Is the (fantasy) reading world ready for...

Every book finds it's own readership. It's this simple, and there's nothing that can be done about it. There's also no reason to write a book, or to not write a book, because of whether the world is "ready" for it. You write a book because it's the story you want to tell. What happens to the book after you write it is completely out of your control, whatever it's about.

Seriously, this is the last question you should ask or worry about. Who cares whether world is ready for it? Some people are, some people never will want to read it. Again, who cares? We all have our prejudices, and I admit to not being ready for a book where war is waged over cheery/vanilla ice cream versus strawberry ice cream. I come down firmly on the side of butter pecan, so I think the whole notion of fighting over cherry/vanilla or strawberry is silly. But if someone wants to write such a book, I say go for it.

The only question that matters is whether this is a book you really want to write. Readership is up to readers, not you. Your job is to write the book you most want to write, and forget about everything else.

Unless you don't like butter pecan. Then I hope your book fails miserably.

Phaeal said:

Last I heard, no one was ever beaten, shamed, needlessly treated, denied civil rights or killed for preferring cherry vanilla. Maybe I've just lived a very sheltered life, dessert-wise.

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But wouldn't it be nice if this were the only thing we fought over.

I hope so or else the entire central premise and relationship of my WIP is a waste of thought, effort and time and I should just give up writing fantasy right this instant.

But really, I'm pretty sure in the realm of fantasy literature same-sex romances by the central protagonist are not in any way a new or radical thing in 2014/15.

Michael Steven said:

Unfortunately, the sales figures show that strawberry ice cream sells by a 3:1 margin over cherry/vanilla. So they begin a campaign to educate the consumers. They lamblast those who like strawberry ice cream and praise those who like cherry/vanilla. Anyone who speaks up against cherry/vanilla or for strawberry are punished. Said punishment begins simply with a smear campaign, but eventually they get enough people on their side that they're able to bring financial grief to those who say they prefer strawberry.

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If I'm following this correctly: it sounds like what you're saying is that the media is campaigning to get readers to like LGBT characters (cherry-vanilla ice cream) by bashing straight characters (strawberry ice cream).

Except that's not even a little bit true, so the rest (the bit about people being afraid to admit their true preferences) really doesn't follow.

I've read a lot about this very thing when I realized that my story makes more sense with a bisexual protagonist.

Mostly, it doesn't seem to be an issue for many people, but I've gone through variety of book reviews (from readers, not critics) about books that contained a homosexual relationship with the protagonist, but weren't centered on romance (and hence it wasn't clearly stated in the blurb or on the cover). Flame happens, some people get outraged, and spew out 1 star reviews.

I think you should write whatever the story calls for, but have a few shrugs ready to use when one of those appears under your story.

Calliea said:

Flame happens, some people get outraged, and spew out 1 star reviews.

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I've bought a number of books based on the content of their one-star reviews. Reviewer: "I CAN'T BELIEVE THE AUTHOR DID THIS!" Me: "Oh, goody! <clickandbuy />"

No matter what you write, you're going to tick somebody off; but remember: they might end up making you a sale anyway.

I prefer lesbian characters.

lizmonster said:

I've bought a number of books based on the content of their one-star reviews. Reviewer: "I CAN'T BELIEVE THE AUTHOR DID THIS!" Me: "Oh, goody! <clickandbuy />"

No matter what you write, you're going to tick somebody off; but remember: they might end up making you a sale anyway.

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Hah, I suppose that's true

But if someone is anything like me, they'd still go sadpanda over every bad review. Does our sensitive kind well to know what we might get raged at, and start growing the thicker skin way before the blow comes

I personally only read 1 star reviews. If what they whine about doesn't bother me/I actually enjoy, I got great chances of being happy with the thing. Meanwhile those 5 stars might often be fake, and even more often focus on generic praise. Which is absolutely great and authors and creators of all kinds need them, but for me, as a potential consumer, they tell much less The high rating they give, on the other hand, absolutely matters.

But I'm digressing, sorry! Off I go now.

I like spumoni.

Michael Steven said:

You seriously expect to get their true thoughts?

*weird ice cream analogy here*

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I've typed about three overly snide responses and then deleted them. Wow.

Just...wow.

I'm just gonna hope you were going for something else and expressing it poorly.

Wow.

Michael Steven said:

You seriously expect to get their true thoughts?
...

It's an amazing coincidence that when you punish people for saying what they think, that you suddenly get them to say what you want to hear.

