A plotter overwhelmed by outline methods

Lillith1991 · Apr 18, 2014

Ok, my fellow AWers, here's my problem.

When I came to the forum around a month ago, I dived head first into researching different outlining methods. I was convinced that other plotters were outlining in a way radically different than what I was. So I researched things like the snowflake method, and others. Only this lead to me feeling inadequate in my original method, and using all these different ways just to get a half way decent outline.

I realized that I have been wasting time I could of been using to write in my enuthusiasm. Not only my original writing, but my fanfiction is suffering as well. And as I have a passion for both, I feel awful that either suffered. The outlines stunk to high heaven.

But not even half an hour before writing this, I caught myself watching yet another video on plotting. Something clicked I'm my head. I was going about this wrong. So I pulled out an outline for an original work from before I started this crazy outline method research journey. There were things I would change, but I was much happier with it than the ones from after my insane journey started.

Now, this isn't to say the period of frantic outline research didn't pay off in some way. There are little, very tiny changes I'm willing to add into my skill set now. Changes like a synopsis that follows the plot before I do my outline. And I did learn some ideas do require brainstorming.

It was heart wrenching journey to figure out these things though. And damned if I don't want to take a month off from writing anything, even my own name after it. But I'm going to incorperate the things that actually fit my original style of writing outlines, and just take this as a well needed lesson into not trying to do everything.

Synopsis? ok. Augmenting the original method so each chapter is snowflaked? Not ok in the least. A quick discription of what is happening in each chapter is per my original way is quite alright. I can expand to a paragraph if need be, but anymore than that is over kill for my brain.

I may not pants things entirely, but I need to be able to pants some of it. If I write in the outline that in chapter one orc female meets a human female, that's perfectly fine( this example is from a story I'm writing to put on fictionpress.com). I'm ok with discovering how that meeting goes, and pantsing it. I need to do that.

So in conclusion. Thanks AW for leading me towards all these nifty methods for outliners. I've learned a lot. But for my continued love of the craft, it's best I take what I learned and throw almost all of it out. A handful of things will stick around, but that's all.

Bufty · Apr 18, 2014

Your basic issue seems to be you have let yourself get sidetracked with researching and worrying about other people's methods of writing when you should simply be writing the best way that suits you.

The best way to find out what suits you is to jump in and start writing and stop worrying about other folk's methods - as you now seem to be doing.

A good story well written is what matters and what sells, regardless of the method used in getting there.

Good luck.

JustKia · Apr 18, 2014

There's the thing - everyone differs.
I bet most people on here hold their pen a specific way that wouldn't work for another; arrange their writing space a unique way; prefer different writing pens, pencils, paper, word processor, writing software; like different movies, books, food, drinks, clothes...

And then we all plot or not different ways. Even those of us that look into myriad ways of plotting and planning end up tweaking our chosen method (or combination of) to suit us.

Then some pantsers like to write a sentence per chapter to keep on track while others just like to have a brief synopsis as a guide and others still have a vague idea and just sit to write and see what happens.

Personally, I need to plot out each scene in detail before I write it and yet I can't for the life of me snowflake.

Lillith1991 · Apr 18, 2014

JustKia said:
There's the thing - everyone differs.
I bet most people on here hold their pen a specific way that wouldn't work for another; arrange their writing space a unique way; prefer different writing pens, pencils, paper, word processor, writing software; like different movies, books, food, drinks, clothes...

And then we all plot or not different ways. Even those of us that look into myriad ways of plotting and planning end up tweaking our chosen method (or combination of) to suit us.

Then some pantsers like to write a sentence per chapter to keep on track while others just like to have a brief synopsis as a guide and others still have a vague idea and just sit to write and see what happens.

Personally, I need to plot out each scene in detail before I write it and yet I can't for the life of me snowflake.

I'm a definite plotter. I'm not afraid of character bios or other little things when needed. That short sentence or paragraph describing what happens in that chapter helps me plan a mental number of scenes. That Orc story for fictionpress has three scenes in the first chapter. One from the point of view of my Orc, the other two from the human's. Going in I didn't know that though.

But you're completely right. Level of plotting is personal to the writer. I can see myself expanding things into scenes for some stories or for revision/rewriting. For me it would help check over all effect. Is a scene carrying its weight etc. And that may not work for someone else, even another plotter.

ohheyyrach77 · Apr 18, 2014

I don't outline.

The only novel I actually finished I didn't even write in order. I wrote the scenes as I thought of them and connected them later. It's the best piece I have ever done.

job · Apr 18, 2014

Is any of this helping you write?
It doesn't particularly sound like it.

