NYPD kill asthmatic father with chokehold

nighttimer

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Wow. Are you deliberately ignoring the posts where I explicitly state that the cops are wrong and responsible because they failed to render aid once Garner was in custody?

That part was obscured by your overweening insistence in presenting yourself as some sort of forensic authority on the damage done by illegal chokeholds.

Based upon...what, exactly? An uninformed opinion?

Emilander said:
Perhaps you should answer Megyn Kelly's question yourself.

No, no. You first.

Emilander said:
Questioning claims that the force used was excessive is not trying to spin anything. Claiming that the force used must be excessive because someone died in hindsight, unless you want to argue that the cops intended to kill him, is unfair, in my opinion, because it presumes knowledge available to the officers that they reasonably could not have had.

Once again, I feel that people have been focusing too much on the chokehold, simply because it is a banned action. So when I saw reports that the chokehold didn't do damage, I assumed good faith on the part of the media that it was true and that the medical examiner was the source of the quote. I made a mistake.

Here is where Voltaire's quote, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" seems an appropriate response.

I disbelieve the absurd. :rolleyes
 

Cranky

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And I don't believe this thread is best served by remaining open for people to keep kicking each other in the shins.

That said, there are likely to be further developments rather soon, so I'll leave it open for now. In the meantime:

Try less "you" statements, folks. Attack the arguments.We've been down this road many times before and I'm rather tired of repeating what you guys ALREADY know you should be doing.

If that can't be done, the lock goes on. No questions, no more warnings, no more appeals for civility. And no chance of reopening. There are lots of other things we can talk about.
 

robjvargas

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I understand why the current and former officers among us hesitate to discuss the particulars of a case like this.

Perhaps police use of force (as well as civilian use of force) needs a broader discussion? I've started a thread to see if that gets going.
 

nighttimer

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Garner’s death has already prompted several articles and segments in the media, many of which superficially engage the issues of racism and police violence. Of particular concern here are the issues of history, surveillance and some of potential defenses that will be offered by the police—all of which support the undeniable, four-century chokehold that racism has had on non-whites.

Some of these commentaries capture the typical anger and indignation that comes with incidents like this. Other reports, mainly mainstream media, seem surprised by the idea that police brutality actually happens and/or cover the story to the extent that it is profitably scandalous. Both of these dispositions are a byproduct of the killing being caught on camera. One wonders what reporting would look like without the footage.

Others discuss susceptibility to police violence as what Franz Fanon might call a “fact of blackness.” One black editor rightfully acknowledges that the “Black Person Is Abused by Police” story is a perpetual news item and writes “if one of my contributors submits a piece on the phenomenon of unarmed black dudes getting shot by the cops a little past deadline, I just tell them to wait a few weeks and we’ll be able to run it again when the next black kid gets killed with a few of the details changed.”

link

Word.

From Rodney King to Eric Garner, the imminent threat posed by "big Black guys" has been used time and again by police apologists to deny what is seen, shut out what is heard, and dismiss what they do not believe.

The camera never lies, but neither does it completely reveal the truth. That is why there are investigations and evidence and autopsies and the process of determining what happened and who is responsible must be pursued despite the hue and cry of the public.

Fear of big Black guys is not and never will be any sort of justification for beating, choking or killing them, but still the stories keep coming over and over with no end in sight. Mistakes are made, things spin out of control and the thin blue line becomes the line of death from another Black guy, big or otherwise.

The sharpest barb here is while the relationship between cops and Black communities is tentatively wary at best, openly hostile at worse, nobody needs the protections and professionalism of the police more than the Black community as any weekend in Chicago offers ample proof of.

Yet here are the cops on one side and those that need them the most and trust them the least on the other with the only certainty is nothing is going to change for the better.

Enough Kings and Garners being shrugged off as Big Black Guys who got a little scary and became a whole lot dead will do that.

It's just so goddamned familiar now. :Shrug:
 

benbradley

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There was a case in Cobb County, GA recently where a man left his son in a hot car all day and the child died. The initial outcry from "social media," was that the father was being railroaded. After a while, as details were revealed, the tone changed.

The only point I am making is that sometimes it is better not to rush to judgment and allow the emotion of the moment to subside a bit.
We've got a thread on it:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291991
 

Larry M

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… Yet here are the cops on one side and those that need them the most and trust them the least on the other with the only certainty is nothing is going to change for the better.

Is it white cops or all cops you're saying that are trusted the least?

Not looking for a fight; just trying to understand.
 
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nighttimer

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Is it white cops or all cops you're saying that are trusted the least?

