What is mainstream and contemporary?

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Maxinquaye

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I'm a bit sad that this board is so quiet, and since I know there's quite a lot of mainstream/contemporary writers on AW I kind of wonder why that is.

Maybe people don't know what to post here? Maybe there's a lack of definition about what mainstream/contemporary fiction is?

What do you think?
 

ChristineR

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Mainstream is actually not mainstream. Genre fiction outsells it. I think after you eliminate fiction that focuses on some plot element (thriller, romance, fantasy world) you're left with fiction about more or less real people doing more or less real things. The interest comes from the interaction of the characters, not the genre elements.

I don't know. There's a lot of people on here asking what the next "big thing" will be, and no one ever says it will be literary books. There are plenty of people who want to right something that will sell, and I guess the perception is that it will be harder to sell a literary book.
 

Maxinquaye

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I don't know. There's a lot of people on here asking what the next "big thing" will be, and no one ever says it will be literary books. There are plenty of people who want to right something that will sell, and I guess the perception is that it will be harder to sell a literary book.

Maybe this is why this board is so quiet - people conflate mainstream/contemporary with literary.

I write mainstream/contemporary and how I define it is that it doesn't have any fantastic element in it. It is more geared toward realism, in the real world, dealing with real people.

Whether it is literary or not is not for me to decide, really. And literary is a way of writing rather than a genre since you can have literary science fiction and literary romance.
 

ChristineR

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Eek, I just noticed I wrote "right" for write. Must have been half-asleep.

Mysteries and thrillers are not "mainstream," although they have no fantastic elements (unless they're paranormals). That's why I define it as having the main focus as being on the real-world characters.

The most common definition of literary out there is that the characters, not the genre elements, drive the plot. Max, what drives your plots, if not genre elements?
 

Chris P

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Thanks for this thread. I read mostly mainstream/literary, therefore that's what I write.

I agree, Max, this board is too quiet! *bangs pans and yodels*
 

Maxinquaye

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The most common definition of literary out there is that the characters, not the genre elements, drive the plot. Max, what drives your plots, if not genre elements?

I think characters drive the plot in other genres too. In SF, Romance, Historical, Horror. It's characters that drive those stories too. I think Mainstream/Contemporary is defined by being in this world, and in the here and now. Now, the stories can be funny, sad, tragic, or exciting. But if it is in the present, and deals with this world, and does so in a realistic fashion, then maybe we can agree to that definition for this board - even though the definition might be slightly at odds with the standard definition. Or?

Thanks for this thread. I read mostly mainstream/literary, therefore that's what I write.

I agree, Max, this board is too quiet! *bangs pans and yodels*

Well, we as users are responsible for keeping it alive too. If we users don't take that responsibility, it won't happen. And maybe if we do define the board, as I tried to describe above, it will motivate people to post stuff here? They will then know more what fits here, and what don't?

What do the mods say?
 

Slushie

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I define mainstream as any category fiction that has mass appeal. So by that definition, a fantasy novel could be mainstream; a romance novel could be mainstream; a western novel could be mainstream. It's a catch-all term that transcends genre, and has to do with industry economics.

Literary is also a catch-all term. But. Where we can measure mainstream merit objectively using the monies, we can only measure literary merit subjectively, using style preferences.

I define contemporary as a loose ubergenre set in the real world with human beings doing human things. Funny thing is, a horror novel could be contemporary; a romance novel could be contemporary. I think that might be the underlying reason why this forum is withering. There are more clearly defined genre forums, specific to common themes, and most of the discussions here could probably be ported to the Novels forum without a hiccup.

So all three labels for this forum aren't actually specific genres, but terms that can blur the lines between those genres.

That's how I see it, anyways, if any of this makes sense.
 
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Maxinquaye

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Perhaps then we could ask the powers that be to rename the board in order to diminish this ambiguity of purpose? I feel this could be a home for a writer like me that write more realism-stories.

And that encompasses short stories and novellas as well, not just novels. That would be justification enough for having a seperate board apart from novels, which is geared toward writing novels.

What would you think would be a good name then for the board?

