Stoked about a premise, but would you be?

Demiansky · Mar 11, 2010

Uh oh. As for other items of plausability, I'm not sure I should even sure I should side-rail the thread with this debate but...

A specific copy of DNA being contaminated isn't as big a problem as you claim it is. First, we've already found a very, very pure sample of Neanderthal DNA... a sample that has billions of copies. So what do you do? You sequence more than one copy from the sample. By comparing, you can see which suffer from improper deletions, insertions, or denaturing. Then you replace portions that are obviously damaged from correct copies.

As for arranging DNA into their proper chromosomes, we can do this as well: it was the first thing we talked about in my comparative genetics class back in college. Where chromosomes begin and end can be identified by fairly simple algorithms once you have the genome of a closely related species sequenced (that would be us.) Where the DNA "text" is ambiguous you can compare to the human genome where chromosomes begin and end on particular lines of DNA (after all, we are more closely related to Neanderthals than rats are to mice.)

Not trying to defy you for fun, I'm just letting you know that I've really, really did my research on this one. I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but a lot has changed in the science of genetics in the past 10 years. If I thought the concept of a cloned neanderthal were outlandish, I wouldn't even bother writing it. Thanks for the time you have spent responding, though.

Kitty Pryde · Mar 11, 2010

You've probably read this article, but here's a big list of all the things we CAN'T do that we would first have to discover how to do in order to clone a Neanderthal: http://www.archaeology.org/1003/etc/neanderthals.html

Manuel Royal · Mar 11, 2010

Demiansky said:
If I thought the concept of a cloned neanderthal were outlandish, I wouldn't even bother writing it. Thanks for the time you have spent responding, though.

It's not outlandish. It's also not possible with current knowledge and technology. That's why it's science fiction.

The problem of gene expression is separate from the purity of the DNA, but just as important. If somebody works out how to resequence H. Sapiens DNA in a stem cell to H. Neanderthalensis DNA, then maybe the genes would express the right way, and maybe you'd be able to get from there to an embryo, and maybe you could gestate it in a human uterus. Nobody knows. Exciting, speculative ideas. Science fiction.

I love science fiction, as lots of us here do. You've got a perfectly good, rather familiar science fiction premise that you can use to examine the human condition, hopefully in a moving and profound way. If I were writing it, I wouldn't spend much time on the actual cloning process. The details aren't important to pursuing your central idea.

AlekT · Mar 11, 2010

Demiansky said:
He has vivid intellect that is wildly different than our own.

What do you think?

As you stated regarding "Jurassic Park," a novel need not be pigeonholed as science fiction regardless of the premise. No one calls Kurt Vonnegut a science fiction writer. A novel can have science and/or science-fiction aspects without being labeled science fiction.

My question, however, is this: How, exactly, would this human/neanderthal have a vivid intellect that is wildly different than our own? How do you convey this in your novel? I mean, he wouldn't be like some neanderthal transported from the past into the present; he would seem to me a human with some neanderthal characteristics, no? (Sorry, but I keep picturing the guy in the Geiko commercials.) I'm intrigued by the premise and would give this novel a try.

Good Luck!

WildScribe · Mar 11, 2010

Cloning from fossils is not within our current technological abilities. It is sci fi and can be best marketed and sold as such. But I do think it could be a very good book if done well.

Demiansky said:
So I'm writing my first real novel. I've come up with a premise that I'm wildly enthusiastic about. My fingers are on fire. I've written 60,000 words so far in 2 months and I've revised, what I've got thus far, more times than I can count. I'm having a blast, regardless of where it goes. However...

I have no idea whether the concept is interesting to anyone but myself. So I need some opinions.

The novel is called Sapiens and I'm squaring it up to fit not-so-neatly into the "Mainstream/Literary" genre. I'm quite adamant that Sapiens not be a work of science fiction. Nothing in Sapiens is beyond our current technology. So here is a basic, basic synopsis: the protagonist, Adam, is a Neanderthal cloned from the DNA of a 40,000 year old fossil. He is carried by a human surrogate until his birth and is raised from infancy by a host of scientists. At its roots, it is an exploration of the human condition through the eyes and mind of a non-human, raised in a world where his species no longer exists. He has vivid intellect that is wildly different than our own.

What do you think?

Demiansky · Mar 12, 2010

Kitty Pryde said:
You've probably read this article, but here's a big list of all the things we CAN'T do that we would first have to discover how to do in order to clone a Neanderthal: http://www.archaeology.org/1003/etc/neanderthals.html

Yep, and the funny thing is I was actually going to cite it as evidence for my case, which seems to be telling me something. I think we already agree on the matter of technology. It's our standards of science fiction that seem to be in disjuntion.

When it comes to application and the future of a particular prospect, there are different levels of requisites that need to be fullfilled in order to make that prospect possible. Call them degrees of plausibility.

I would call them Knowledge, Technology, and Technique.

Knowledge is the first level that must be satisfied. Knowledge involves the actual information necessary to even build a workable hypothesis on how phenomenon works.

The next is Technology. When you've accumulated enough knowledge, you can construct technology, allowing you to use knowledge in a predictable and reliable way toward constructive purposes.

Technology breaks down into different Techniques, which are specific sub-divisions of Technology.