Not looking for a fight; just trying to understand.

I believe it to be all cops that are generally distrusted by the Black community.

This is not me trying to be the official spokesperson for 35 or so million African-Americans. This is merely my belief which I believe to be true.

I could be wrong, but I'm afraid I'm not. :Shrug:
 

Larry M

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I believe it to be all cops that are generally distrusted by the Black community.

This is not me trying to be the official spokesperson for 35 or so million African-Americans. This is merely my belief which I believe to be true.

I could be wrong, but I'm afraid I'm not. :Shrug:

I also believe you are correct.
 

nighttimer

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I also believe you are correct.

And don't I wish to heaven I wasn't. This makes me equal parts madder than hell and sickened to my stomach

Three children who had been selling fruit to raise money for a playground were killed in North Philadelphia on Friday morning after two men carjacked an SUV and drove it into a crowd, police said.

Police identified the victims as 15-year-old Kiera Williams, 10-year-old Thomas Reed, and 7-year-old Terrence Williams.
The children were at a stand near Germantown and Allegheny Avenues, police said. Three other people were injured, including the children's mother, Keisha Williams, 34, who was "fighting for her life," said Deputy Mayor Everett Gillison.

The men were still at large Saturday morning. A reward for information leading to an arrest in the case stood at $110,000, with $10,000 of that coming from the Fraternal Order of Police. The deadline for the FOP award has been extended until noon Monday.

Witnesses struggled to maintain their composure as they described a scene of pandemonium: the battered SUV; the swarm of police and ambulances; the bodies scattered across the grassy lot on Allegheny.

"There are no words to describe how I feel right now," Police Commissioner Charles H. Ramsey told reporters at a news conference. Capt. James Clark called the incident "one of the saddest cases I've come across" in six years with the Homicide Unit.

Clark said the Toyota 4Runner that hit the children was carjacked about a mile away about 11 a.m.

The vehicle belonged to a real estate agent who was showing a house to a client in that neighborhood, he said. She had just wrapped up a meeting and was preparing to leave when two men approached the vehicle and forced their way in at gunpoint, Clark said.

They made the woman drive for some time before forcing her into the backseat, Clark said. One of them then took the wheel and sped north to Allegheny and Germantown, he said.

Police were still piecing together what happened at that intersection, Clark said. At some point, the vehicle blew a tire; at some point, the driver lost control and veered over a curb into the fruit stand.

"Something went horribly wrong," Clark said.


It has been proven time and again it is urban citizens who face thuggery like this who need the police the most. Somehow cops and those citizens need to find a way to bridge their differences and band together against street criminals,a common enemy to both groups.
 

nighttimer

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Okay, WTF is UP in NYC anyhow? :Wha:

Police are investigating whether a cop put a seven-months-pregnant woman in a chokehold while busting her for illegal grilling in Brooklyn — an incident caught on film.

Photos released Monday by an East New York advocacy group show Rosan Miller, 27, struggling with a cop who appears to have his arm around her neck.

The NYPD prohibits the use of chokeholds.

Officers went to the home over the weekend because Miller was grilling on a public sidewalk in violation of local law, cops said. But a melee broke out that ended with her, her brother and husband all in handcuffs.

The brother, John Miller, was charged with harassment and obstruction of justice. Her husband, Moses Miller, 34, was charged with resisting arrest and obstruction. Rosan Miller got a summons for disorderly conduct.

When former city councilman Charles Barron heard, he called cops to complain and "expedite" the Millers' release, he said, "This was all over a grill," Barron said. "This is about grilling in front of her house."

Yes, but it was illegal grilling! Miss Miller didn't use a meat thermometer to sure those burgers were done all the way through!

She might have served someone uncooked meat and then where would we be?

Has no one told the NYPD when you're already under a spotlight for choking out a guy and him dying on you, the very last thing you want to do is pull the same shit AGAIN on a pregnant woman for grilling on the friggin' sidewalk? I mean, send out a memo or something!

The mind reels...:e2smack:
 

Diana Hignutt

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What with the sale of loosies and all this sidewalk BBQ...it seems the NYC is practically the Old West...no wonder the police are extra jumpy.
 

Don

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Agorism FTW!
I'd say she was lucky she wasn't also selling lemonade. That probably would have warranted calling out the SWAT team.
 

Don

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...and the hits just keep on coming.