ETA: I've asked the mods and Mac about this. Hopefully they can shed some light on what they want. :)
 
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Slushie

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Perhaps then we could ask the powers that be to rename the board in order to diminish this ambiguity of purpose? I feel this could be a home for a writer like me that write more realism-stories.

And that encompasses short stories and novellas as well, not just novels. That would be justification enough for having a seperate board apart from novels, which is geared toward writing novels.

What would you think would be a good name then for the board?

ETA: I've asked the mods and Mac about this. Hopefully they can shed some light on what they want. :)

I know what you mean. I've written stories about love, but don't have the HEA ending that would make it romance; I've written a story about a serial killer, but doesn't quite seem to be horror (these are novelettes/novellas, btw; I'm not that efficient a novel-writer. :) ). Another example I can think of--but not a story I've written--could be about a detective that follows a serial killer, but the story revolves around the detective's psychological/family-life repercussions from the case, rather than "catching the bad guy" that would make it a mystery/thriller.

A name for this forum? I've always considered these kinds of stories to be in the Non-genre Genre, a completely made up--and possibly ridiculous--term. Kinda sounds like Interstices, but that genre would include Surrealism and Magical Realism, whereas those concepts wouldn't be covered by this "Non-genre Genre", one grounded in observable reality.

Having said that, I think something along the lines of realism might work. Even though this has links to the literary movement from back in the day, it also deals with themes and plot-structures I think we're talking about here, specifically the realistic portrayal of modern life. That's not to say the other genres on this board don't to aim to portray real life, real human emotion, but those genres have certain benchmarks that not all stories may meet, thus a need for another classification; maybe--for the purposes of this board--"Modern Realism" could make that distinction clearer?
 

kuwisdelu

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Shrug.

The majority of my writing is more or less literary. Sometimes there are genre elements, but they don't drive the plot; my characters drive everything. Lots of what I write are love stories, but don't conform in any way to any of the conventions of the modern definition of romance. When I write something with science fiction or fantasy elements, they tend to be in the background to the main story.

I definitely wouldn't call what I write modern realism. That's a pretty specific term as far as literary genres go. Besides which, I often use elements of magical realism and surrealism in my fiction as well, but again, these tend to take a backseat and are more a part of the tone of the story than being directly plot-related.

If I had to be pinned down, my genre would probably be hysterical realism.

I think renaming the board would ultimately be more limiting than clarifying, since there's far more to contemporary/mainstream/literary fiction than realism or modernism; e.g., postmodernism is a big part of contemporary literary fiction. Besides which, "contemporary/mainstream/literary" are the generally accepted industry terms. Getting more specific is more of an exercise done in English classrooms than a publishing house. Not that I'd be opposed to that, just sayin'.

Perhaps a sticky that more clearly defines what the board is? It's easy to discuss genre elements, since they're common to the genre. There is little common to all contemporary fiction other than a more-or-less modern setting. Even when it's not, "twenty-minutes-into-the-future" type stuff is still more or less considered contemporary.

Discussion of literary techniques like the stream-of-consciousness thread are interesting, but without a more defined purpose for the board, there's little reason such discussions couldn't go in Novels.

I'd be interested to see discussions of modern literary movements like postmodernism and hysterical realism, since though "contemporary," these can more or less be considered genres in the English classroom sense, even if not talked about that way when submitting. But such things might turn this into more of a Literary board than Mainstream/Contemporary.

I think the biggest question to answer is: What do you talk about here that would be more appropriate here than on the Novels forum?

For an example, my idea of good discussion questions like that would be, maybe, along the lines of "How do you write about ontological angst?" or "What are the burning questions of our generation?" or "What styles of writing do you think most capture the twenty-first century?" or "What is the next big literary movement?" But I could be sounding like a pompous, pretentious douche, so if discussions like this wouldn't appeal to anyone else here, feel free to ignore me. :)
 
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mkcbunny

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I am querying literary fiction, and there isn't an applicable "genre" board for me, so I came here. It's the only place where I thought I could fit in. Novels is a great forum, but so all-encompassing. And, don't hate me for saying this, but sometimes it gets a little loud and reactive in there. It can really be a challenge to sort through the advice sometimes. (I hope no one takes offense; none meant.)