So an example of each level would be:
Knowledge: Genetics
Technology: Sequencing or Genetic Engineering
Technique: Electrophoresis or Polymerase Chain Reaction

If you walk over to the Sci Fi shelf, the vast, vast majority never get past the first level or knowledge. For instance, look at time travel. We don't even have the knowledge necessary to understand how it could even exist, nonetheless the technology or techniques.

A book like Jurassic park would have the Knowledge, a tiny bit of technology, and pretty much no technique. Sapiens, my novel, requires only a small amount of technique to be a reality.

I believe someone related Sapiens to Asimov's "Ugly Little Boy" (which was a beautiful little story.) The Ugly Little Boy involved time travel, which of course makes it very, very different than Sapiens. And so this is why I have reservations about just slapping on the label of Sci Fi to Sapiens. For example: a coralimorphian is an animal, but if 99 percent of your examples of animals are mammalian megafauna, then a coralimorphian doesn't really fit very well into that category. Giving them both identical genre labels I think is, to be blunt, deceptive.

I love science fiction, and I've been a science fiction nerd since I was four years old (almost all of my imaginary acivities involved space travel). But if Sapiens is Science Fiction, it is in a distant corner of the "Venn Diagram."

benbradley · Mar 12, 2010

Firstly to the premise, yes it's interesting, though I think, or I recall reading, a good writer could write an interesting story on just about any premise.

That brings up being able to write a good story. Others have pointed you to SYW and beta readers and such to help you find out where you are with that.

For this premise, yes, there's the "nature vs. nurture" thing, but there's also the "raised by scientists" thing, and even a normal human is going to be different if raised by scientists instead of in a "normal" family, so that has to be somehow taken into account or compensated for.

As far as whether something is science fiction, just because a story uses "current technology" doesn't mean it's not science fiction. But we've already got a whole thread arguing "what is science fiction" going on (though for all I know that thread may have been spawned from this one and I missed it).

Kalyke · Apr 15, 2010

I'd still classify that as science fiction.

shaldna · May 6, 2010

it sounds interesting.

it also sounds very much sci-fi.

Miss Plum · May 11, 2010

I have a completely different concern from the other contributors here.

What's the plot? I see an interesting idea, but no plot. What happens to this creature? Does he escape, fall in love, save the world, what?

maestrowork · Oct 20, 2010

It is science fiction.

But that doesn't mean it can't be literary/mainstream. It all depends on how you present it, and what is the core of your story. I mean, NEVER LET ME GO, is alternate universe/science fiction, but it's very much literary.

You have a neat premise and idea. Now, I want to see the plot or treatment.

Two very different things.

college boy · Oct 20, 2010

At this stage it seems high concept.

jaksen · Oct 20, 2010

Don Allen said:
I have a question. I read your premise and found it intriguing until I thought about a little, and realized that in effect the child born would not be much higher functioning than a mongoloid birth defect child born today, would it? You're not talking about an exceptional species, Neanderthal was primitive in both statue and intelligence. The questions raised would be why would scientists wish to reproduce such an inferior species, unless, and this is just supposition, unless the neanderthal possessed a gene trait that was needed by humans for survival. Otherwise you're recreating sort of a Neo-Rainman with out the virtue of natural selection. But I could be wrong...

Mongoloid, used in this way, is an extremely outdated term. It's true a Down Syndrome child might be defined as having a 'birth defect,' but even though I hate the term PC, in this case Mongoloid is politically incorrect; it's also horribly offensive.

Camilla Delvalle · Oct 23, 2010

Jean M. Auel speculates a lot about Neaderthals in The Clan of the Cave Bear. Maybe it would be interesting for you to read.

Debbie V · Oct 25, 2010

The OP asked if the topic was interesting to others. The discussion indicates it is. It has been done before - Just about every Star Trek series has an outsider commenting on the human condition and what it means to be human. So what? Do it differently, and better, than the rest.

Write the best book you can and worry about classifications later.

maestrowork · Oct 25, 2010

So yes, it's a great premise. What I'd call a "high concept" mainstream story.

Now, how do you turn a premise into a great plot? That is the question. Premise alone seldom sells a novel. The treatment is extremely important.

SafetyDance · Oct 26, 2010

I like the concept. Your Neanderthal is sounding rather autistic; interesting.

Have to concur that it's science fiction, though. It has not been done yet, ergo it is fiction; it makes no difference as to whether we can or can't. Would agree with the Crichton comparison (he is one of my favourite writers. Or was. Sniff!). I really wouldn't worry about the market here -- write what you want to write. By the sounds of it, this may well fall into the dystopian category too.

Don Evan Scott · Oct 31, 2010

I am in agreement with the others here - I think you are oversimplifying the cloning process. I doubt very much it could be done any times soon, even if the Neanderthal DNA was complete and arranged exactly as ours are.

That said however, I like the concept -- to me, I would be VERY excited to read how you envision the thoughts of an ancient man. You should put some up for critique.

DES

Stoked about a premise, but would you be?

Demiansky

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

Manuel Royal

AlekT

Alexander

WildScribe

Slave to the Wordcount

Demiansky

benbradley

It's a doggy dog world

Kalyke

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

Miss Plum

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

college boy

Less interesting than you think.

jaksen

Caped Codder

Camilla Delvalle

Dreaming of other times

Debbie V

Mentoring Myself and Others

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

SafetyDance

L'Oreal. He's worth it.

Don Evan Scott

I have a pet snake named Sparky :)