Messy drafts

gettingby · Jan 6, 2015

I usually write pretty clean first drafts, but my last few stories haven't come out as polished as they usually do or used to in the first draft. I'm not sure why this is happening and would like to get back to having my first drafts read more like final drafts. What I have been doing now is opening a new word doc when I am about two thirds done and restarting the story. I am not playing off the old draft or cutting and pasting at all. In fact, I don't even look at the first draft until the new draft is done. This seems to be working, but it is an extra step. How do I get back to writing better first drafts?

Part of the problem is that I have come up with some interesting plot points while writing that need to appear sooner in the story than when they come to me as the writer. I make my stories up as I go so I never really know where I'm headed. I love watching the stories unfold as I write them. I don't want to start outlining or planning things out. That would take some of the fun out of it, and it wouldn't really solve my problem of wanting to get it right the first time. And even with starting a new version, I am still making it up as I go because I haven't decided how the story will end.

I have been really happy with my stories lately, but they are taking longer to finish. All I can think of is that my newer stories have more moving parts. They are more complex with twists and unexpected turns. I recently took a course on revising short stories, and, perhaps, what I have learned is in fact a multi-step process.

Since I started writing short stories, I have been really focused on quantity but not at the price of suffering quality. Still, I write a lot, thinking that the more I create the better my chances are of producing a really good story. I used to write a short story a week. Now it is more like a month. I am wondering if anyone here has ever found themselves slowing down. Did it help your writing to slow down? Were you able to get back to your old speed? It's too early to tell if my newer works will get published, and if that's the case, I probably won't mind the extra step(s).

gettingby · Jan 6, 2015

I should add (in case it's not clear) that when I try to make changes in my original draft it gets really messy. That is why I open a new doc and start again.

OJCade · Jan 6, 2015

Is it possible you're experiencing a plateau effect from a jump in quality? You say your stories are getting more complex - perhaps you're just writing at a higher level now. Maybe after you've had a bit more practice writing at that level, it'll start to come easier again.

By which time you'll be about ready to make the next big improvement leap, wherein the whole process will start all over again.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 7, 2015

My first drafts have almost always been publishable, even before I started editing/rewriting each page as I go, but I have had your problem happen to me.

The few times your problem happened to me was when I wrote a complex story where I really wanted to say something, really wanted to achieve something. Instead of just writing, I tried too hard to say something, tried too hard to achieve something. Those stories never sold. I haven't had this happen since I started working so hard to make each page a final draft page as I write, but it did happen fairly often when I did a second draft. I think I also counted on that second draft to straighten things out, but it rarely did.

This may not be your problem, but I have no doubt it was mine.

Ken · Jan 7, 2015

Slowing down isn't necessarily bad. So cheer up and quit being glum ;-)

One thing, for me, that I have learnt though. You can't make a good story out of an okay plot or okay set of characters. You've really gotta start off with a good plot and characters from the start. The better they are the easier the story is to write. (Not that I outline or anything. I just have certain things set. The general plot, etc.) As long as I do that things go okay. If not then I begin rewriting and that often leads nowhere. Just my own experience.

gettingby · Jan 7, 2015

OJCade said:
Is it possible you're experiencing a plateau effect from a jump in quality? You say your stories are getting more complex - perhaps you're just writing at a higher level now. Maybe after you've had a bit more practice writing at that level, it'll start to come easier again.

By which time you'll be about ready to make the next big improvement leap, wherein the whole process will start all over again.

The word "plateau" is throwing me off a bit. I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I would like to. Maybe you can explain it a little more. Thanks for the comment.

gettingby · Jan 7, 2015

Jamesaritchie said:
My first drafts have almost always been publishable, even before I started editing/rewriting each page as I go, but I have had your problem happen to me.

The few times your problem happened to me was when I wrote a complex story where I really wanted to say something, really wanted to achieve something. Instead of just writing, I tried too hard to say something, tried too hard to achieve something. Those stories never sold. I haven't had this happen since I started working so hard to make each page a final draft page as I write, but it did happen fairly often when I did a second draft. I think I also counted on that second draft to straighten things out, but it rarely did.