NYPD stomps on individual’s head during arrest (video at the link)
 

Don

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Reason's coverage of the grilling incident includes a bit of reaction from higher-ups.
At a press conference earlier today New York City’s mayor, Democrat Bill De Blasio, said that “the law is the law” and that the NYPD would continue to strictly enforce petty laws like the ones that led to this pregnant woman’s brutal encounter with police and Garner’s. Bill Bratton, the city’s police commissioner, added that respecting police and correcting your behavior when they engage you is what democracy’s all about.
Or, to paraphrase for a T-shirt version:

"The floggings will continue until morale improves."

Oh, and I love this part.

"respecting police and correcting your behavior when they engage you is what democracy’s all about."

I. Did. Not. Know. That.

I thought democracy was a method of selecting leaders. Silly me.

The author of the article had a different take on it, as well. Bolding mine.
My parents, who grew up in Communist Poland, always taught me that when interacting with police I should be be polite, avoid eye contact, avoid volunteering information, and attempt to end the interaction as quickly as possible. This was advice they accumulated from decades of living under communist rule. Facing assault, and even death, for failing to comply with authorities, that’s what totalitarianism was about, not democracy.

Can we call it a police state yet, or should we wait for more evidence?
 

Diana Hignutt

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Reason's coverage of the grilling incident includes a bit of reaction from higher-ups.

Or, to paraphrase for a T-shirt version:

"The floggings will continue until morale improves."

Oh, and I love this part.

"respecting police and correcting your behavior when they engage you is what democracy’s all about."

I. Did. Not. Know. That.

I thought democracy was a method of selecting leaders. Silly me.

The author of the article had a different take on it, as well. Bolding mine.


Can we call it a police state yet, or should we wait for more evidence?

So, democracy is about doing as your told by authority figures? I also. did. not. know. that. Huh.
 

robjvargas

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No, no, no, no.

HELL NO.

Any official of government who believes that is badly in need of impeachment. Throw that bum out. Yesterday.
 

Ambrosia

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I was outraged when I read the OP. I am just in a state of shock after seeing the additional stories, including the arrest of the pregnant woman for grilling "illegally" and the video of the cop stomping on the guy's head who was already in custody, subdued, laying on the pavement in handcuffs.

What the hell is going on? Is this normal for NYC police? And the mayor is backing this crap up?
 

robjvargas

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I was outraged when I read the OP. I am just in a state of shock after seeing the additional stories, including the arrest of the pregnant woman for grilling "illegally" and the video of the cop stomping on the guy's head who was already in custody, subdued, laying on the pavement in handcuffs.

What the hell is going on? Is this normal for NYC police? And the mayor is backing this crap up?

Police Commissioner Bill Bratton spewed that lovely bit of "wisdom" at the press conference "Honorable" Bill De Blasio setup, so I feel comfortable saying the answer to your question is "Yes. He does."

And I bet the mayor clinked glasses with him for saying it, too.
 

Cranky

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Personally, I think this is a natural outgrowth of two things:

One, the idea that no crime is too small for police attention, and how much firepower the cops have. Empower them to go after even petty criminals with their shiny new toys and loosened protections, and I don't think we can be surprised at the result.

Just my opinion, of course. More of a gut feeling, really.
 

robjvargas

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Government only ever wants one thing, even when it's with the best of intentions.

Power.

And this is far from the best of intentions.
 

benbradley

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...and the hits just keep on coming.

NYPD stomps on individual’s head during arrest (video at the link)
Not even going to the link, I'm just wondering where I've heard something like that before.

Oh, here it is, it sounded like something I'd read before, and indeed I have, way back in high school:
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Chapter_3_3
 

nighttimer

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For those whom don't have time to click on links, let's get down to the real nitty-gritty.

Eric Garner, 43, a black man whose confrontation with a white police officer has prompted calls by the Rev. Al Sharpton for federal prosecution, was killed by neck compressions from the chokehold as well as "the compression of his chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police," said medical examiner spokeswoman Julie Bolcer.

Asthma, heart disease and obesity were contributing factors in the death of Garner, a 6-foot-3, 350-pound father of six, she said.

The finding increases the likelihood that the case will be presented to a grand jury to determine whether Daniel Pantaleo, the officer who placed Garner in the chokehold, or any other officers involved in the confrontation will face criminal charges. Pantaleo's attorney, Stuart London, declined to comment Friday.

Garner's wife, Esaw, told the Daily News, "Thank God the truth is finally out."

Ramsey Orta, 22, a friend of Garner's who videotaped his struggle with police, said in an interview that the medical examiner's ruling wasn't surprising.

"I knew that was the cause because I saw it," he said. "Now somebody should get charged."
Indeed.

The time for amateur analysis is over. Now justice must be pursued (which I have deep doubts will be found).