks like a terrorist state, and blows people up like a terrorist state, just because it then says 'we're investigating' and 'it's not our policy,' doesn't mean it's not a terrorist state.

Israel is perhaps not getting much support because it keeps killing lots of people while shrugging and going on about 'defending' itself. It's like if Justin Bieber started attacking The Rock, and The Rock held Bieber at arm's length while Bieber ineffectually flailed at the air, then The Rock started kicking, punching, and otherwise beating the shit out of Bieber and said, 'I was defending myself.'
 

rugcat

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As always, this seems to be an intractable situation.

Israel has both treated the Palestinians in heavy handed and often despicable ways, and responded in ways that have inflicted great suffering on innocent non-combatents.

Hamas has made it their religious mission in life to destroy Israel. They send thousands of rockets raining down on the Israeli civilian population. The fact that Israel's defense is strong and the rockets don't kill a lot of people is not relevant. It's not for lack of trying.

Bottom line, Hamas is launching rockets. Israel says, stop launching rockets at our population or we will hit you with air strikes. Hamas refuses, then asks the world to condemn Israel when air strikes occur.

You know who benefits most from the Israeli response? Hamas. They are more than happy to see civilian casualties in Gaza. It turns world opinion against the Israelis, and strengthens them in their self proclaimed role of fighing Israeli terror.

I'm no fan of Israeli policy, esp as regards the settlements. They have much to answer for. But make no mistake, this confrontation is of Hamas' making and they couldn't be more delighted.

ETA: I posted this response before I read Raburrell's link. That says it far better,
 
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