This may not be your problem, but I have no doubt it was mine.

What you say you do is what I would like to be doing. One draft. Publishable. Edit as I go. But I also think what you are saying makes sense. When I read complex stories, they sound so effortless and are often, for me, the most memorable. I love reading these types of stories, but writing them is requiring more effort. I also think I am trying to say something with my stories. I hadn't thought about it like that, but I think you're right.

Since I am in school for writing, I often feel this urge or desire to produce something that will be different and stand out. I also see it as an opportunity to test and push myself as a writer while I have the chance to get feedback. I don't want to hand in anything that is too similar to other things my classmates have seen. My plots and humor are what people tend to like. I guess I am trying to take my strengths and reach new levels.

What worries me is that you said your more complex stories didn't sell. I know you know the business, but do you have any idea as to what made those stories a harder sell? I was thinking that I might have a better shot at publishing more complex stories.

OJCade · Jan 7, 2015

I guess it's not very clear!

I like to think that I write pretty clean first drafts. I'm not a fan of rewriting, so like you I want the first draft to be as polished as possible.

That being said, if I identify an on-going weakness in my writing (for example "My dialogue could stand some improvement") then for a while, my writing process will focus on that.

Now, as it happens, I'm not very good with dialogue. I'd rather stick with lots of flowery description, as that's my comfort zone. So: I start really focusing on dialogue. That's my weak spot, so improving it takes some effort - my stories becomes harder to finish. I've plateaued - I spend extra time rewriting bits, I get stuck more often. Instead of those lovely first drafts that come so easily when I focus on flowery description, I'm stuck doing hard slog until the quality of my dialogue improves. At which point, it becomes easier to write. Not such a millstone on my creative process, and the drafts begin to come easier.

You said you were writing more complex stories, with more moving parts. This takes practice. Naturally things are going to slow down until you get it nailed.

gettingby · Jan 7, 2015

Ken said:
Slowing down isn't necessarily bad. So cheer up and quit being glum ;-)

One thing, for me, that I have learnt though. You can't make a good story out of an okay plot or okay set of characters. You've really gotta start off with a good plot and characters from the start. The better they are the easier the story is to write. (Not that I outline or anything. I just have certain things set. The general plot, etc.) As long as I do that things go okay. If not then I begin rewriting and that often leads nowhere. Just my own experience.

Thanks. Slowing down seems like a step backwards, but maybe it's not. I feel like I can create good plots and characters. It's just sometimes I get to page five or ten and then something great comes to me that needed to be said sooner. Then it shifts everything. Then it gets messy. There is nothing obviously wrong in my first drafts. I just realize as I'm writing it that there might be a better direction to head in. For me, the rewriting does lead somewhere, and I am happy with most of my results. It's just that not everything is coming to as quickly as I wish it did and as quickly as it used to come to me. It's kind of like I am second guessing myself halfway through. When this happens I start again rather than finishing the draft since I don't want to write a full draft that I know I won't use. But my ideas are usually solid and my instincts right, I believe.

Since you don't use outline either, how do you know if your plot and characters are good when you start writing? And since it sounds like you don't write multiple drafts, what do you do when a piece of the story comes to you when you are already in the middle of writing it but to follow that new idea will change things?

Ken · Jan 7, 2015

gettingby said:
Thanks. Slowing down seems like a step backwards, but maybe it's not. I feel like I can create good plots and characters. It's just sometimes I get to page five or ten and then something great comes to me that needed to be said sooner. Then it shifts everything. Then it gets messy. There is nothing obviously wrong in my first drafts. I just realize as I'm writing it that there might be a better direction to head in. For me, the rewriting does lead somewhere, and I am happy with most of my results. It's just that not everything is coming to as quickly as I wish it did and as quickly as it used to come to me. It's kind of like I am second guessing myself halfway through. When this happens I start again rather than finishing the draft since I don't want to write a full draft that I know I won't use. But my ideas are usually solid and my instincts right, I believe.

