The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

Thanks for the additional info, Michael.

I prefer the peal grip .38 Special. I want that guy to gloat to his intended victim (the MC) about his gun, something like "See this pearl grip and engraving? Done by Wolf and Klar in Ft Worth. Beautiful, isn't it?" The MC knows nothing about firearms. So it'd be nice to have features she can relate to while still shuddering.

The engraving isn't great, and they did quite a few of them. There are some out there they pimped out with gold wire and the works. Tacky beyond belief, but historically interesting. But yes, that would be a creepy gloating.

This is a Smith and Wesson "Lemonsqueezer" double action only, break top revolver in .38 S&W. It was made around 1895, and thus is legally an "antique" under US law, not a "firearm." The recommended loads are black powder or equivalent with 120-158 gr bullets at about 150-200 ft lbs. Hotter loads will damage the latch and cause bad cylinder gap (this one is at .028 inches, rather than under .009) (between cylinder and barrel).

The 6" barrel is unusual, and ordinarily, this would be a $500 gun, possibly $400 due to the gap. However, look closely:



Under the front sight, there's a bulge in the barrel. This can happen if the barrel is plugged, or dirty, or even wet--the passage of the bullet compresses the water and it acts like a hydraulic press.

This is now a $90 gun.

It's probably safe to shoot, though it will be neither powerful nor accurate. With a gap like that, it may also "spit" lead out the sides.

I can probably shim the cylinder to tighten it. For the barrel, it will have to be milled shorter and the sight remounted, which will really confuse whoever next gets a 5.5" barrel that was never made by Smith.

Otherwise, either I have to look for another upper assembly, and there aren't any 6" but I might find 4" or 3", or the gun will only be good for spare parts.

Summonere said:

Found it.

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

Special Agent Urey W. Patrick
Firearms Training Unit
FBI Academy
Quantico, Virginia
July 14, 1989

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

The time I erroneously cited earlier (13 – 30 seconds), is actually 10 to 15 seconds, according to the report (last page, under conclusions).

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Wow - fabulous reference. Great stuff in that publication - tidbits I didn't even realize I needed to know.

Thank you!

I apologize if this has been asked already but what are the disadvantages and advantages of bullpup weapon design? I'm mostly interested in the latter here (I imagine more rifling room for the round and more compact size) as I've heard a lot of the former.

Smaller overall size for a rifle (barrel length is typically 16-20"; rifling will depend upon projectile size/weight/caliber); usually lighter; easier to conceal; faster handling in close quarters.

Would that mean they're a practical choice in spite of all the supposed disadvantages?

Many bullpups are right handed only. This is a disadvantage for 15% of the population, to the point of unusability for some. Then there's a percentage whose right eye is not up to the task of aiming. (Some can be converted to left hand operation.)

The chamber is very close to the face, which is bad if there's a chamber failure.

Most of them have poor triggers due to the need for cables or transfer bars from the trigger to the breech.

The rear mounted magazine can interfere and be hard to change if one is wearing web gear.

The sight radius is shorter, which reduces usable range due to human factors, which is why most have optical sights.

Few if any have adjustable length stocks for different shooters, or to account for different clothing or armor due to environmental/engagement factors.



The advantages are compact size and balance, which is of some advantage when kicking in doors or otherwise in tight quarters.

I don't consider them impractical, but they are not the answer to all design problems.

Keep in mind that for a while, the fad subgun setup was magazine in the grip (Uzi, MAC-10, etc). This has gone out of fashion.

Bullpups are not catching on fast, and unless some of the issues they have can be addressed, may suffer the same fate.

Calliopenjo said:

While we're on the subject of guns, if I could ask a question I'd appreciate any help. Either someone's know how or a link would be appreciated.

I have a story with mounted rifles above the fireplace. Without inspecting them, would someone be able to tell if they were usable or unusable at a glance? Would there be something stuffed inside to make them useless?

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The firing pins could be removed, mechanisms welded, breeches plugged, receivers or barrels drilled under the stocks. One assumes a functional looking weapon is functional, but there's no way to know for sure without handling.

