Bruce Jenner: The Interview

J.S.F.

Red fish, blue fish...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
5,365
Reaction score
793
Location
Osaka
re: what maxmordon said, yes, that was what I have heard from some in the transgender community as well. I used the term "transwoman" with no disrespect intended.
 

maxmordon

Penúltimo
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Messages
11,536
Reaction score
2,479
Location
Venezuela
Website
twitter.com
re: what maxmordon said, yes, that was what I have heard from some in the transgender community as well. I used the term "transwoman" with no disrespect intended.

I doubt it could be read as anything other than an honest mistake, but still it's something important to point out. Language can be hurtful in ways we tend to be unaware about.
 

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
5,058
Reaction score
460
Location
United States
With regards to "trans woman" vs. "transwoman," the tendency right now is to use "trans woman" because a lot of people want to emphasize that the "trans" part is an adjective, and some people feel like "transwoman" and "transman" imply that the trans person isn't really a woman or a man but something else.

But some people have no problem with "transwoman."

It's a new world I guess. I found the standards of care helpful and in general well thought out. I do understand that many people deviate from them for their own reasons. It's not, however, just about him anymore, not since he made himself a powerful media presence in America today. Will we get immediate news updates when he decides he want to use new pronouns, and still more when the new name comes? Will we get to watch Bruce transition in his new reality show? If so, then I know what to call Bruce Jenner: whore.

I think, like you said earlier, Bruce probably hasn't had a ton of control over how his identity has been presented in the media. It's possible that he's purposely taking advantage of his transition to bolster his reality TV star career, but it's also possible that he hasn't had a lot of choice. His family is very much in the public eye right now, and while it was his choice to go along with that, he may not have anticipated a few years ago that he would be thrust in the spotlight like this.

I can't speak for Jenner, and his identity is different than mine, but as someone who has questioned my gender identity a lot over the past decade and who doesn't identify as cisgender, I feel like it's very valuable to be able to go at your own pace. A lot of times well-meaning people will be very quick to assume that you're ready to start going by new pronouns or that you're certain transition is in your future, and that can be a lot of pressure if you're not ready for that. That's why, as much as I support young people coming out, I'll always be quick to caution people about coming out as LGBT when they're still figuring stuff out. Sometimes people expect you to know exactly who you are, and if you're still working through things, you don't need the extra pressure.

Maybe it would have been better for Jenner to spend some more time working through things privately and with his family. But when tabloids are publishing insulting, salacious covers about him, he's under a lot of pressure to make a statement and take some control over how he's represented.
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
Aside from the transgender issue, of which I am totally sympathetic and supportive, there's the separate issue called BRUCE JENNER. He has always been, and continues to be, an attention-vampire. He loves living on the front pages of the tabloids, and his time for doing that is diminishing. He's long past being the pretty midwestern boy with the page-boy coiffure who could run and jump and throw, in combination, better than anybody else. Waving around his Olympic Gold Metal doesn't do it for him any more. So he's hooked up with the most odious, untalentedceleb family on the planet, and that, and that alone, keeps him on the tabloid covers. His transgender transformation wouldn't merit a sneeze from any "journalist" without the Kardashianism behind it. Without that, he wouldn't even have merited a TV interview.

I really hope he's happier with his transition, and maybe, just maybe, he can become a spokesperson for others. But I have my doubts, given his long, lingering, edge of the sidelines need to be on those tabloid covers.

caw
 

CassandraW

Banned
Flounced
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
24,012
Reaction score
6,476
Location
.
Article in the Washington Post -- Trans people need an icon. But Bruce Jenner is the worst possible choice.

Just as the transgender experience is beginning to be normalized in American culture, it will be swept up with the ultimate symbol of abnormality and dysfunction: the Kardashian family. If what the transgender movement seeks is acceptance; association with the Kardashian circus is the last thing it needs. While television can help normalize the lives of marginalized people, it also can exploit their hardships and reinforce stereotypes, reducing their lives to mere entertainment.

Jenner has already shown that her public transition is more about promoting herself than promoting the transgender community. Signs of Jenner’s physical transformation have trickled out in paparazzi photos and scenes from “Keeping Up With The Kardashians”: her lengthening hair, manicured nails, and most recently, her appearance in a dress. Though she had a major platform in her reality television show and celebrity, Jenner stayed quiet, leaving her transition in the hands of the media. By letting the tabloids make up their own story and sensationalize the transgender experience, Jenner has allowed it to become a cartoon. Now, she’s finally speaking up – just in time for May sweeps TV ratings season.