Since you don't use outline either, how do you know if your plot and characters are good when you start writing? And since it sounds like you don't write multiple drafts, what do you do when a piece of the story comes to you when you are already in the middle of writing it but to follow that new idea will change things?

Ahh. But I do still rewrite ;-)
It's just that when I start off good the rewrite leads to a finished story I'm satisfied with. Otherwise, something I wind up scrapping, or finishing but usually just trunk because it isn't up to par. For me, if an idea comes that changes things I can incorporate it rather than overhauling the whole story. No need to start over as such. But, you know. Starting over again is a rather interesting idea. Maybe next time I'll consider that. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is getting a good story down. Of course you don't want to spend forever on each and every one. But as long as things remain reasonable that's fine. And when you're learning, which is a never ending process, time is neither here nor there.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 7, 2015

gettingby said:
What worries me is that you said your more complex stories didn't sell. I know you know the business, but do you have any idea as to what made those stories a harder sell? I was thinking that I might have a better shot at publishing more complex stories.

Complex stories can sell very well. Mine didn't because I wasn't telling them well enough. I wasn't telling them well enough because I was concentrating too much on trying to say something meaningful, and too little on simply writing, on simply telling the tale, and letting meaning come through on its on. I was trying to force meaning, trying to force something great, instead of just letting it happen.

We're all different, but my stories come out better, more salable, and with more undertone of meaning, if I worry only about telling a story. I need to just write, to draw a good character, and to let all theme, all meaning, all greatness, come along for the ride, if this makes any sense.

I write a fair number of complex stories, ones that have a theme, and they sell, but only if I'm not trying to write a complex story that has deep theme and meaning.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 7, 2015

gettingby said:
Thanks. Slowing down seems like a step backwards, but maybe it's not. I feel like I can create good plots and characters. It's just sometimes I get to page five or ten and then something great comes to me that needed to be said sooner. Then it shifts everything. Then it gets messy. There is nothing obviously wrong in my first drafts. I just realize as I'm writing it that there might be a better direction to head in. For me, the rewriting does lead somewhere, and I am happy with most of my results. It's just that not everything is coming to as quickly as I wish it did and as quickly as it used to come to me. It's kind of like I am second guessing myself halfway through. When this happens I start again rather than finishing the draft since I don't want to write a full draft that I know I won't use. But my ideas are usually solid and my instincts right, I believe.

Since you don't use outline either, how do you know if your plot and characters are good when you start writing? And since it sounds like you don't write multiple drafts, what do you do when a piece of the story comes to you when you are already in the middle of writing it but to follow that new idea will change things?

First, slowing down is often much faster than writing fast. Speed is not how many words per minute you type, it's how long it takes to go from the first word you type to the time you submit the story. It's rewriting, editing, doing multiple drafts that makes writing slow.

I write fairly slowly. About half as fast as the average pro writer. Because I need only one "draft", however, I finish my final drafts much faster than most pro writers. For me, the best speed to write is whatever speed allows me to write quality.

As for those ideas that pop up halfway through a story, I almost always ignore them. Because of the way I write, making sure each page is not only as perfect as I can make it before moving on to the next page, but also making sure it matches the previous pages I've written in every way, I can't go back without throwing everything away and starting over.

Doing this, I've found, is a death trap. It can quickly become a habit, and very few things every get finished because there's always a new idea. So unless I realize that the original somehow makes the story unworkable, leaves a plot hole that can't be filled, I ignore the new idea because it's probably no better. The new idea always seems better, but when I've gone back and written it in, yet another new idea usually comes to mind.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 7, 2015

Ken said:
Ahh. But I do still rewrite ;-)
It's just that when I start off good the rewrite leads to a finished story I'm satisfied with. Otherwise, something I wind up scrapping, or finishing but usually just trunk because it isn't up to par. For me, if an idea comes that changes things I can incorporate it rather than overhauling the whole story. No need to start over as such. But, you know. Starting over again is a rather interesting idea. Maybe next time I'll consider that. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is getting a good story down. Of course you don't want to spend forever on each and every one. But as long as things remain reasonable that's fine. And when you're learning, which is a never ending process, time is neither here nor there.