My advice would be to start your next working session with four or five hours of writing.
By writing, I mean, laying down an actual bit of story.
Putting dialog, action, description, etc. into words.
Writing one scene.

Because the process of writing trumps everything else.
Outlining, plotting, thinking about story, learning how to outline, building characters, planning, synopsizing, discussing writing methodology, and doing research
are not writing.

Writing is writing.

Every day, write first. Write till you're tired. Do this other good stuff second.

mailtime · Apr 18, 2014

Okay, I'm a plotter, too, but my outlines aren't super-detailed. There's a point A to point B for all chapters. Things are supposed to happen eventually, but when I start writing, sometimes what I had in mind will change. But as long as a similar point B is reached, it's okay. Don't let all your details and plot points drown you.

As for character bios, I stopped doing them after my first novel. I'll know their basic personalities and let them build as I write. They'll gain likes and dislikes and quirks as the story moves.

Avatar_fan · Apr 18, 2014

I think it really depends on what works for you. I tried both the plotter and pantser routes and I've come to the realization that I'm a complete plotter. Pantsing for me made me so nervous that I would put off actually writing since I would just keep staring at a blank screen. With plotting (like I do extensive plotting of the novel as a whole and then to the individual chapters/scenes beforehand), I'm comfortable with how this scene would play out and how it fits with the whole work.

Lillith1991 · Apr 18, 2014

ohheyyrach77 said:
I don't outline.

The only novel I actually finished I didn't even write in order. I wrote the scenes as I thought of them and connected them later. It's the best piece I have ever done.

I applaud you sir! I couldn't pants an entire novel if I tried. Once something gets past a certain number of chapters( two to be exact) I need my map.

phantasy · Apr 18, 2014

You know last night I did something I never thought I'd do. I made a chart outline of my novel.

I've been fighting charts forever because they seemed superfluous but it really helped me see where my lose ends where. My story just has so much backstory told in little hints and side plots that it is helping. Lots of mysteries for the reader to solve. Not to mention this novel is 35 chapters long and I keep forgetting what I wrote where.

So, charts. They help and are clearer than an outline.

juniper · Apr 18, 2014

phantasy said:
You know last night I did something I never thought I'd do. I made a chart outline of my novel ... So, charts. They help and are clearer than an outline.

What do you mean by a "chart outline?" Can you show an example?

phantasy · Apr 18, 2014

juniper said:
What do you mean by a "chart outline?" Can you show an example?

Hmm, you know I couldn't find an example but I'm sure I've read it on blogs. I think its called a 'beat sheet' as well.

Basically, you make a chart of not only the synopsis of every chapter, but also add rows for things you deem important to the story, like the stakes, character development, hints and so on. It can help you keep track of what the reader knows and what the characters do and so on. It's helping me spot any explanations I've missed b/c I'm writing a high fantasy with a lot of world-building and backstory that I need to cover in subtle ways.

It's keeping me organized though I don't think it'll be needed for every book.

RhodaD'Ettore · Apr 19, 2014

Lillith1991 said:
Ok, my fellow AWers, here's my
But for my continued love of the craft, it's best I take what I learned and throw almost all of it out. A handful of things will stick around, but that's all.

The whole idea of people creating writing to write confuses me. I have never used outlines at all. Another thread talked about people painting themselves into a corner... this happens because of the outlines.

For instance my book coming out in a couple weeks... I didnt research & outline.. plan. I sat down at the computer and said, "I'm going to write a story about a woman in 1820 coming from Ireland to America. So I started writing about her getting on the ship, the condiitions, the people. Then i made her sea sick... then thought.. morning sickness could look like sea sickness... I had a murder in this book.. and i literally was writing it as if two different characters could do it... just because i had not decided. IMO if i hadnt decided who killed the guy.. then it wont be predictable to the reader... it was REALLY not predictable when I revealed a third character as the killer! lol

bearilou · Apr 19, 2014

Lillith1991 said:
Level of plotting is personal to the writer. I can see myself expanding things into scenes for some stories or for revision/rewriting. For me it would help check over all effect. Is a scene carrying its weight etc. And that may not work for someone else, even another plotter.

And that's key. It is personal and for many of us, changes from story to story. While I know it's frustrating that you weren't getting anything written while you brushed up on outlining techniques, you now have several tools in your toolbox to pull out at another time. Not sure I'd count that as wasted time, tbh. :Shrug:

RhodaD'Ettore said:
The whole idea of people creating writing to write confuses me. I have never used outlines at all. Another thread talked about people painting themselves into a corner... this happens because of the outlines.

And anytime I've tried writing without an outline, I have painted myself in a corner and had to outline to get out of it. That's because I like to have a roadmap of where I'm going but I don't have a stranglehold on my outline. It's not THIS OUTLINE OR DIE mentality. Something happens, changes. Unexpected diversion but it's working great so...off to adjust outline!

