Is the (fantasy) reading world ready for...

RikWriter said:

Actually, no, I'm not. You're painting me with a wide, ugly brush without much in the way of a reason. I figured someone would come along and do that, but frankly I don't care all that much. One of the great things about being middle aged is you stop caring about the opinions of people you have no reason to respect.

Click to expand...

My reason is this post:

virtue_summer said:

I don't recall the OP even saying there was any sex in the story, just that there was a love interest. Love interest may or may not lead to the characters having sex, and if that sex happens it may or may not be described. Unless I missed something, I think you're making a big assumption to suggest that gay love interest means explicitly described sex.

Click to expand...

Almost every single time somebody posts "I don't have anything against gay men" on AW, I can always, always count on the "but..." And this was one of them. There is always the assumption that whenever there are gay characters in a book, a movie, or a TV show, it's always going to be about gay sex. Period. No story, no character development, no romantic involvement. Why is it? Why is there always that assumption? Why is it if I put a picture of my partner on my desk, there'll be somebody to come along, point at it, and yell, "HOW DARE YOU FLAUNT YOUR SEX LIFE!" It's just a picture of my partner. There's no indication in the picture whatsoever what we do in the bedroom. He's just sitting there in front of the camera, wearing a nice shirt and tie, and smiling. (Even better: how can you make the assumption we even have sex?) I don't do that to people who have pictures of their children on their desks. Every time I meet a straight couple, I never, ever assume anything about their sex life unless they offer details.

Why is it that some straight people always have to make the connection "gay = BUTTSECKS = teh squick" when none was mentioned? Why is there an implication? Please. Tell me. Especially since in your post you mention you're uncomfortable with gay men because that automatically means gay sex but it's perfectly fine for a character to be a lesbian. Sounds like you're diminishing one to diminish the other even more.

This thread has been very enlightening. I honestly hadn't been aware there was so much already written that touches upon the subject.

Which I think goes to the point that it ISNT being pushed on anyone by anyone.

You know, it could just be greater awareness, but I feel like lately I've actually had a much easier time finding fantasy with gay men in it. Not always front and center, but definitely there, and in the actual text rather than in the subtext. If it is a trend, I very much hope it continues.

I wouldn't be bothered by a fantasy novel with a gay relationship in it. I read a lot of ancient Greek HF, and I've shed my fair share of tears over M/M love stories*. The unrequited kind, the tragic kind, the suppressed, thwarted and generally doomed to end badly kind. I don't think I've ever read a M/M love story that ended well, actually... but maybe that's because I don't read same sex romance. It just isn't my thing. I'm primarily interested in story and characters, whether there is a romantic subplot or not. So, give me an engaging and exciting tale with emotional depth, and I don't care whether the main character is gay, or the central relationship is same sex.

*ETA: I just remembered - when I read Captain Corelli's Mandolin, I cried buckets over Carlo's story. I found his unrequited love for Corelli much more moving than the main love story between Corelli and Pelagia. I was SO MAD when they excluded that from the film. I just felt like it made the story so 2 dimensional.

Jamesaritchie said:

I never thought a thread about whether the world is ready for a gay protagonist in fantasy would make me hungry, but I'm gonna take a break and go get some ice cream.

Click to expand...

I'll take a mint chocolate chip. yanno...while you're out and all....

This thread reminded me of a bizarre kinda-argument I was half-involved with on another forum about straight men going mental over the non-explicit Renly/Loras shaving scene in GOT because 'EW THE GAY!' yet had absolutely no problems with the explicit-not-even-between-named-characters lesbian sex that was going on while Littlefinger was banging on about something.

*sigh*

Also, I thought of Ned/Gabe in Anne Lyle's books.

Also, also, I second mint choc chip.

Looking at the discussion breaking out, maybe the question is whether fantasy is ready for an asexual protagonist, since apparently thinking about the protagonist having sex is critical to the experience of some readers!

...brb, changing WIP.

RikWriter said:

I was only saying it to let the OP know that, although there is a definite market, they might lose some sales. Nothing more.

Click to expand...