The irony is that what the UK considers "disabled" is still legally a functional weapon in the US, and vice versa.

Short question and a bit on the silly side, but if say, you were able to create a functioning assault rifle that launched exploding bullets, would someone actually be knocked back by the force of the shell detonating after it embeds into their body or armour?

No. You couldn't pack enough explosive into a bullet to throw a body around. Enough to cause nasty internal damage, but not enough to push a 180-200 pound man significantly to knock them back.

Think back to Newton. The explosive charge that's in a rifle is about what you could pack into a bullet. When someone fires a rifle are they thrown back? Same thing with a bullet impact, the same force applies (minus loss for air friction). With an explosive you may double that force, but it's still not enough.

Thank you Michael.

Remember, if you're writing fiction you have considerably wider latitude - and can have some fun with it...


"Stella! Damn it, where are the anti-matter dum-dums? Nothin's ever around when you need it!"

"Lands sakes, George! They're in the Zombie Apocalypse Kit - right where you put them! I swear, you must be goin' senile - you can't remember anythin' worth knowin' these days!"

"Shut it, woman! Get the ammo pronto - somthin's in the perimeter wire!"

The damaged Smith Lemon Squeezer was also "out of time." The first round fired correctly. On the second round the cylinder was offset a fraction of an inch and the edge of the primer was struck. There was some lead splatter sideways. The third round did not line up enough to fire at all, which is good, because it might have shattered the gun.

It has been disassembled for parts.

If anyone ever tells you, "revolvers don't jam," laugh at them. When, not if, a revolver malfunctions, you will not be fixing it without a machine shop. They are more complex, more precise and harder to manufacture than modern autos. They are simpler for a beginner, or someone with weak wrists, but they are most certainly not any more reliable than a modern auto.

Otherwise, my daughter took a serious shine to the Second Model Smith & Wesson .45 Colt.



It dates from 1916 and was originally a British contract piece (has Enfield and Broad Arrow proofs) in .455 Webley.

However, it also needs some barrel and action tuning. Safe to fire, just worn after 96 years.

Another way to load a weapon. This is a US Army 1917 Smith and Wesson revolver chambered for .45 ACP. It is cut so the rimless cases will space on the case inside the cylinder, but it's easier and faster to use moon or half moon clips to drop in a full load at a time.

One thing to remember is that besides getting the technical details right the choice of what firearms to use in a story and how the character thinks about and uses the firearms can be another way to reveal something about the character.

Firearms choice can also help establish a certain mood or setting for a story.

For example, if you want to establish a "noir feel," even if it's a modern setting, consider having characters use traditional "noir" guns like a ".45 Government Model" or a "Dick Special snub nose."

The first pistol mentioned is another name for the 1911 style pistols that are still popular today. The military designation (1911 or 1911A1) is the most popular way to describe them today, but in past decades people tended to call them the "Colt Government Model" or "Army .45" or ".45 Government Model" instead of a "1911."

The .38 Special Colt "Detective Special," commonly called the "Dick Special" could also be used to bring in a noir feel and would also be appropriate as a police back-up gun well into the 1970's or 1980's.

If your character is supposed to be "into guns" then having him talk or think about the details of a specific gun would be appropriate. Conversely, if he isn't a "gun guy," yet carries a gun (cop/detective/etc) have him refer to it more generically and with less regard. For him, it's just a tool, and not something he's interested in for it's own sake.

This is all a bit of an oversimplification, but it gives you something to think about when considering firearms in your work.

Hey, Trebor. Fancy meeting you here.

MichaelZWilliamson said:

Hey, Trebor. Fancy meeting you here.

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Well, you did mention this thread the other day. I've been lurking here for quite awhile, albiet not as much recently, and I decided it was finally time to say something...

An updated revolver family pic.