I don't consider myself mainstream, more like offbeat. However, I'm not averse to having one board for the character-driven sorts of works. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to convince some agent that my work is more widely appealing? LOL.

One thing I've noticed in reading agent blogs is that there are a lot of genre writers online. I don't know the stats here at AW, but I see a lot of romance, SF, mystery, and YA signatures everywhere. So, while I love my AW genre counterparts dearly, I was hoping to find a place where non-genre writers can hang. I do go to the Novels forum a lot, but it's also a little bit difficult to deal with certain issues if the majority of the respondents are not working in your area. More than once, I've decided not to post a question because I would have preferred a smaller, more specific pool of advisors.

Anyway, that's my humble opinion.
 
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mkcbunny

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Oh, and I should add that I will come here more often. I was a little thrown initially by the mainstream label.
 

Rose English

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I don't consider myself mainstream, more like offbeat. However, I'm not averse to having one board for the character-driven sorts of works.

This comes closest to what I'm after. I go back and forth about my 'best fit' at AW, not that I have to stick to one place, or that I don't feel welcome where ever I go. But it would nice to be able to hang my hat somewhere.

I agree that a lot of topics that get posted here could go in Novels, and a lot of what ends up in Novels could go here, but I'm not sure that they should. It's hard to pin down but I have different expectations of attitude from the two boards.

To me, Novels is where I go for unequivocal guidance. Which is not to equate M/C/L with novice, or make one forum superior or anything like that. I thought that a lot of Kuwisdelu's 'bigger' questions would be great here, but I can see most of them ending up in Office Party for some reason...

Why is that? (wonders to self, why do 'we' make light of such things?)
 
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Rose English

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Crap, I was thinking of Roundtable, not Office Party (which also makes my edit redundant). Sigh.
 

Slushie

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After some thinking, I've figured out what this forum needs. We have no Cabaret, no Cantina, not even a Saloon. Where do us Literary Types go for a drink? The Snobbish Speakeasy? The Purple Prose Pub?
 

Chris P

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Haha! "Snobbish Speakeasy!"

And Max - touche earlier about needing more users here. *ponders next thread starter*
 

soapdish

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I've been following this thread a little since it started the other day and I just wanted to say I'm glad to see others are struggling with this as well. I have a few shorts that don't fall in any genre (that I can tell). One of which I am working on revising this week and it’s frustrating because I can’t think of a market for it because it doesn’t fall into a genre. It’s almost enough to stop me from writing it. If I understood the market for mainstream/contemporary/literary a little more I might have a light at the end of the tunnel.

I am most thrown by the "literary" term. Mainstream/Contemporary sound more like what I write. But literary makes me think...elegant--or something (though that's not quite the term I'm searching for).

Anyway--this is all to say, I'd like to see this forum more active too. :)
 

Maxinquaye

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This comes closest to what I'm after. I go back and forth about my 'best fit' at AW, not that I have to stick to one place, or that I don't feel welcome where ever I go. But it would nice to be able to hang my hat somewhere.

I agree that a lot of topics that get posted here could go in Novels, and a lot of what ends up in Novels could go here, but I'm not sure that they should. It's hard to pin down but I have different expectations of attitude from the two boards.

To me, Novels is where I go for unequivocal guidance. Which is not to equate M/C/L with novice, or make one forum superior or anything like that. I thought that a lot of Kuwisdelu's 'bigger' questions would be great here, but I can see most of them ending up in Office Party for some reason...

Why is that? (wonders to self, why do 'we' make light of such things?)

I read novels because it's an interesting group for novelwriters. I wouldn't say it is always the best group for literary or contemporary writers. Case in point, the argument that goes on in the Opening-threads where genre writers are coming down hard on stuff that I think would be quite legitimate in mainstream/contemporary/literary novels.

I've been trying to decide whether I should post the opening to Dostoyevskis "The Idiot" there. It's one of the big classics out there, but I wouldn't say the opening is the one that best followed the "paradigm", or whatever you might call. And that was a backthought with me posting the opening to Trainspotting too. :D

So, Novels is a fine group, where you can talk broadly about novels. And then you (general you here) can come and talk about the finer points of this little segment of the fiction world here. That's what I'm hoping for, at least.