And on the flip side, OP, you might gain some. Seeing a same-sex love interest in a book piques my interest. Seeing an opposite-sex love interest in a book (unless it's being addressed nontraditionally in some way) is a detraction for me. Reason being, I don't particularly like reading about romance (just my personal taste), but I do like reading about the diversity of human experience, and we're so bathed in traditional vanilla opposite-sex romance tropes all the time that I find them usually rather boring and one-note. Whereas a nontraditional straight romance, a same-sex romance, or no romance suggests to me that I might see something different, and thus I'm more likely to buy.

A same-sex love interest also makes me feel secure that the author has an interest in diversity, and I have increasingly limited patience for picking up a book that is all cishet white people all the time as if nobody else exists. It makes me feel invisible and erased, and I don't like reading it. I don't need to see someone specifically like me in books, but I want to see a wide array of different kinds of people like there are in the real world, not to have myself and most of my friends made to not exist.

I've started knocking anything that doesn't have an obviously diverse cast down farther on my TBR list in favor of books that do, just because I'm so sick of being swatted in the face so many times with male gaze / racism / erasure / etc., and picking up books to read only to put them down after three chapters in frustration.

RedWombat said:

Looking at the discussion breaking out, maybe the question is whether fantasy is ready for an asexual protagonist, since apparently thinking about the protagonist having sex is critical to the experience of some readers!

...brb, changing WIP.

Click to expand...

Hurr. As mentioned, I am personally not a fan of reading romance, and part of my rebellion with my own series is that my MC pretty much never thinks about sex. (I think she might be somewhere on the asexuality spectrum, in fact.) And I've had people thank me for that, because it's sort of the default that every MC **MUST** be set up to have a love interest, which I hate, and apparently other people are tired of it, too. Not that there's anything wrong with love interests, at all, but when it feels like it's a requirement it starts to get wearing.

(Of course, this hasn't stopped readers from pairing my MC with literally every male main character, but that's fine. It amuses me.)

You know, I was reading reviews of The Deeds of Paksenarrion yesterday. One reviewer not only had an issue with the fact that men and women were soldiers together and it wasn't a big deal, but also stated that it was "unrealistic" for Paks to not have a sexual bone in her body. Another reviewer actually used the word asexual to describe her, but apparently that was a sign she wasn't flawed enough as a character.

My MMC is something of a demisexual, which classically isn't so unusual for male fantasy heroes, but he comes from a decadent, highly sexual culture, so he gets more side-eyes than a gay man would. At least gay men want to sleep with somebody.

Dreity said:

You know, I was reading reviews of The Deeds of Paksenarrion yesterday. One reviewer not only had an issue with the fact that men and women were soldiers together and it wasn't a big deal, but also stated that it was "unrealistic" for Paks to not have a sexual bone in her body. Another reviewer actually used the word asexual to describe her, but apparently that was a sign she wasn't flawed enough as a character.

My MMC is something of a demisexual, which classically isn't so unusual for male fantasy heroes, but he comes from a decadent, highly sexual culture, so he gets more side-eyes than a gay man would. At least gay men want to sleep with somebody.

Click to expand...

Why is Captain Jack Harkness coming to mind? (John Barrowman?) I love these types of characters.

Unless a book is marketed as erotica I don't "expect" graphic sex (and if it is, I don't read what I'm not into). I am fine if there is some, but may skim if it is the sort of sex that does not float my boat. Which includes some het acts too, because we all have stuff where we're not that keen.

It's not going to make me fling the book (unless the sex is graphic rape, and then you'll be hearing from me, quite vocally, especially if it is presented titillatingly)

Most people who will complain about a gay sex scene would complain about *any* sex scene (had those reviews -- this book has too much sex and swearing in it -- it had one non graphic sex scene, and a few implied...). You may get a few extras people who won't read. Some people aren't going to be our audience, and that's fine. No book, in the history of the world, pleases every reader.

But OP, I think there are enough people who would not be fazed in the slightest by a gay MC in a fantasy for it to be viable.

PS guys, raspberry ripple!

One thing I have noticed about sf/f is that it can be used as a metaphor for "being other". Your witch/elf/dragon/dwarf/android/shaved rabbit warrior can stand in for various aspects of humanity and if done well, it can impart your message.

I don't have ice cream, but I just remembered I have some orange sherbet in the freezer. Maybe that'll help settle my stomach down.

One of the great things about SFF (especially second world or far future) is that you can talk about it without any of the baggage - ie without any of the same preconceptions.