So can we please not turn this into another outline vs no outline thread. Please?

Lillith1991 · Apr 19, 2014

RhodaD'Ettore said:
The whole idea of people creating writing to write confuses me. I have never used outlines at all. Another thread talked about people painting themselves into a corner... this happens because of the outlines.

I agree with bearilou. Let's not turn this into another plotter vs pantsers thread. Please? That certainly wasn't my intention. So let's not do it. Some thrive through outlining, some through pantsing . I'm just one of those who thrives when outlining, especially if using the method that works for me. And you thrive by pantsing.

bearilou · Apr 19, 2014

I have to add, Lillith, that no outlining method survives contact with me.

I see a method I like and I immediately adapt it to suit me best. Like the Snowflake, I skip a few steps and save them until later, one I use only as I'm writing and not before. Some I shorten so that I'm not spending huge amounts of time like he suggests in his 'instructions'.

So take what you have, use it, adapt it, make it something you can use. If you're in this writing gig for the long haul, anytime you take the time to adapt the tools you have to serve you best I really don't see as wasted time.

Good luck!

Lillith1991 · Apr 19, 2014

bearilou said:
And that's key. It is personal and for many of us, changes from story to story. While I know it's frustrating that you weren't getting anything written while you brushed up on outlining techniques, you now have several tools in your toolbox to pull out at another time. Not sure I'd count that as wasted time, tbh.

You're right bearilou! It isn't wasted time! As proof I present, the synopsis and outline for a novella I plan to write, and hopefully have published. And, the new and improved version of the outline for the story I'm going to be putting on fictionpress.

I learned that among other things, that the synopsis can be my friend. It can help me organize the events I want to put in my outline or that are there already. Potentially catching sticky points in the plot. And I can take out or manuver these sticky points in the way that best suits me using the solution I found while writing my synopsis.

So, even though it was a rough ride finding these handful of useful for me new tools. I am a happy Lillith.

alldis · Apr 19, 2014

Heya!

Just wanted to say I hear ya. For a time I was consumed in figuring out different outlining methods and it really sucked the joy out of writing the actual story. I found my favourite way to outline is pretty much how I've always done it and how you do it as well. Outline the chapters with one or two sentences then pants the chapters.

Like you, I did find little helpful tidbits along the way but think every writer inherently plans (or doesn't plan) stories in a way that works best for them right from the start. Trust your gut and write.

A.

JustKia · Apr 19, 2014

bearilou said:
I like to have a roadmap of where I'm going but I don't have a stranglehold on my outline. It's not THIS OUTLINE OR DIE mentality. Something happens, changes. Unexpected diversion but it's working great so...off to adjust outline!

I think that's why I can't snowflake. I need my road map and I know a few places I want to visit on my journey so I make sure I've got maps for that locale but mostly I don't really know the route I'm going to take between point X and Y until I'm ready to leave X. Then I'll get my map ready once I know if I'm leaving X by the east route or if I'm heading north - I know I have to get to Y after I've been to X but I don't know the route I'll take for that when I'm still at point F.
Of course once I decide on my route it's still quite possible that I'll find roadworks in the way and have to take a detour, but with my map I can figure out a detour that will still work for me.

Of course there's lots of people who will happily put the roof down, yell "ROAD TRIP" and decide nothing until they get to an intersection, just keep driving and see where they end up. Even at an intersection they may well just flip a coin - heads we go left, tails we go right, drop the coin we'll go straight on.

Lillith1991 · Apr 19, 2014

alldis said:
Heya!

Just wanted to say I hear ya. For a time I was consumed in figuring out different outlining methods and it really sucked the joy out of writing the actual story. I found my favourite way to outline is pretty much how I've always done it and how you do it as well. Outline the chapters with one or two sentences then pants the chapters.

Like you, I did find little helpful tidbits along the way but think every writer inherently plans (or doesn't plan) stories in a way that works best for them right from the start. Trust your gut and write.

A.

Thanks, A.

It was a rough ride finding those little tidbits, but well worth the literal tears cause by the method research and testing. I swear I was bawling my eyes out while trying to follow some of the diferent methods ( traditional snowflake I'm looking at you). But I did find nice little things like synopsises, and sometimes expanding my one or two sentances descriptions of a chapter to a short paragraph if I really need to ( Step two of the traditional snowflake, only it's applied to one chapter. I can't do more than that without my poor brain exploding). And I am able to take those tidbits, and use them without tears.

oooooh · Apr 19, 2014

I've never followed the Snowflake method past the first step or so. It's too harsh and fast-paced for me (sort of like running a military obstacle course... "Quick! Give me your whole plot! Now list three main characters and an antagonist! Hurry! Hurry!"), and would definitely give me some sort of migraine trying to follow it out.

