How many POVs does it take to annoy you?

Flicka · Dec 4, 2014

Are you annoyed by too many POVs in a novel and if so, how many is "too many" according to you?

My current WIP – which for once, I am more or less pantsing – has turned out to have a number of POVs (I think I will end up with 9-10). Now, I know this is not unheard of, or speciul-speciul, but it's not too common, especially not in my genre which is historical fiction (not retelling actual events here, but more of a sort of political thriller/relationship drama centred around a fictional plot to murder Charles I mainly featuring made-up people against a backdrop of real historical events).

Anyway, it's written in close third, and POV is chapter by chapter or scene by scene. Also, each different POV has a pretty distinct voice (they are very different people). But it's not several stories, just one story told from several POVs (with x number of subplots).

The closest comparison I can think of would be GoT, and right now I've done like Martin and headlined each chapter/scene with the name of the POV character, but I also usually name them somewhere in the first three sentences to ground the reader. There should, I hope, be no confusion about whose POV you are in and I strictly stay in one POV all through a scene so NO hopping.

Also, I just want to say I'm not doing this because I want to "tell the reader everything". Rather, I'm trying keep the readers guessing how it all connects and what the agendas of some of the central characters are so I'm very wary about what information I give when (and choose POVs accordingly). There's lots of stuff going on, politically and personally, but it's all intertwined. It is a bit complex plotwise (think gambit pile-up), and lots of names in the beginning, but all in all, the same characters and basic plotlines keep popping up in all POVs.

I wasn't planning on doing this. It just happened. Right now I think it works and it more or less writes itself (also think it's by far the best I've written) but we'll see in 50,000 words if I still feel that way (currently about 12,500 words in). I think the changes in POV actually make the story feel like it's moving faster and keeps you on the edge of your seat. But it does make me antsy that it's a bit unorthodox.

Will it make the book a tougher sale, you think? If you can think of other books that have a similar approach, especially hist fic, or give me pointers about what I should be wary of, please go ahead. If you think "OMG, YOU ARE CRAZY; YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT MANY POVs" you may tell me so too. I'm curious about what you all think.

VeryBigBeard · Dec 4, 2014

Maybe because I grew up reading books with a lot of POVs written like you describe I've become densensitized to it. I honestly don't care that much. Even headhopping doesn't throw me as much as it does some people, which of course means I have to watch out for it in my own work that much more carefully. I usually catch it on second or third draft and then it's fine. It's not that hard to cull POVs later. Not as hard as you think, anyway.

In historical fantasy, Guy Gavriel Kay does this a lot. One of my favourite authors. Closer to omni at times than what yours sounds like, but he certainly isn't afraid to jump between them, even if most sections and scenes have a primary POV. The trick is when he does jump it's always obviously intentional and sometimes lends a scene a really interesting effect. I notice he does it a lot in battle scenes to play with cause and effect a bit.

Iain Banks' Transition is another one that comes to mind, not so much for distinctly mingling POVs (though there are at least 4-5) but more for how unreliable all of them are. The twist of that book is also highly linked to POV.

POV can be an interesting way to play with information and uncertainty. Just make sure you're in control of it. Control is much more important than an arbitrary number or rule.

Marlys · Dec 4, 2014

Nine or ten POV characters does seem like a lot. I think that number of POV characters works best when they're off doing things the other characters aren't involved in (as in much of Martin's series). If they're often together, your choice of POV might give away that you're choosing to hide info another character who's present knows.

How many of those 9-10 POV characters are MCs?

Osulagh · Dec 4, 2014

Depends. If done horrifically bad, a single POV can be too much. If done extremely well, then the sky is the limit.

If I can't connect with the character(s) or remember them at all, then it's a failure.

Side note: I think you mean limited third. A "close" POV doesn't mean you're staying to a single POV between breaks.

guttersquid · Dec 4, 2014

Flicka said:
I've . . . headlined each chapter/scene with the name of the POV character, but I also usually name them somewhere in the first three sentences to ground the reader.

Dean Koontz does this in 77 Shadow Street. The story concerns the many residents and employees of a luxury apartment building, and each character gets a POV, so the number of POVs really adds up. But it works just fine. No, it's not historical fiction, but I don't think that makes a difference.

CrastersBabies · Dec 4, 2014

Martin only had 7 in the first book. As the POVs grew, the books became more bloated, imho.

If you have 125,000 words in a fantasy book, for example, and 10 POVs, you're giving each POV an average of 12,500 words. (Taking into consideration that some will have more due to primary status.)

If you're okay spreading it that thin and are convinced you can get enough characterization in with each character, then it's really up to you.

Every person will have a different threshold for POVs, so asking folks will give you answers all over the spectrum. The question is, what does your story need?

MakanJuu · Dec 4, 2014

The amount doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when I'm either with a character I really like, or something really interesting is happening, and then chapter break and I'm stuck with someone I couldn't care less about.

Essentially--> :e2bike2:

Lissibith · Dec 4, 2014

One too many is too many.

How's THAT for helpful?