The daily experiences of transgender people are not reflected in the spectacle Jenner has drummed up. In recent months, as Jenner was filming a new reality show, there have been a series of distressing stories coming out of the community: transgender children committing suicide, transgender women being killed, and transgender inmates suffering human rights injustices in prison. In Georgia, Ashley Diamond, a 36-year-old transgender woman who has been forced to serve her sentence in a men’s prison, has been denied a request to transfer after being raped multiple times by other inmates. Across the country, so-called “bathroom bills” are being proposed to criminalize transgender people’s use of public bathrooms. And in 78 countries, it’s still illegal to even be transgender.
 

jari_k

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
168
Reaction score
9
I think he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. If he doesn't speak, he's allowing the tabloids to "turn him into a cartoon." if he does speak, he's an attention whore.

I've edited away a large chunk of text that got too personal, re. the car crash scenario, since I did lose a sibling due to a drunk driver. I apologize for ever doing that here. I don't have any idea what agenda, if any, Bruce Jenner had/has for speaking. Attention seeker or not, I still feel this is a human being who has a right to speak if they wish.

P.S. I will add that the interview did show transgender teens who had committed suicide. It did talk about the violence they experience, and other harsh realities of prejudice against them. I still feel overall, as expressed by the person with a child who works at a hotline, the program probably did more to help than hurt. I hope so, anyway.
 
Last edited:

ULTRAGOTHA

Merovingian Superhero
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 17, 2011
Messages
2,467
Reaction score
313
It's a new world I guess. I found the standards of care helpful and in general well thought out. I do understand that many people deviate from them for their own reasons. It's not, however, just about him anymore, not since he made himself a powerful media presence in America today. Will we get immediate news updates when he decides he want to use new pronouns, and still more when the new name comes? Will we get to watch Bruce transition in his new reality show? If so, then I know what to call Bruce Jenner: whore.

This seems pretty harsh. Especially the use of a gendered insult.

I feel like a big part of the recent GLBT movement has been about not judging people and accepting them for who they are or who they are becoming. Being hostile to this guy because he's not transitioning in the way you expect him to?

I read that he said his prefers "he," for now. I see no reason not to respect at. I imagine he will inform the masses when the time is right.

My understanding for not just genderqueer people, but every single person on the planet, is to use the name and pronouns the person prefers. If Jenner wants to be called Bruce and he/him, we do that. If I want to be called ULTRAGOTHA (all caps) and she/her, we do that.

I also see less than zero need to make someone be a poster person for transition, who must act in one particular way, if s/he/zie/they do not want to be. Each person handles this in the way that makes the most sense for their situation.
 

Captcha

Banned
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
4,456
Reaction score
637

I'm with jari k. Without even reading that comment I was thinking damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

I mean, has the man APPLIED to be a trans icon? Hopefully no-one's claiming that he's pretending to be trans for attention, so what choice did he have about his transition? He could have, as the Post accused, left his "transition in the hands of the media". Or he could give an interview about it, but, oh, no, giving an interview at a time when it's going to get a lot of attention? That's drumming up a spectacle!

Whatever. I have no interests in Kardashians or Jenners. But Bruce Jenner as a human being, going through something huge and being unable to escape the public eye? I feel for him.

Blaming him for the media's interest in him and the media's failure to report on other transgender issues? Especially when the criticism comes FROM the media? Give me a break. Instead of shining the spotlight on him AGAIN, maybe the Post could have spent those column inches covering one of the many stories they feel are being ignored.
 

Perks

delicate #!&@*#! flower
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
18,981
Reaction score
6,933
Location
At some altitude
Website
www.jamie-mason.com
In those clips, I think he did a surprisingly good job of telegraphing how fluid and nuanced gender identity can be. I think this is valuable, Jenner's narcissism and dubious celebrity status notwithstanding. His wealth and fame necessarily separates his experience from what might be more typical, but I think it still does some good.

It's difficult for someone without that discomfort-to-tragedy in this aspect of their life to understand what it's like. I mean, it certainly is for me. I don't have this pain in my experience. Understanding other people's pain is important and valuable for me as a moral person. So, I was actually impressed with how genuine he came across in those clips.

That said, his recent car accident, beyond being a terrible tragedy all on its own, makes the Kardashian/Jenner circus even more repulsive than it has been for lo these many years.

It's very interesting the he/she pronoun conflict in this case. I think Celia made a great point that Bruce Jenner, by being a famous athlete and TV husband and father, might have a different path to change in his tags. I mean, he's been more HE by virtue of having it written and said of him by more people than most. Your average citizen is HE or SHE only to those who know them personally. I can imagine that it might make a difference when you have to change not only a personal paradigm, but a public persona as well.
 