Nor do I pants it entirely, as that leads me to the realm of Never Finishing Anything. For me, a basic outline is essential. But it's definitely that: very basic, just a bullet list detailing happens in each scene/chapter. Just plot points. But I don't even get to that until I've got all the characters down.

Since story is basically Characters vs. Plot, for me, at least, I work on the characters first. Get to know them all inside and out, how they feel about other characters, where my MC has to go (his/her "journey") and what needs to happen in order for this to occur, etc. I begin to formulate plot points: since X saves Y's life at some point, I need to have a scene where Y's life is in danger. Things like that.

It helps if you have a general 'feel' for what kind of story you want to write. To do this I actually open up a word doc (before I do any plotting/writing/research), and just ramble about what I wanna write, why I want to write it, and how I'm going to go about doing it. It doesn't matter if it's horribly off topic and I go on a rant about Dyson appliances or whatever, it helps me get thoughts out of my head and onto a page. I do this for a couple of days sometimes, until I hit that Eureka! moment. Then I get down to getting to know my characters, and compiling my outline, and I'm ready to write.

That's my whole method.

Lillith1991 · Apr 20, 2014

oooooh said:
I've never followed the Snowflake method past the first step or so. It's too harsh and fast-paced for me (sort of like running a military obstacle course... "Quick! Give me your whole plot! Now list three main characters and an antagonist! Hurry! Hurry!"), and would definitely give me some sort of migraine trying to follow it out.

Nor do I pants it entirely, as that leads me to the realm of Never Finishing Anything. For me, a basic outline is essential. But it's definitely that: very basic, just a bullet list detailing happens in each scene/chapter. Just plot points. But I don't even get to that until I've got all the characters down.
(Cut for space)

Your method sounds somewhat like the method I'm using for one of my bigger projects. I'm brainstorming for a epic fantasy trilogy while working on other things right now. My brainstorm is basicly questions about the story. Any question that has to do with it, and comes to my mind.

After I'm done with that part it will be time for a big synopsis of what's happening over all. One that can be neatly divided into the events of each book. Then will come my actual outline, which I won't go into. This project may be one where I need to do a paragraph explaining the events of each chapter in my outline. I won't know till I get to that part.

But I do know I will be doing my outlines for the trilogy before I start working on it. I have a couple projects in my fanfiction work that are driving me nuts, and they just happen to be ones I don't have full outlines ( by the way I personally outline) done for. I lost the outlines for them and having been reverse engineering them. So for the meantime, writing those stories despite my enjoyment is a bit stressful for me.

StormChild · Apr 20, 2014

I'm part plotter and part pantser, and the Snowflake method is too rigid for me (although it does have some useful elements).

I usually start knowing what's going on at the beginning and where I'll end up, but with a very vague notion of what's in between. By the end of the third chapter I've got the bones of an outline down, and each chapter after that adds more meat.

It means I need to go back and tweak those first few chapters pretty extensively later, but it's worth it for an organically-grown outline.

Cathy C · Apr 20, 2014

I'm also a plotter, but you'd never know it by looking at my workspace. All of the plotting (which is extensive) is in my head. Nothing on paper, which makes other plotters nuts! It also drives pantsers nuts, because I'll go weeks or months without putting a single word on paper and will then blurt out a book in final edited form over the course of a few days.

Everyone is different. If your journey through other people's methods found you something that was comfortable, it was a month well spent. Writing isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. Even Olympic athletes will tell you that sometimes it's not until you're surrounded by others just like you and you try their methods, that you'll fine the one that works best for you. That's often how athletes will get better from Olympics to Olympics.

nomadictendencies · Apr 23, 2014

I'm one of those people with a foot in both camps. I 'pants' it initially and find my way into the story. I learn about the characters, the setting and what the novel is about as I write, and it usually takes me about the first quarter of the novel to do so. The next half is loosely plotted while the last quarter follows a very structured outline.

I find this method works for me. But as everyone has said, writing is a unique process and everyone is different. I don't think there is a right way or a wrong way, just as long as you are writing!

A plotter overwhelmed by outline methods

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

Where have the last ten years gone?

My inner voice has terrible grammar

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

Awesome.

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

Typed so fast, keyboard's on fire.

New kid, be gentle!

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

I write weird stories.

Always curious.

I write weird stories.

DenturePunk writer

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

DenturePunk writer

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

Temet Nosce

My inner voice has terrible grammar

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

the owls are not what they seem

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

Ooo! Shiny new cover!