The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

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Orianna2000

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Thank you, Chase! I've rewritten the scene accordingly. I appreciate the help!
 

Chase

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Hoping you firearm experts will take a moment to eyeball this description of my MC getting nailed by a rifle bullet and let me know if it is accurate. The shooter is roughly four yards away.

Thanks much!

The bullet hit him center-chest. The ballistic vest redistributed the impact in a gripping pressure that rippled around his torso. Noise from the blast punched out his hearing. It came back in stinging waves.

Wow! Four yards! For sure the blast to the ears from that range would deafen and hurt, though my experience with muzzle blast (from the side) has been an ache when hearing returns several minutes later. Nothing stung, as I recall, and certainly not waves of stinging.

However, I think the ear problem may be the least of the victim's experience. Only very recently has body armor with overlapping ceramic plating been able to withstand even medium rifle fire. Most vests are designed to reduce the effects of pistol (and submachine-gun) bullets.

Even then, most of us who've been struck by such bullets feel as if struck by hard blows with hammers, and many go down, as if they were. I could hardly breathe or feel anything but numb.

A rifle bullet at muzzle velocity and pressure would be difficult to survive, I think, much less allow the victim to appreciate pressure and ripple on one's torso, unless the body armor were super-duper state of the art.

Of course, never having been hit center-chest by rifle fire at close range, I'm only able to guess.
 

Cwm

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Wow! Four yards! For sure the blast to the ears from that range would deafen and hurt, though my experience with muzzle blast (from the side) has been an ache when hearing returns several minutes later. Nothing stung, as I recall, and certainly not waves of stinging.

However, I think the ear problem may be the least of the victim's experience. Only very recently has body armor with overlapping ceramic plating been able to withstand even medium rifle fire. Most vests are designed to reduce the effects of pistol (and submachine-gun) bullets.

Even then, most of us who've been struck by such bullets feel as if struck by hard blows with hammers, and many go down, as if they were. I could hardly breathe or feel anything but numb.

A rifle bullet at muzzle velocity and pressure would be difficult to survive, I think, much less allow the victim to appreciate pressure and ripple on one's torso, unless the body armor were super-duper state of the art.

Of course, never having been hit center-chest by rifle fire at close range, I'm only able to guess.

Aha -- very useful, Chase ... I don't write specifically how close the MC is to the shooter when she nails him, but it's a fair approximation. Sounds like I need to switch to another weapon...

The scenario is, the baddie is holed up in a church with the MC's family and other hostages. Small Southern town, rules get bent -- he's going in to negotiate.

She (baddie) works for the Sheriff's Department, so I can switch her to another weapon, no prob. Be easy enough for her to get her hands on illegal machine guns.

I'll do a rewrite and revisit you. Hope you don't mind!

Thanks so much!
 

Chase

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She (baddie) works for the Sheriff's Department, so I can switch her to another weapon, no prob. Be easy enough for her to get her hands on illegal machine guns.

I'll do a rewrite and revisit you. Hope you don't mind!

I don't mind at all and hope to be helpful. On that note, I'm adding some info about sub-machine guns you may find useful:

They aren't illegal per se. I know several who own them and fire them at ranges. Ownership requires a vigorous background check by BATF and payment of a heavy tax.

If one goes by TV scenes, several law-enforcement officers are gunned down by sub-machine guns in the hands of bad guys and gals every day. However, last time I was privy to the statistics, not one death of a U.S. law enforcement officer has been attributed to full-automatic fire in the last 80 years. Zero. Nada. Not even one. If those stats have been upgraded, I can't find the instances.

Dramatic as it may be, you might want to tread lightly in depicting what has to be extremely rare attempted murder by machine gun. Just sayin'.
 
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Cwm

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I'm now leaning toward having her take an MP5 from the Sheriff's Department where she works (prior to going rogue).

I'm checking 'round here and some do use 'em. A SWAT vest should be able to stop 9mm rounds, right? But I'm thinking it wouldn't hurt to give them a little more distance to lessen the impact.

In my WIP, one law enforcement officer gets gunned down, but it's by one of her guys waving around a .38, not by her. (Guy's an idiot and the officer was in the wrong place at the wrong time.) Totally get what you are saying about treading lightly.

Again -- your help is much appreciated!
 

Chase

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A SWAT vest should be able to stop 9mm rounds, right? But I'm thinking it wouldn't hurt to give them a little more distance to lessen the impact.


Right. Always being aware that videos can be altered to amaze and confound, here is what's purported to be an actual strike from the front by a 9mm on a Kevlar vest (which looks less than SWAT quality).


If this idiot and his attempted-manslaughter-for-fun friend are real, you may get some ideas for your scene.


http://www.break.com/index/bulletproof-vest-test-goes-wrong.html


Thank you, Chase! I've rewritten the scene accordingly. I appreciate the help!