I am querying literary fiction, and there isn't an applicable "genre" board for me, so I came here. It's the only place where I thought I could fit in. Novels is a great forum, but so all-encompassing. And, don't hate me for saying this, but sometimes it gets a little loud and reactive in there. It can really be a challenge to sort through the advice sometimes. (I hope no one takes offense; none meant.)

I don't consider myself mainstream, more like offbeat. However, I'm not averse to having one board for the character-driven sorts of works. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to convince some agent that my work is more widely appealing? LOL.

One thing I've noticed in reading agent blogs is that there are a lot of genre writers online. I don't know the stats here at AW, but I see a lot of romance, SF, mystery, and YA signatures everywhere. So, while I love my AW genre counterparts dearly, I was hoping to find a place where non-genre writers can hang. I do go to the Novels forum a lot, but it's also a little bit difficult to deal with certain issues if the majority of the respondents are not working in your area. More than once, I've decided not to post a question because I would have preferred a smaller, more specific pool of advisors.

Anyway, that's my humble opinion.

I think we're all still a bit dancing around definitions here. Some of you call yourself literary; i don't call myself that. I hope I can be counted as one, one day, but for now I'm more into realism. Strong realistic (well) stories about real people in this real world.

That's what I would like to see. Literary is of course a part of that, and a necessary part. What would this group be without being able to talk about everthing from Hemingway to Steinbeck to William Golding? Those writers would fit in this group if they were writing today. :)

So, do you have any suggestions for how we can liven this group up? Make it come alive? Do we need new stickies? New resources? Do we need more people? Do we need a better definition of it?

Mac is listening (Thanks for that, Mac!)
 

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I usually post in Novels, but some of the 'rules' there don't necessarily apply to my WIP, at least. Most people who post there give a nod to that.

I thought Mainstream would be even farther from the themy navel-gazing I like ;) Who knew? I'm kinda mainstream. Cool ;)

I separate out the MR stuff when I ask questions about my WIP, usually. That gets crazy hard to explain. I'd have to show a passage, at the very least.
 

Slushie

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bsb, that magical realism thread in Interstices hurts my brain. It definitely is hard to explain. Of course, I'm also easily confused.
 

backslashbaby

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I think it's the sort of thing you just need to read. It's like people who eat raw oysters -- there's no good way to explain why, but you might love it :)

bsb, that magical realism thread in Interstices hurts my brain. It definitely is hard to explain. Of course, I'm also easily confused.
 

AlekT

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A glance through the New York Time Book Review hardcover bestseller list shows “The Help” by Kathryn Stockett checking in at #2 -- about “a white woman and two black maids in 1900s Mississippi.” This is Stockett’s first novel by the way. At #8 is “The Postmistress” by Sarah Blake –“ordinary life in a Massachusetts town.” Chris Bohjalian’s “Secrets of Eden” checks in at #11.

I would describe these as mainstream/contemporary/literary fiction -- or whatever label you choose -- None fit neatly into a specific genre. I would say that they tend to learn more toward character-driven versus plot-driven. As a former bookseller and member of a book discussion group for many years, I believe there will always be a market for well-written novels regardless of genre. The term 'genre,' in fact, strikes me as more a marketing tool than a writing style.

As far a writing goes, write the story you imagine and let it fall where it may. Who knows, it might just become the next groundbreaking work.
 

mkcbunny

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bsb, that magical realism thread in Interstices hurts my brain. It definitely is hard to explain. Of course, I'm also easily confused.

Even though my work has imaginative fantasy elements, the Interstices forum kind of hurts my brain, too. It feels more experimental than I think I am. My story is fantastic, and I do cross genres, but my style isn't spliced-crazy experimental. I should go take a look at the MR thread and see what's going on in there.

I think the main reason I feel more comfortable here is that although I do have wacky elements in spades, the point of my work is character development. Every crazy thing that happens serves the character—it's just all in her head. :)
 
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