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Huh? I don't know what this post is trying to say, but maybe I'm misreading it, because it sounds a bit insulting to other people posting in this thread (I'm sure that's not what you meant, as we're all supposed to RYFW here). Are you implying the AW members commenting here aren't giving their true thoughts on the matter? I don't see anything to suggest anyone was lying here. I definitely gave my honest opinion--that there are plenty of mainstream fantasy writers who write stories with same-sex relationships in them. Neither I nor anyone else tried to say what percentage of published fantasy includes such themes or to tell the OP what they should prefer personally. If he's asking about writing a book with a same-sex couple in it, I assume he's interested in also reading such books, however.

The point is, it does not appear that such a relationship has been categorically taboo to publishers of mainstream fantasy for well over 30 years.

Robin Hobb also has a M/M couple (one of the two men was a pov character) in her Rain Wilds series, and one of her characters in the Fitz and Fool books (the Fool) lies outside the strict gender binary.

If she's not mainstream fantasy, I don't know who is.

ViridianChick said:

Except that's not even a little bit true, so the rest (the bit about people being afraid to admit their true preferences) really doesn't follow.

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Yep. The frothy, one-star reviews mentioned in other posts strongly suggests that people who dislike same sex relationships in novels don't feel a particular need to, um, hide their views either.

There will be some readers who dislike this, but there will also be readers who seek your story out (if it's well done, of course), because they're enjoy seeing people who are like them, or they enjoy seeing characters who are like people they know and love in real life, represented.

Roxxsmom said:

There will be some readers who dislike this, but there will also be readers who seek your story out (if it's well done, of course), because they're enjoy seeing people who are like them, or they enjoy seeing characters who are like people they know and love in real life, represented.

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And also those who simply want to explore different dynamics and possibilities. No matter how girly your shy boy is, or how tomboyish the feisty girl, they will never be exactly like characters of the other sex in realistic writing (or any other sex), and I find it simply more entertaining to see all variety of personalities, relationships, and complications that may arise from veering away from the standard dynamics mentioned somewhere earlier in this topic

Little Ming said:

I like spumoni.

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There aren't many flavors in lactose free ice cream, so I don't have a wide range of choices. I wish they made spumoni lactose free.

Chunky monkey.

I got parachuted into the middle of the Flavour Wars back in '99. We came right down in a field of bones. Strawberry fans unfortunate enough to have been born in a Chocolate valley, rounded up like animals, the menfolk shot, women and girls violated, babies drowned in vats of Triple Choc Swirl. The grand Neapolitan experiment (still reflected in the colours of the country's pink, white and brown flag) was never more than a sick joke. A utopia on ice, a thin rainbow coat of paint over a thousand years of internecine sugary confection-based hatred.

My upcoming Lioness has a young M/M relationship. A girl beta reader called their emerging love adorable. It's not erotica, so that made me happy.
May I have my ice cream chocolate with lots of whipped cream and those little nutty bits on top?

I'm sure there's a market for it and I'm also sure that there are people who won't mind it being there whether or not they share that sexual orientation.
I personally wouldn't buy a fantasy novel where the main character was a male homosexual. Not that I have anything against homosexual people, because I don't---I feel they should have all the rights and recognitions that everyone else has. But on a gut level, beyond the intellectual, I find male-male homosexual sex distasteful to think about...it leaves a feeling like eating something bitter. I don't like watching it and I don't want to read about it.
Female-female homosexuality doesn't affect me that way, although it doesn't titillate me the way it does some men either. I still count Stirling's Island in the Sea of Time series as one of my favorite book series, despite the fact that the main character is a lesbian. It doesn't bother me, it's just sort of there.
Shrug. Maybe I'm not enlightened enough for some, but there it is.

RikWriter said:

I'm sure there's a market for it and I'm also sure that there are people who won't mind it being there whether or not they share that sexual orientation.
I personally wouldn't buy a fantasy novel where the main character was a male homosexual. Not that I have anything against homosexual people, because I don't---I feel they should have all the rights and recognitions that everyone else has. But on a gut level, beyond the intellectual, I find male-male homosexual sex distasteful to think about...it leaves a feeling like eating something bitter. I don't like watching it and I don't want to read about it.
Female-female homosexuality doesn't affect me that way, although it doesn't titillate me the way it does some men either. I still count Stirling's Island in the Sea of Time series as one of my favorite book series, despite the fact that the main character is a lesbian. It doesn't bother me, it's just sort of there.
Shrug. Maybe I'm not enlightened enough for some, but there it is.

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IOW, "To each his own, it's just not my thing," which I don't think would have riled people like the post that basically said everyone is being forced to pretend they like teh gay.




Also, my favorite flavor is vanilla. Stop shaming me, you chunky monkey pervs!

I never thought a thread about whether the world is ready for a gay protagonist in fantasy would make me hungry, but I'm gonna take a break and go get some ice cream.

Michael Steven said:

You seriously expect to get their true thoughts?