You're very welcome; thanks for the rep. The nice thing about asking questions on a public forum is someone will be along to verify, add something I didn't cover, or shoot me down in flames. It's all good for helping our writing about firearms.
 

Cwm

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Right. Always being aware that videos can be altered to amaze and confound, here is what's purported to be an actual strike from the front by a 9mm on a Kevlar vest (which looks less than SWAT quality).


If this idiot and his attempted-manslaughter-for-fun friend are real, you may get some ideas for your scene.


http://www.break.com/index/bulletproof-vest-test-goes-wrong.html

Holy sheee-eet... Got to say the video looks like it could have been shot around here. Background appears to be pecan trees and farm buildings typical to my neck of the woods. Accents stand up, too (won't even mention the behavior, jeez).

Regardless of whether the video is real, I do have one last thought about the guys who made it: If brains was dynamite, them boys wouldn't have enough to blow their noses, haha.

Sure do appreciate your help!
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Ask the Gun Nut

Mods, please move if need be. This looked like a good place.

I figured there might be an interest in this. Lots of people want to use firearms, but they are a technical subject and it's better to use them right rather than rely on handwavium.

Me: 25 years Army and AF, 25 years of Expert ratings on rifle, Expert on pistol every time I needed to qualify. Served now and then as armorer and weapons courier.

I test and review firearms and accessories for manufacturers, and my articles reach 300,000 readers or more, sometimes over a million with reprints.

I've consulted for several media productions and offer paid professional advice to some clients.




I'm a part time gunsmith and build custom weapons from raw stock and commercial parts:




The steampunk AK47...1847
AKSteamK.jpg


My standard AK:
AKOAL.jpg


My wife's milspec carbine so she can stay in practice between active duty cycles:
CarbineMrs-1.jpg


My daughter made Time Mag and Der View with hers:
tip_ny_0406_03.jpg


My boy's will turn into a skateboard when I'm done. ;)
AutobotsM4-1.jpg


Sometimes I get something 100 years old and beat to hell that I can salvage and update:
stockinlet.jpg


Or assemble from 3 parts guns for $75 and some stock work:
GEW88OAL.jpg


And I built this, because the zombies ain't gonna shoot themselves:
browningwhite.jpg


morriganprep.jpg


And then sometimes I get stuff in from the US Civil War and slightly after:

Remmy-1.jpg


Hopkins.jpg


SmithLeft.jpg


So if you're using firearms in a story, I can probably offer input, or refer you to a useful source. This includes summaries of how to legally acquire them, which depends on if they're Antique, Curio and Relic, Modern, Title II, Imported and such little things as Section 922(r).

Because people who know guns will read your story and will sneer if you assume something you saw on TV is real.;)

I'll check in daily.
 
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MacAllister

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Very cool. :) I'm just gonna give the thread a lift over to Story Research - and I love the pics, thanks for posting!
 

Drachen Jager

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There's already a thread The Firearms Thread, perhaps a mod will incorporate this into that one. There's a surprising number of ex-military types around here actually.
 

MoLoLu

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No questions on guns but I want to say that's a damn great offer you make!
 

Drachen Jager

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Well, I do have a question about guns, unfortunately, not about anything listed above.

Do you know anything about the operation of stun guns?

What do you need to know? A Taser fires two metal darts, each attached to a wire which leads it to the 'gun' unit. The hand-held part has a battery and a large capacitor which allows it to build up the necessary charge to 'stun' a subject.

It does NOT knock people unconscious like you see in the movies, only makes them convulse. When the trigger is released the convulsing stops and the subject normally recovers quite quickly (unless they have a heart-attack and die that is).
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Well, I do have a question about guns, unfortunately, not about anything listed above.

Do you know anything about the operation of stun guns?

That depends on if you mean a stun gun (held in contact) or a taser (shoots darts).

In either case, the disabling force is high-voltage, very low amperage current designed to inhibit the neurological system, though lower power ones only inflict pain.

Tasers use a low power propellant or sometimes compressed gas to shoot the darts. They are specifically designed so they cannot be made to shoot lethal projectiles.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Here's a mildly weird question: what would a 19th century (circa 1850) muzzle-loader paper cartridge taste like when you used your teeth to tear it open?

As far as I can tell the paper was impregnated with chemicals and they were often sealed shut with fat, so I'm presuming the simple answer is 'pretty bad', but if anyone's used one for real I'd be interested to know a more precise answer.

I've made some. Greasy, slightly bitter and salty from the powder, and cardboardy, of course.

Originally Posted by Rowan


On another note: What are the most common gun-related mistakes you see in movies or read in books?

People buying handguns in stores in Chicago (though that's starting to change).

