My Voice is Stuck At 18, How Do I Make it Grow Up?

lemonhead · Apr 16, 2014

I'm old-ish (late twenties, married with three kids and a lot of life stuffed into those years). And sort-of successful in writing young adult. I write literary leaning young adult and have never had an issue with my voice--- I let it go as literary leaning as I want, my dialogue is what I hear in my head, my characters are what I see/remember from youth. (aka, I'm never the person asking if this sounds like a teenager, I'm always writing upper YA and I'm confident it sounds just fine). My books/stories tend to be atypical YA, mostly because my teen years were quite atypical and I couldn't write a book where conflict centers around school/friends if I tried. But I've had some success with this (I have a higher caliber agent than my firearm if that makes sense).

I also write literary fiction (in the crime vein). Unsuccessfully. I repeatedly hear "this sounds YA" and I have NO IDEA how to stop sounding that way. Or why. The content is older. The people are older. The problems are different (but just different sides of the same coin usually). My prose? But shouldn't literary YA at least make up decent commercial fiction?

What is the difference between YA and adult voice in literary terms? What would make a crime novel sound YA in a subtle way? How do you exert more control over your voice to get it to do what you want?

I'm already reading. I read widely-- but the ones I read over and over again are Woodrell, McCarthy and Dostoevsky. So, I really have no idea how this is ending up YA.

Quickbread · Apr 16, 2014

Have you tried posting a few paragraphs in SYW? It's kind of hard to tell without reading it.

ap123 · Apr 16, 2014

I don't write or read YA, so take my words with a heaping spoon of salt.

Two thoughts popped into my head, the first being your reference to "different sides of the same coin." I would think the problems and conflicts are different coins.

My other thought is what the characters are noticing. Not just dialogue, but is what they're seeing/thinking about in narration the things that would catch an adult's eye or a teen's eye?

gothicangel · Apr 16, 2014

lemonhead said:
I'm already reading. I read widely-- but the ones I read over and over again are Woodrell, McCarthy and Dostoevsky. So, I really have no idea how this is ending up YA.

Have these people specifically said it's the voice, or are they referring to the story when they say it 'sounds like YA'?

Dostoevsky isn't a good example for modern writers to learn from. As for reading widely, I don't think this just means reading literary, but everything in between. There are plenty of authors of genre fiction with mature, 'literary' voices.

lemonhead · Apr 16, 2014

Quickbread said:
Have you tried posting a few paragraphs in SYW? It's kind of hard to tell without reading it.

I have. I didn't get YA comments there, but my agent has made that comment about a now trunked book, and a trusted alpha reader is making that comment about a project I'd started. I think it's something that might be deeper than SYW... but I don't know how. I seem to give a prevailing sense of YA in the long haul, not in any specific way. But there MUST be something?

Maybe I'll go back with that specific question....

lemonhead · Apr 16, 2014

gothicangel said:
Have these people specifically said it's the voice, or are they referring to the story when they say it 'sounds like YA'?

Dostoevsky isn't a good example for modern writers to learn from. As for reading widely, I don't think this just means reading literary, but everything in between. There are plenty of authors of genre fiction with mature, 'literary' voices.

Voice.

And I read pretty much anything and everything, and make it a habit to do so. I'm just trying to show I'm not on a steady diet of commercial YA and wondering why I write young. YA isn't where I started, and it's not my favorite to read (though I have a soft spot for it), but somehow I'm landing there.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 16, 2014

I've never heard this question before. It's interesting. I can write voices of different ages, but I suspect we all have a natural age where we write best. Mine is probably twelve. I write a good deal of MG, and it comes naturally. I can stick my writing self inside a twelve year old without effort.

I can't help but wonder, though, if it's the stories you tell that are eighteen, not the voice you're using.

lemonhead · Apr 16, 2014

Jamesaritchie said:
I've never heard this question before. It's interesting. I can write voices of different ages, but I suspect we all have a natural age where we write best. Mine is probably twelve. I write a good deal of MG, and it comes naturally. I can stick my writing self inside a twelve year old without effort.

I can't help but wonder, though, if it's the stories you tell that are eighteen, not the voice you're using.