Imagine for a minute that someone did a poll about which people like better: cherry/vanilla ice cream or strawberry ice cream. Let's say the results came back that 75% prefer strawberry.

Now let's say a group gets hold of the poll and decide that it's wrong that stores carry only strawberry ice cream simply because it sells better. So they begin a campaign to force the stores to carry equal amounts of both and they succeed.

Unfortunately, the sales figures show that strawberry ice cream sells by a 3:1 margin over cherry/vanilla. So they begin a campaign to educate the consumers. They lamblast those who like strawberry ice cream and praise those who like cherry/vanilla. Anyone who speaks up against cherry/vanilla or for strawberry are punished. Said punishment begins simply with a smear campaign, but eventually they get enough people on their side that they're able to bring financial grief to those who say they prefer strawberry.

Eventually the polls show that 95% say they prefer cherry/vanilla ice cream over strawberry. With big grins they collect sales data from the stores and the grins fade. Strawberry ice cream now sells by a 5:1 margin over cherry/vanilla.

It's an amazing coincidence that when you punish people for saying what they think, that you suddenly get them to say what you want to hear.

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Like everybody else, I'm trying to figure out where the hell you're going with this. It was a perfectly innocuous question, brought on the OP wondering how same sex couples are perceived in sf/f. Considering the changing social landscape in general, it's perfectly valid.

RikWriter said:

I personally wouldn't buy a fantasy novel where the main character was a male homosexual. Not that I have anything against homosexual people, because I don't---I feel they should have all the rights and recognitions that everyone else has. But on a gut level, beyond the intellectual, I find male-male homosexual sex distasteful to think about...it leaves a feeling like eating something bitter. I don't like watching it and I don't want to read about it.

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Yeah, because that's all same-sex relationships are about is who's fucking who. Open a novel with gay and lesbian characters and it's just one big goddamned orgy from page 1 to the end of the book. Look out! It's PEEN from stem to stern!

Please. Spare me the "I don't have anything against..." bullshit. Yes, there are books of erotica or downright porn out there but you're painting a subgenre with a WIDE, ugly brush.

Michael Steven said:

You seriously expect to get their true thoughts?


It's an amazing coincidence that when you punish people for saying what they think, that you suddenly get them to say what you want to hear.

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To be fair, this is certainly true with some people. It's pretty common. But the one thing no one can accuse me of is saying what someone else wants to hear, rather than what I really think, punishment be damned.

I don't read gay/lesbian fiction because it does not, in any way, ring my bell. Nor can I see myself reading a novel about a gay or lesbian protagonist. But I have read and enjoyed novels with a gay protagonist, if you understand the difference.

There's a market, a readership, any any good, well-told story. It doesn't have to please everyone, and it's no one's business what I do or don'r read, and none of my business what someone else does or doesn't read.

BenPanced said:

Yeah, because that's all same-sex relationships are about is who's fucking who. Open a novel with gay and lesbian characters and it's just one big goddamned orgy from page 1 to the end of the book. Look out! It's PEEN from stem to stern!

Please. Spare me the "I don't have anything against..." bullshit. Yes, there are books of erotica or downright porn out there but you're painting a subgenre with a WIDE, ugly brush.

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Actually, no, I'm not. You're painting me with a wide, ugly brush without much in the way of a reason. I figured someone would come along and do that, but frankly I don't care all that much. One of the great things about being middle aged is you stop caring about the opinions of people you have no reason to respect.

RikWriter said:

But on a gut level, beyond the intellectual, I find male-male homosexual sex distasteful to think about...it leaves a feeling like eating something bitter. I don't like watching it and I don't want to read about it.

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I don't recall the OP even saying there was any sex in the story, just that there was a love interest. Love interest may or may not lead to the characters having sex, and if that sex happens it may or may not be described. Unless I missed something, I think you're making a big assumption to suggest that gay love interest means explicitly described sex.

virtue_summer said:

I don't recall the OP even saying there was any sex in the story, just that there was a love interest. Love interest may or may not lead to the characters having sex, and if that sex happens it may or may not be described. Unless I missed something, I think you're making a big assumption to suggest that gay love interest means explicitly described sex.

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I am not making that assumption, I am stating honestly my reaction when I pick up a book in the store or read the summary on Amazon and see it's got a male same-sex love interest. It may or may not have sex scenes, but my reaction when I see that is to put the book back on the shelf or move on to the next one on Amazon. I was explaining why.
Would you rather I lied to you and said "I always give the book a shot on the chance there isn't a sex scene?" Sorry, that wouldn't be honest.
It's how I feel. You won't change my mind by arguing with me and you certainly won't "shame" me into feeling differently. I was only saying it to let the OP know that, although there is a definite market, they might lose some sales. Nothing more.