Sincerely though, the overall number doesn't matter. When they start feeling superfluous though, I get irritated. I want a story to be told using the fewest possible viewpoints needed to convey the information. Sometimes that's one. Sometimes it's 20.

As an example, a few months ago I read a book where a main character was worried that another character might be a spy, sharing info on their group's whereabouts. And the next chapter was from that other character's point of view, and the only real purpose of his 6-page chapter was to say "yes, yes he totally is."

It felt unneeded and tension-sapping.

rwm4768 · Dec 4, 2014

It depends on how well the author handles it and how much I like each POV character. That's part of the reason it takes me a while to read one of George RR Martin's books. Every time I see a Catelyn or Sansa chapter, I put the book down. (Well, not every time, but quite often.)

Flicka · Dec 4, 2014

Osulagh said:
Side note: I think you mean limited third. A "close" POV doesn't mean you're staying to a single POV between breaks.

"Limited" I took to be a distinction from "omniscient" which is a different thing altogether and means you have the POV of an omniscient storyteller all the time even though zooming in on different people. So since I have several POVs I thought it was obvious I meant limited third, but I could have messed up the terminology. Sorry about that.

Anyway, I mean close as opposed to distant. As in "very much under the skin, little filtering, straight in the characters head, speaking with his mouth", which is a different thing from writing in distant third person where you don't get as, well, close. Maybe it's not accepted usage, but I've seen "close" and "distant" third person tossed about so much I thought it was. That is what I meant, anyway. Close limited third person.

Marlys said:
Nine or ten POV characters does seem like a lot. I think that number of POV characters works best when they're off doing things the other characters aren't involved in (as in much of Martin's series). If they're often together, your choice of POV might give away that you're choosing to hide info another character who's present knows.

How many of those 9-10 POV characters are MCs?

Hmm... MCs? Two of the people that could be considered my MCs likely won't get a POV (in which case I'm at 8 altogther) but they are essentially the villains of the piece. My main MC gets a POV, and two other characters are also sorta MCs, and then there's the assassin who is sorta an MC too, considering his importance to the plot. I'd say there are three people who get POVs who I definitely wouldn't call MCs...

I think that when you get under the skin people from very different walks of life, the foreign world of the 17th century becomes much more vivid and 3D. So far, none of my characters agree on religion, politics or morals, and I rather like that. But I don't want you to feel like you just got interested in what was going on and then you are shipped off to something totally unrelated (the way I feel Martin sometimes does since he has at least three distinct plotlines), so I try to make sure they are all more like pieces of a puzzle – fitting together to form a coherent picture sorta.

CrastersBabies said:
Martin only had 7 in the first book. As the POVs grew, the books became more bloated, imho.

If you have 125,000 words in a fantasy book, for example, and 10 POVs, you're giving each POV an average of 12,500 words. (Taking into consideration that some will have more due to primary status.)

If you're okay spreading it that thin and are convinced you can get enough characterization in with each character, then it's really up to you.

Every person will have a different threshold for POVs, so asking folks will give you answers all over the spectrum. The question is, what does your story need?

Well, I think my story needs all of them, but I'd rather hear all the devil's advocates first before committing fully. That's why I asked. If people overwhelmingly say "I hate it" and I remain convinced then that's fine, but I would probably want to think it over one more time. And they will not all get equal shares. It will be very uneven. The emphasis will be on, I think, maybe 3 characters.

Characterisation isn't usually my problem. It's actually my strongest point (according to all feedback I've ever gotten), and so far, I think that part is working really well. I'm more worried about the plot. Plot is hard. It has to make sense! Very hard, trying to make things make sense, IMO.

Anyway, if I was a bit cockier I might post in SYW and get some hard feedback, but I'm afraid of jinxing my mojo with self-doubt so I think I'll wait until I have finished the first draft.

Brandon M Johnson · Dec 4, 2014

I'm actually reading Storm of Swords right now, so I've definitely been thinking about the whole "lots and lots of POV's" thing. It can clearly be done well, but one thing that's making Storm of Swords work for me, as Marlys pointed out, is that the characters are doing different things in different places. Regarding book one, Jon Snow is the only Night Watch POV; there was no need to have any more POV's there. Likewise, Tyrion gives us our only inside-view of House Lannister while also having a very distinctive voice from everyone else.

I guess the best advice for you would be: make all 9-10 characters people I'd want to spend time with.

blacbird · Dec 4, 2014

I can't provide an exact number, but the more there are, the greater is the challenge for me, as reader. I like to identify with POV characters, and that gets hard to maintain if there are a bunch of 'em. Even more so if the switches among POVs are frequent.

An additional challenge for the writer is making each of those POVs distinct and vivid for the reader. Again, the more you use, the more challenging that becomes.

As a final caution, beware of the temptation to switch POVs simply because it seems convenient at a particular story moment. If you are doing that in order to provide info to the reader, think long and hard about whether or not the reader actually needs that info, at that point of the story.

caw

Roxxsmom · Dec 4, 2014

Multiple point of view characters will start to annoy me if I think they aren't all moving the story forward, or if the POV switches happen at times or places that don't make sense to me. If I find myself wanting to skip one or more of them (oh, God, not this guy again), then it's annoying. If it feels like the writer has so many because they have to show me everything that's happening behind the scenes, or because they only want to scratch the surface of each character, then it probably won't be the story for me.