Thanks to this thread, I'm now wondering it myself. I definitely gravitate towards the same kind of story, and often it fits well at 18. But life is pretty cyclic, and even at 27, I'm still going through different manifestations of the same problems I had at 18.... (right? I'm also now worried about this)

Maybe the combination is what gives it that feeling? Maybe there is a breakdown in my prose that drops into younger sounding? Blah, I need a book doctor!

BethS · Apr 16, 2014

I have met some writers who just naturally have a voice that fits a particular genre or age range. One friend of mine is in her 60s and writes regular fantasy--and she's had more than one person (including me) tell her that her voice would be well suited to YA.

Your voice is your voice. You may not be able to change it. That said, it may shift with age. You said you're in your late 20s, which despite you thinking is old-ish, is still quite young in the human life span. See how your writing voice looks when you're in your late 30s or 40s.

Which is no help to you now, I guess...

johnhallow · Apr 16, 2014

For me, changing up voice is the same as (literally) imagining someone else speaking and writing that way (though it isn't necessarily as easy as it sounds -- I agree with Beth, most people gravitate toward a natural voice).

I pick different words, vary my sentence structure, etc. The attitude my MC gives off is also a huge deal. Noir novels tend to have POV characters who come off as quite cynical, for example.

So I suppose you could try to include thoughts/feelings that prevent your POV character from coming off as superficial, along with "smarter" words/phrasing. Don't forget that the actual content of your story is a big deal too -- IMHO it's part of the reason why JK Rowling's writing style can seem "mature" in one book and come off as MG in another (because the things that occur often seem childish or absurb. Your story's sense of humour plays a part in this impression too). And don't forget that dialogue also flavours how people see the story as a whole.

AshleyEpidemic · Apr 16, 2014

I've felt very similar. My natural voice comes across as late teens. I think it has to do with my mindset. Despite being 23, I behave more similarly if not more childish than I did at 17. It's where my life is, so its how my stories and voice manifests.

lemonhead · Apr 16, 2014

That's why this is challenging me. I'm not writing anything superficial. My prose is excellent and I don't have to worry about using "smarter" words (!!) because I'm using the right words and putting them together the right way for the POV. It's just I'm not doing that for the adult stuff I'm writing. The parts are right but the sum is totaling something different.

And if I was young or still in a young, free stage of life, I could see how this was reflection of where I am. But Idk. I'm just not and haven't been for a long time. I still feel that way sometimes, but I barely have time for feelings.

Beth, I'm afraid most of that answer. So, I guess I should just get used to YA while I'm here, huh? lol.

BekkahSmith · Apr 16, 2014

My voice falls naturally between 18-25. I usually stick within that age range when I write, no matter the genre. The youngest YA I write is 16 but prefer 17-18. This is a fascinating discussion.

Phaeal · Apr 16, 2014

In my current WIP, one POV is 18, one pushing 400. If I can't make them distinctive, I'm in big trouble.

I see differences not only in word choice, but in sentence structure and rhythm between the two characters, both in narrative and dialogue. It's complicated because while the 400 year old may use more archaic terms in thought, he doesn't in speech, because he's passing as a contemporary 40 year old.

I find the process arduous but fascinating.

As for how your prose could be sounding YAish when you don't intend it to, I think you should quiz those with this impression as closely as they'll bear for specifics. Voice is in those fine details.

Hapax Legomenon · Apr 16, 2014

I have no idea where my "voice" falls, I don't think I've ever been able to place my writing in an age range -- the only comments I've gotten is that it sounds "European," whatever that means. It's interesting to think about, though.

I guess I'll just lurk around here and see what happens.

Avatar_fan · Apr 16, 2014

Do you write in first person? I think "voice" is more important in first person than third since you're in the character's head all the time.

I write in (limited) third, and I can zoom in or zoom out whenever the scene calls for it. But when I do zoom in, I just try to get it into the character's head and their interests, worries, etc.

lemonhead · Apr 16, 2014

Avatar_fan said:
Do you write in first person? I think "voice" is more important in first person than third since you're in the character's head all the time.