CrastersBabies said:

Why is Captain Jack Harkness coming to mind? (John Barrowman?) I love these types of characters.

Click to expand...

They've both got swagger, for sure, but MMC isn't much of a flirt. It won't come up until later books, but once, when questioned on his lack of skirt-chasing, he responded with, "I like swords." Unfortunately, the wink he added wasn't interpreted quite as intended, and he had to disappoint several hopeful men over the next few months. He really is married to his work.

Mr Flibble said:

One of the great things about SFF (especially second world or far future) is that you can talk about it without any of the baggage - ie without any of the same preconceptions.

Click to expand...

And that's been one of the main focuses/considerations of the genre is the exploration on how things are different in the future or in an alternate universe or a mythical glen that you can only get to through the back of the wardrobe. You can look at current societal norms and deviations, and how they play against the universe the author's created. Certain things we would take for granted in the year 3036 are either unheard of or just notes in somebody's ledger today.

Dreity said:

They've both got swagger, for sure, but MMC isn't much of a flirt. It won't come up until later books, but once, when questioned on his lack of skirt-chasing, he responded with, "I like swords." Unfortunately, the wink he added wasn't interpreted quite as intended, and he had to disappoint several hopeful men over the next few months. He really is married to his work.

Click to expand...

i liek sereel

BenPanced said:

My reason is this post:

Almost every single time somebody posts "I don't have anything against gay men" on AW, I can always, always count on the "but..." And this was one of them. There is always the assumption that whenever there are gay characters in a book, a movie, or a TV show, it's always going to be about gay sex. Period. No story, no character development, no romantic involvement. Why is it? Why is there always that assumption? Why is it if I put a picture of my partner on my desk, there'll be somebody to come along, point at it, and yell, "HOW DARE YOU FLAUNT YOUR SEX LIFE!"

Click to expand...

Yep. Waiting for someone to make the same kinds of statement often see made about gay characters about straight characters.


I'm alright with straight characters in stories, so long as their straightness isn't rubbed in my face, and so long as there's a good reason for them to be straight. Like if the monster the male protagonist has to get past is an incubus who wants to seduce him, but he's a straight guy, then obviously his orientation is going to advance the plot. But otherwise, why call attention to his straight lifestyle? I don't want to know what the character does with his/her junk! Including straight characters and straight romances for no plot-driven reason is just the author making a political statement.

But seriously, this is a flipped version of an argument I've seen over and over in threads where someone asks if they "should" have gay or lesbian character in their story (similar arguments are also made re not mentioning the race or skin color of a character in a story unless it's important to the plot).

To be fair, I don't think anyone in this thread is doing that.

Though there are plenty of novels that are neither erotica nor genre romances that do have fairly explicit "straight" sex scenes. My basic rule would be sauce for the goose and gander here. If I'd show an opposite-sex couple in the bedroom in a given part of the story, I'll show it if they're same sex too and make it no more or less explicit than I would for the "straight" couple. Some people won't like it, but then, some people prefer stories none of the straight characters have sex either. Some people hate dragons. Some people hate grimdark. Some people hate swearing in fantasy.

Some people even hate coffee heath bar crunch ice cream, which is even more puzzling. Puzzling but fortunate, because they leave more for me that way.

I cannot believe where this thread has gone! The crazy things people are saying - it's just not right, people!

Chocolate marble has always been, and will always be, the best ice cream ever! You got your vanilla, and you got your fudge - what more could you possibly want? (Sadly, nobody seems to make it anymore...)

Peanut butter ruins everything it touches.

I realize this may be a controversial opinion. But I have the free thinking mind not to be swayed by the liberal media! I am not afraid to have differing opinions!

And I like to put cake icing on my non-peanut butter ice cream goddammit

buzhidao said:

Peanut butter ruins everything it touches.

I realize this may be a controversial opinion. But I have the free thinking mind not to be swayed by the liberal media! I am not afraid to have differing opinions!

Click to expand...

You are dead to me.

I am a pan-gourmand with eclectic tastes, so what I like can change hourly. In fiction, as well as ice cream.

buzhidao said:

Peanut butter ruins everything it touches.

I realize this may be a controversial opinion. But I have the free thinking mind not to be swayed by the liberal media! I am not afraid to have differing opinions!

Click to expand...

I am shocked and appalled.