Some stories do work with several characters, though. I don't know that there's an absolute upper number, though ten sounds like a lot. I'll admit I've lost interest in ASoIaC somewhere during the third novel, because it was just getting to be too much to keep track of everyone. When I encounter a chapter or scene in a given character's pov, and I find myself wondering, "Who's this guy again?" then it's definitely too much.

LJD · Dec 4, 2014

42

(I don't know. I've never read a book and thought, "this has too many POVs!" I usually think in terms of too many storylines or subplots...)

Flicka · Dec 4, 2014

I have no idea how I counted last time, but it should be 8, not 9-10. Oops. And one character only gets one scene.

jjdebenedictis · Dec 4, 2014

Whether multiple POVs bother me really depends on the author. I can keep all the characters straight and enjoy multiple storylines in George R R Martin's books, but with some authors, I can't barely keep their characters' names straight even when there's only one POV.

Every character needs to have a function within the story that I can remember, much more than they need a name or an identifying physical description.

For example, when I read the last Song of Ice and Fire book, there were several times when I didn't remember a character by name, because it had been years since I read the previous book. However, within a page of beginning a chapter from their POV, I remembered exactly what role they played in the story and was happy to continue reading about them.

If every character has their own engaging goal to pursue, even if their storyline is just one small thread in the overarching plot, then I'm amenable to ending up in their head for a chapter every now and then, regardless of how many other characters' heads I wind up.

Ken · Dec 4, 2014

Ideally one. Two tops. That's just me though. As long as you manage the POVs okay I suppose there is no limit. Just tell your story in the way it needs to be told or in the way that the story is put across most effectively.

stumblebum · Dec 4, 2014

LJD said:
42

Brilliant!

Ahem. Martin's style bothered me enough that I dropped the series. Less is more. At a certain point, it no longer becomes a cohesive narrative. YMMV

Jamesaritchie · Dec 4, 2014

I'm not sure "annoyed" is the right word, but I don't like it when I'm not with the main character so infrequently that I lose interest in what happened to him. For me, it's more about story, and how much air time the main character receives. His part in the story is really why I'm reading, and how he ends the tale is what keeps me reading.

I've read books I completely enjoyed that had at least seven POVs, but I've found that more than five, in a fairly long novel, means I probably won't be spending enough time with the protagonist, unless the other POVs are kept to a short amount of air time.

Locke · Dec 4, 2014

There's only one way to find out...

More helpful answer: I'm with the "if done well" crowd. I'd get annoyed quicker if the head-swapping happened frequently (again, unless done well, such as an action sequence) or got in the way of pacing. I don't know, maybe if there's a lot of head-swapping then 3rd omniscient might not be a bad way to approach it.

Imbroglio · Dec 4, 2014

I really like stories with multiple points of view. One particular series that I enjoyed is Gone by Michael Grant, which is admittedly for a younger version of myself... but still, it handled a number of POVs similar to yours with grace and never irked me in the slightest. The POV shift, that is... not the series as a whole.

I echo James in saying that if you're breaking so long from a character that I lose interest in their activities, that's a problem. But otherwise, you should be fine.

Roxxsmom · Dec 4, 2014

One approach that has bugged me upon occasion is when there's a story that feels like it's going to be focused on one person. The first part of the novel is all in one pov, but just at the height of the honeymoon, a new one is added. This approach doesn't always bother me, but if the author does it, there'd better be a good reason to introduce a second important character (or to suddenly start bringing me into the head of someone who had been a secondary character up until then) so late in the game.

What I personally don't like are "one off" characters--one who have only one scene or chapter in the entire book. There's nearly always a way (in my opinion) to get the information shared through their eyes without doing this. Just my opinion, of course.

Tazlima · Dec 4, 2014

Roxxsmom said:
One approach that has bugged me upon occasion is when there's a story that feels like it's going to be focused on one person. The first part of the novel is all in one pov, but just at the height of the honeymoon, a new one is added. This approach doesn't always bother me, but if the author does it, there'd better be a good reason to introduce a second important character (or to suddenly start bringing me into the head of someone who had been a secondary character up until then) so late in the game.

What point in the story constitutes the "height of the honeymoon?"

Spy_on_the_Inside · Dec 4, 2014

I've read a few stories that take place from more than one POV. I would say for me, the magic number is three, but there is something even more important to me than the number of POVs. It's that each of the POVs has their own distinct tone. A shifting POV runs much smoother if it is very clear who's talking when.

Varthikes · Dec 4, 2014

As a reader, one POV doesn't bother me. Twenty POVs don't bother me.

As a writer, I'll use many POVs, including minor characters. From time to time, I like to experiment. Like in my last book, I wrote one scene from the POV of a dragon hatchling and that was the only time I wrote from his POV. Though, he was a minor character; I'll probably write more often from his POV in the next book when he has a larger role.

How many POVs does it take to annoy you?

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