I write in (limited) third, and I can zoom in or zoom out whenever the scene calls for it. But when I do zoom in, I just try to get it into the character's head and their interests, worries, etc.

Third limited. One thing I noticed this morning while trying to tease the cause out, was that when I was zoomed out, I sound older. When I'm deeper into someone's head, I sound younger. No matter the age of the protagonist.

Avatar_fan · Apr 16, 2014

Hmmm, ok, I think the reason you sound older when you're zoomed out is because you're using the voice of a narrator so the sentences are more formal and stuff like that. Am I right?

So the issue has something to do with the way you write when you're in the character's head. Whenever I'm stuck on something, I just go back and reread my favorite authors (memorable chapters/scenes) and see how they do it. Maybe start there?

job · Apr 16, 2014

lemonhead said:
... sort-of successful in writing young adult.

You go on to explain why your voice works for YA. But the important things is -- for whatever reason -- this is something you can do.

Probably 95% of the folks reading this would like to be profitably published in any genre.
They're likely saying, "Way to GO, YA Writer!"

lemonhead said:
I also write literary fiction ... Unsuccessfully.

Though it's important to remember that LitFic is not necessarily a commercial genre like YA, SF&F, Romance, Mystery, etc. Success in LitFic may be more just in getting published than in making big royalties.

If you wanted to improve your specifically LitFic voice:

-- You'd want to read widely in very recent great modern LitFic. Here. I imagine you've done this.

-- Unlike genre writing, LitFic is a deeply academic affair. An MFA program would definitely clue you in on LitFic expectations, rules and boundaries. There are workshops and residential programs, some of them very well respected.
Though both these options above are pretty pricey.

-- Maybe your local college has a creative writing professor with a strong LitFic orientation.

-- AW has the 'Mainstream.Contemporary/Literary' section. There may be fellow LitFic writers there.

Finally, I'll hand out the advice I'd give anyone who asked about voice:

Do not listen to anyone's advice on your voice.

Voice is slippery and personal. Voice is close to the instinctive, unconscious core where stories are born. That unique voice is what a writer sells when he tosses his manuscript into the marketplace.

By the time you've got to the level of published and experienced writer, there's about nobody who can understand your voice better than you do.
That leaves you kinda on your own.

lemonhead · Apr 16, 2014

job said:
You go on to explain why this should be so . . . but the important things is -- for whatever reason -- this is something you can do.

Probably 95% of the folks reading this would like to be profitably published in any genre.
They're likely saying, "Way to GO, YA Writer!"

Though it's important to remember that LitFic is not necessarily a commercial genre like YA, SF&F, Romance, Mystery, etc. Success may be more just in getting published than in making big royalties.

I imagine you've already read widely in great modern LitFic and looked at those voices.

Another step ...?
Unlike genre writing, LitFic is a deeply academic affair. An MFA program would definitely clue you in on LitFic expectations, rules and boundaries. And there are workshops and residential programs, some of them very well respected.
But I'm sure you've thought of this. And these options are pricey.

Maybe a local college has a creative writing professor with a strong LitFic orientation.

Finally, here at AW we have the 'Mainstream.Contemporary/Literary' section. There may be fellow LitFic writers there.

Since you are asking for advice, I'll hand out the advice I'd give anyone who asked about voice:

Do not listen to anyone's advice on your voice.

Voice is slippery and personal. Voice is close to the instinctive, unconscious core where stories are born. That unique voice is what a writer sells when he tosses his manuscript into the marketplace.

By the time you've got to the level of published and experienced writer, there's about nobody who can understand your voice better than you do.
That leaves you kinda on your own.

If I could give you a thousand reps for this I would. I mean. Seriously. Yes. I've thought about MFA's (eta: it is out of the question at this exact point in time...I'm a young mom and paycheck to paycheck, but someday in my dreams I'd still like to do one). I'm trying my hardest to replicate some of this academic work. I'm mining my more knowledgeable peers for what I can use.

And I'm going to take your advice and fold that up and slip it into my pocket to carry around. I think I sort-of know this and am feeling a little alone and afraid of the path. One of my friends keeps telling me to trust the process and I'm like UGGHH THE PROCESS. It's a process.