I never scrap or trunk anything because no writer is a god judge of his own writing, and many stories I've thought sucked dead dust bunnies have sold, and sold,m and sold, and sold.

But I rewrite, too. It's just that I rewrite each page as I go, rather than waiting until the story is finished. I rewrite the page not only for style, but for story, meaning I go over and over the page until it not only reads as well a sI can write, but until it matches the overall story, every page I've already written, perfectly. I may not have to touch a page to make this happen, or I may have to rewrite it a dozen times, but I keep at it until it does happen.

I may have only one "draft", but this does not mean I do no rewriting.

Though I have sold a lot of stories that were true first drafts, usually because of deadlines.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 7, 2015

OJCade said:
I guess it's not very clear!

I like to think that I write pretty clean first drafts. I'm not a fan of rewriting, so like you I want the first draft to be as polished as possible.

That being said, if I identify an on-going weakness in my writing (for example "My dialogue could stand some improvement") then for a while, my writing process will focus on that.

Now, as it happens, I'm not very good with dialogue. I'd rather stick with lots of flowery description, as that's my comfort zone. So: I start really focusing on dialogue. That's my weak spot, so improving it takes some effort - my stories becomes harder to finish. I've plateaued - I spend extra time rewriting bits, I get stuck more often. Instead of those lovely first drafts that come so easily when I focus on flowery description, I'm stuck doing hard slog until the quality of my dialogue improves. At which point, it becomes easier to write. Not such a millstone on my creative process, and the drafts begin to come easier.

You said you were writing more complex stories, with more moving parts. This takes practice. Naturally things are going to slow down until you get it nailed.

If you can believe editors and critics, dialogue, characterization, and description are my strong points, but I still wonder if my writing method might work for you. Now, I think I'm good at the first two because my characters are real people of the kind I know extremely well, and I let them talk the way I've heard them talk my entire life. I also use characters who talk the way I do.

I think I'm pretty good at description partly because I ignore all the writing advice I read about how to write description. If it makes any sense, I describe what I see in my mind, and let it go at that. If it includes more detail than popular writing advice says it should, I don't care. Editors love it, and I get letters/emails from readers telling me the description brought the story to life, so screw writing advice on how too much description is bad.

But a big reason these things are as strong as they are is because the way I write lets me concentrate on each of these things as I go. When I reach the end of a page I go back to the top and start over. Depending on what the page is about, I may do this three or four times for dialogue alone, and another three or four times for character and description and story. Some pages may have no dialogue, some may have little or no description, but I work on whatever is there over and over until it's right.

This mighty help your dialogue. On a dialogue heavy page, I go back to the top and question each line of dialogue. Is this what the character would actually say? Is this how he would really say it? Does it need to be shorter or longer? Does it need "he said" removed? Does it need "he said' added for better rhythm?

I don't move on to the next page until I'm satisfied that the page I'm on is as good in every way as I can make it, including dialogue, characterization, description, and story.

OJCade · Jan 7, 2015

By trial and error, I've found writing around the dialogue - actually writing less of it - helped me more than anything else.

I tend to be a silent girl myself. My perception is that everyone around me talks and talks and talks, and my dialogue was terrible because I was trying to recreate that. Once I pared my dialogue down to the bare minimum, and concentrated on reinforcing it, mirroring it even, with description it all started to come together. It works for me because it plays to my strengths.

Otherwise, my process is very similar to yours. Each sentence has to be right before I move onto the next one. It means I can't recreate the speed in which some other authors write, but I rarely need more than a first draft, so it all evens out regardless.

Ken · Jan 7, 2015

Jamesaritchie said:
I never scrap or trunk anything because no writer is a god judge of his own writing, and many stories I've thought sucked dead dust bunnies have sold, and sold,m and sold, and sold.