From the top, clockwise:

Reproduction 1858 Remington .44 blackpowder
German pinfire revolver, 7mm, 1870s
Hopkins and Allen #2 Ranger, .32 rimfire, 1870s
Smith & Wesson Model 1-1/2, .32 rimfire, 1860s
Smith & Wesson Model 2 double action breaktop, .38 S&W, 1882
Colt New Army Model, .38 Colt, 1898. Aftermarket pearl grips.

1916 Smith Second Model Hand Ejector, originally .455 Eley for the Brits, re-chambered in .45 Colt, refinished and with Pachmayr grips

Colt Army Special, .38 Special, 1913
Colt Police Positive, .32 S&W Long, 1914
S&W Military and Police Model 1905, .32-20, 1906
Nagant Revolver, Tula Arsenal, USSR, 7.62 Nagant, 1922
Unbranded Spanish .38 Special, Smith copy, 1920s
Taurus Model 817 snub .38 Special, 2006

Guns change facing here, still going clockwise

Ruger Security Six, .357 Magnum, 1994
Enfield break top, .38-200 (How the Brits call .38S&W), 1953
Smith & Wesson Regulation Police, .32 Long, 1917
Colt Cobra, .32 long, 1957
Colt Police Positive, .38 Special, 1923
Smith & Wesson Model 1917 US Army, .45 ACP, 1917
S&W M&P 2nd Model, pearl grips by Wolf and Klar, 1929
S&W 2nd Model .38 S&W, refinished, 1880
S&W 2nd Model .38 S&W 6", 1880s, for spare parts
Hopkins and Allen XL #4, .38 Rimfire, 1871. Ivory grips.
Allen and Wheelock sidehammer .22 short, 1858
ORIGINAL Remington Model 1863 (1858 patent), Army .44 percussion revolver

middle:
Sedgley Baby Hammerless .22 short--matched pair
And unmarked Spanish knockoff of same.

Here's a question from someone who has never fired a gun in her life.

Here's the situation in my story. I need guns for three teenagers: a revolver for a fourteen-year-old, and two hunting rifles for a fifteen and sixteen-year-old. This stories set about a two hundred and fifty years in the future, so I will likely be making up my own models, but I was hoping someone could point me in the direction of models these kids could feasibly wield, I'll at least have a point of reference.

Also, I need some help with a scene in the story. The fourteen-year-old has to shoot a man, but she doesn't want to kill him. She has the revolver and is standing about two feet away. Should she shoot him in the foot, the leg, the shoulder, somewhere else? Which would bring the man down, but wouldn't necessarily kill him?

250 years is a ways off. Do you have a specific reason to essentially use current firearms tech instead of updating it?

As to what guns to use as a model, just go to wiki and read the pages for Mauser 98, Remington Model 700 and Winchester Model 70 for bolt-action rifles and Winchester 94 for an example of a lever action rifle. Just read through those and you'll find something you can use.

As to revolvers, go to wiki and read about S&W revolvers, Colt Python, and Ruger revolvers. That should cover the basics.

Another thought: Holding a gun on someone two feet away is a great way to get your gun taken away if that person knows anything about weapons disarms, or is just an aggressive fighter. I suggest the character stand a bit further away, definitely out of easy arms reach.

As to where to shoot, there is nowhere absolutely safe to shoot someone to "just hurt" them. A gunshot wound to the arm or leg could still hit an artery and cause rapid death by blood loss. But, your character might not know that. If she thinks she just "wants to hurt him" have her shoot him in the leg and just have her not hit the femoral artery. If she wants to be mean, she could kneecap him. Either way it will limit his mobility and it would be reasonable for him to fall down after getting shot in the leg. (Heck, it would also be reasonable for him to keep standing or fighting. Bullet wounds are weird and unpredictable).

Anyone know about shotgun shell reloading?

I know you can do it yourself relatively easily. What I'm wondering is how easy it would be once your supply of commercial pre-made components ran out / wore out, and what you would use instead. I'm assuming the reloading equipment itself would survive pretty much indefinitely provided it was looked after carefully. Commercial supplies haven't been available for about 70 years.

(Shot, not solid slugs, and breakbarrel guns rather than pump action.)