*takes a deep breath and keeps on trudging*

Anna Spargo-Ryan · Apr 16, 2014

This is a fascinating topic. I went and had a look at your literary/crime post in SYW to see if I could get a sense of what you're saying.

Without rehashing that thread in this thread, there were a couple contributing factors for me, and I hope this is useful:

- You describe a lot of the MC's actions in a way I see more often in YA (and contemporary women's fiction too, I think): "She did X. She went to Y. She put the thing down. She stepped inside." Compare your sentence "But the tremble spread from her hands to her thoughts, shaking loose the bolts out all the joints." to "She inspected the scabbed over scrapes of her knuckles." How can you inject the voice of the first sentence into the latter? "Years of hard labour ached in her scabbed knuckles."

- We don't get much of a sense of the MC's life. She seems young because the kinds of things she's thinking also seem young. If she's thinking about Donny's years in prison and now his homecoming, I feel like the adult version of her would be reflecting on how she will look him in the eye and how his body will feel against hers and how much she might resent him or how much she missed the rough skin of his hands or ... and not on the homecoming present or speech.

Your writing is good, as you say. I hope my comments might give you something to play with, to see if it ages it up.

spikeman4444 · Apr 16, 2014

lemonhead said:
Thanks to this thread, I'm now wondering it myself. I definitely gravitate towards the same kind of story, and often it fits well at 18. But life is pretty cyclic, and even at 27, I'm still going through different manifestations of the same problems I had at 18.... (right? I'm also now worried about this)

Maybe the combination is what gives it that feeling? Maybe there is a breakdown in my prose that drops into younger sounding? Blah, I need a book doctor!

I'll be turning 27 next month. I now write exclusively YA after several rather poor efforts at adult novels. I think it is mostly a comfort thing, where I am very comfortable inside of a teenager's mind. I taught high school as recently as four years ago, so that plays into it. I also read about 90% YA at the moment, so I'm completely submerged into the YA world. I don't really have any desire to stray from it, but if you really feel an urge to make your voice grow up, then I would think the best thing to do is write with a voice with a character that is based on you. This is tricky, because if you are like me, you still feel young at 27, and by young I mean the same you felt as a teen. You have so many high school memories fresh in your mind, that the adult, spouse, parent version of you can easily turn itself off during writing. I guess I would say, don't force it. But, explore. Maybe you won't be successful with an older voice until you're in your late thirties or forties.

angeliz2k · Apr 16, 2014

I think Phael hit on an important point. It isn't any one thing, it's a combination of many things that probably make your voice come across as "young". It's diction, it's the phrases you choose, it's the cadence, it's the syntax. It is difficult to impossible to pin down what exactly makes the voice come off as young because, well, it's a mixture of things. But you can find specific places to focus on. You should probably pick apart a chapter sentence by sentence and analyze your choices: syntax, diction, the level of detail, the character's focus, character reactions, etc.

I think you may want to focus on syntax--in my experience, YA tends to use fragments in different ways than adult fiction. Also, if you use fewer complex sentences, it might read as "younger".

Once you pinpoint some things that make this voice seem younger, you might be able to consciously write "older" until it becomes second nature.

Some of it could be situational, of course, but it sounds to me like it's the words themselves and not the situation that are at issue. After all, lots of adult novels have teen POV characters.

This is a tough one, because voice is so non-specific. But if you want to write older and it isn't quite working, you have to figure out exactly what choices you're making that you could change.

Of course . . . maybe that age range is a sweet spot for you. There's no law that says you can't keep writing in that sweet spot.

I'm the same age as you (27), but I don't think I could go much younger than 16, and honestly I'm not sure I could go even as young as 18 for a contemporary teen (I write historical--different ball of wax). My sweet spot seems to be early twenties to mid-thirties.

Layla Nahar · Apr 16, 2014

Have you tried lining up passages of your text next to some published YA to see how they compare? Maybe look at several YAs with analytical eyes to see what they have in common...

LupineMoon · Apr 16, 2014

I've got the opposite problem. As much as I would like to write YA-ish, I come out much more adult than I would like.

My Voice is Stuck At 18, How Do I Make it Grow Up?

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