"You look like you've got an honest face, so I'll just skip the paperwork." When the annual ATF inspection occurs, that will lose your license, permanently. Stores sometimes get shut down just for (literally) failing to spell a town name correctly.

Anyone being blown back by being shot.

Machine guns that have 20 rounds on the belt, equating to two seconds or so of fire, shooting for 3 minutes. Ditto for mag fed select fire weapons that run more than 3 seconds on auto.
 

underthecity

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That depends on if you mean a stun gun (held in contact) or a taser (shoots darts).

In either case, the disabling force is high-voltage, very low amperage current designed to inhibit the neurological system, though lower power ones only inflict pain.

Tasers use a low power propellant or sometimes compressed gas to shoot the darts. They are specifically designed so they cannot be made to shoot lethal projectiles.
Thank you for the information, drachen and Michael. I needed that correction for my story.

In the story, the (evil) character uses a Taser (not the stun gun I thought it was) on the good character. She shoots the gun (Taser) and the dart sticks in the other character. After a dramatic pause, she sends the voltage. (That's how it's written. It's probably wrong.)

So, there are two darts? Why two?

How do they stick in?

Does the voltage get sent immediately, or can a dramatic pause occur? In that, I mean, is there a second button on the Taser?

And can they be yanked out to be used again and again?

Will the battery wear down quickly or slowly? In the story, she uses the Taser several times, but the last time, the batteries are dead. Plausible?
 
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MichaelZWilliamson

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Thank you for the information, drachen and Michael. I needed that correction for my story.

In the story, the (evil) character uses a Taser (not the stun gun I thought it was) on the good character. She shoots the gun (Taser) and the dart sticks in the other character. After a dramatic pause, she sends the voltage. (That's how it's written. It's probably wrong.)

So, there are two darts? Why two?

How do they stick in?

Does the voltage get sent immediately, or can a dramatic pause occur? In that, I mean, is there a second button on the Taser?

And can they be yanked out to be used again and again?

Will the battery wear down quickly or slowly? In the story, she uses the Taser several times, but the last time, the batteries are dead. Plausible?

Two darts and wires for current flow. Yes, first you shoot it, then you trigger the jolt. You can also (depending on model) arc across the terminals for a warning, or just use it as a stun gun without shooting.

It's a one time use weapon. The darts stick in the flesh--they're small needles.
taserdarts_300.jpg


You don't reuse them, though I'm sure in theory you could. However, the weapon takes a new cartridge for a new shot. I don't recall if they're battery powered or capacitor, but will assume battery.
They often won't pierce heavy clothing. It's a juggling match between penetration and lethality. Taser brand proper are compressed nitrogen powered.

Anything that uses a flammable propellant that could project a bullet would classify as a "firearm" (under US law an in most nations). Taser type weapons and certain rubber launchers and flare guns are low enough strength that doing so would destroy them.

ETA: If you google images for "taser darts" you'll find some ugly photos where they hit sensitive parts--cheeks, scalps, eyebrows, etc
 
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BRDurkin

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Two darts and wires for current flow.

Just to clarify in case it was lost in the other info, you need a complete circuit for any kind of current to flow. Think of the sides of a square: the gun is one side, the two wires and darts are two more sides, and the "victim" become the fourth side. If any one of those sides is absent, current can't flow.

It's the same reason that cords for pretty much any appliance have two prongs: they complete the circuit. (Some have a third for a ground, but that's not relevant to this topic.)

Anyway, that's what basic electronics in the Navy taught me, haha. It probably wasn't necessary for me to post this, but I could foresee the question as a possibility, so I thought I'd answer it just in case.
 

underthecity

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You don't reuse them, though I'm sure in theory you could. However, the weapon takes a new cartridge for a new shot. I don't recall if they're battery powered or capacitor, but will assume battery.
Thank you for the information. It would really help if I could use the Taser three times in about ten minutes. How can I make that possible? Would the character have to reload a new cartridge each time? And would she be unaware the battery was dying? (So it fails on the attempted third or fourth shot?)
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Thank you for the information. It would really help if I could use the Taser three times in about ten minutes. How can I make that possible? Would the character have to reload a new cartridge each time? And would she be unaware the battery was dying? (So it fails on the attempted third or fourth shot?)

Yes, you would have to load a new cartridge for each shot. Their battery is rated for 190 5 second shots, per the company website.
 

Drachen Jager

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I don't recall if they're battery powered or capacitor, but will assume battery.

Like all electro-convulsive weapons, Tasers are battery powered, but they need a capacitor to develop the appropriate voltage. A capacitor can hold a charge, but only for a relatively short period, so a battery is needed to charge it up. It is super-simple to make your own stun-gun with a large capacitor and a battery and not much else.
 
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