But I rewrite, too. It's just that I rewrite each page as I go, rather than waiting until the story is finished. I rewrite the page not only for style, but for story, meaning I go over and over the page until it not only reads as well a sI can write, but until it matches the overall story, every page I've already written, perfectly. I may not have to touch a page to make this happen, or I may have to rewrite it a dozen times, but I keep at it until it does happen.

I may have only one "draft", but this does not mean I do no rewriting.

Though I have sold a lot of stories that were true first drafts, usually because of deadlines.

Thnx for the insight. It's a good point. Sometimes a story one has no faith in may actually be good and be well received if submitted. So one shouldn't be so quick to write something off. The lesson to be learnt.

Probably does get one snickering. A writer believes a story of theirs rots. They send it off. And whatcha know. "Love it. Gonna publish it, next issue!" LOL.

Cybernaught · Jan 7, 2015

I keep revising stories even after I've sold them. Sometimes you just have to submit.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 7, 2015

OJCade said:
By trial and error, I've found writing around the dialogue - actually writing less of it - helped me more than anything else.

.

You're in good company. Lovecraft may be the most widely know writer who was pretty bad at dialogue, but he knew it, and wrote as little as possible. This did not stop him from writing a fair number of classics.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 7, 2015

Cybernaught said:
I keep revising stories even after I've sold them. Sometimes you just have to submit.

I'm a firm, one hundred percent believe in Heinlein's Rule, so once I submit a story, I never rewrite a word of it, unless an editor asks me to. I move on to the next story, and never look back. Not only does writing new teach me far more than trying to rewrite old, it also means I keep gaining experience, and that the numbers soon grow to the point where something is always selling.

I've always thought rewriting old stories, rather than constantly writing new ones, was a serious mistake, but many new writers spend months, or years, working on old stories, usually to no avail. I figured this out for myself before I ever read Heinlein's Rules, but they were a nice confirmation.

blacbird · Jan 7, 2015

Jamesaritchie said:
You're in good company. Lovecraft may be the most widely know writer who was pretty bad at dialogue, but he knew it, and wrote as little as possible. This did not stop him from writing a fair number of classics.

Lovecraft's non-dialogue prose (which is about 99% of his output) is, by almost any standard, atrocious also. What made him famous is his monstrously good and original ideas, which triumphed over all his narrative horrors.

caw

Jamesaritchie · Jan 8, 2015

blacbird said:
Lovecraft's non-dialogue prose (which is about 99% of his output) is, by almost any standard, atrocious also. What made him famous is his monstrously good and original ideas, which triumphed over all his narrative horrors.

caw

I wouldn't say it's atrocious, but, yeah, it's definitely way over the top, though I think he toned it down a bit toward the end of his career. Definitely not one of my favorite writers, but a lot of readers love his stories.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 8, 2015

gettingby, if you've never done so, and if you have a LOT of patience, you might try watching this series of videos by Robert Olen Butler, a Pulitzer Prize winning writer. He won it for his collection of short stories " A Good Scent from a Strange Mountain" in 1993. I think he's an excellent short story writer.

In this series, he writes a short story while explaining the process. You see his word processor screen as he's writing it.

For me, this is both infinitely boring, and infinitely fascinating. I'm glad I stuck with them, though. I learned a fair amount watching these videos, and that's rare these days. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=inside+creative+writing

gettingby · Jan 8, 2015

Jamesaritchie said:
gettingby, if you've never done so, and if you have a LOT of patience, you might try watching this series of videos by Robert Olen Butler, a Pulitzer Prize winning writer. He won it for his collection of short stories " A Good Scent from a Strange Mountain" in 1993. I think he's an excellent short story writer.

In this series, he writes a short story while explaining the process. You see his word processor screen as he's writing it.

For me, this is both infinitely boring, and infinitely fascinating. I'm glad I stuck with them, though. I learned a fair amount watching these videos, and that's rare these days. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=inside+creative+writing

I am familiar with Robert Olen Butler's work, but I hadn't heard about these videos. Thank you so much for telling me about them.

Messy drafts

Decker