Last edited:

CassandraW

Banned
Flounced
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
24,012
Reaction score
6,476
Location
.
I think blacbird rather nicely summed up my opinion on this one:

Aside from the transgender issue, of which I am totally sympathetic and supportive, there's the separate issue called BRUCE JENNER. He has always been, and continues to be, an attention-vampire. He loves living on the front pages of the tabloids, and his time for doing that is diminishing. He's long past being the pretty midwestern boy with the page-boy coiffure who could run and jump and throw, in combination, better than anybody else. Waving around his Olympic Gold Metal doesn't do it for him any more. So he's hooked up with the most odious, untalentedceleb family on the planet, and that, and that alone, keeps him on the tabloid covers. His transgender transformation wouldn't merit a sneeze from any "journalist" without the Kardashianism behind it. Without that, he wouldn't even have merited a TV interview.

I really hope he's happier with his transition, and maybe, just maybe, he can become a spokesperson for others. But I have my doubts, given his long, lingering, edge of the sidelines need to be on those tabloid covers.

caw
 

Usher

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
932
Reaction score
107
Location
Scotland

What a horrible, bigoted and hate filled article. It may reflect people's views but I think it's disgusting to aim that at Bruce Jenner plus she chose to use the she pronoun without instruction to do otherwise.

How Bruce Jenner chooses to transition is for him to decide nobody else. It's something he has to do in a way that is right for him and his family.

My husband suspects the next time we see him her transition will be complete. Not only has he been through all the usual emotions a trans person encounters he's done it in the full glare of media spotlight. The way he was hounded during the process was appalling and I couldn't help but feel for him.

And if he does make money out of it then so be it. That's the job he has.

I'm not a Kardashian fan and maybe that's why I've never understood the hatred aimed at them. But I think he's handled this with a certain amount of dignity and I think Kim Kardashian in particular has had some really interesting and profound things to say about being the daughter of someone whose father is transitioning. Things I've been able to read to my children.
 
Last edited:

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
I think it would have made more sense if he had mentioned it earlier, but I can only assume that he wasn't prepared for the big statement/interview. I mean, that's huge! So it left people to gossip, but but that's just the way it goes sometimes, I think.

If he really calculated any of that to bring ratings, that's very crass. But it still doesn't take away from the overall issue, imho. So he's not the most morally upstanding trans person then. That would still just make them regular people, eh ;) ?
 

Usher

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
932
Reaction score
107
Location
Scotland

They're great when they work for someone and guide them through the process.

They're not so great when they expect every trans person to tick the same boxes and are applied rigidly to every person. A good therapist doesn't do that but you get some people within the healthcare professions who pronounce and insist. They leave a number of people trapped.

The one thing we can be sure about is that Bruce Jenner can afford the very best of care and it isn't lack of available healthcare and therapy that is the reason for his decisions.

He's in a position where he can choose how he goes about things - not every trans person has that luxury.
 
Last edited:

Diana Hignutt

Very Tired
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
13,315
Reaction score
7,098
Location
Albany, NY
But Standards of Care are for the protection of the patient, right? So if you think Bruce Jenner's transition is contrary to the standards of care, shouldn't you be angry at his physicians, rather than at him? Or be concerned about him, rather than angry at him?

Yes, and no. The Standards of Care are designed as the best general treatment for their benefit to the patient and to protect the doctors from liability to some extent.

As to your second question, there seems to be three treatments based on economic standing (just like laws):

-for poor - whatever you can afford, so there's probably a future in prostitution involved, or no treatment, maybe some black market hormones.

-for the rich - whatever you can afford, whenever you want.

-for everybody else - strict regimen of goals and procedures and therapies at enormous cost before access to further medicines, and procedures...in a process taking two years or more.

Anyway, I'm supposed to be bowing out. I don't want to queer the thread, so to speak.
 

Captcha

Banned
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
4,456
Reaction score
637
If we want to start talking about income inequalities related to access to medical care, I'm right there with you!

I just don't think I'm going to blame it on Bruce Jenner.
 

Empire

Registered
Joined
Sep 21, 2014
Messages
7
Reaction score
1
I did a quick Google and it seems the SOC has changed in 2011 to have added "recognition of diverse non-binary gender identities and expressions."

http://www.bilerico.com/2011/09/new_standards_of_care_for_the_health_of_trans_peop.php

Which probably means that it's perfectly fine for Bruce Jenner to use male pronouns as long as he wants, even after he transitions, because he's comfortable with his gender fluidity and that should be good enough reason to respect it. And if it isn't, then now there's an official piece of paper that says we should.

You know, because things change.
 

Usher

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
932
Reaction score
107
Location
Scotland
And it's when rich people like Bruce Jenner start raising questions, because they can, about the treatment by doing it differently that care stands a chance of changing for everyone else. If he doesn't come forward and speak frankly like he has done then there is no dialogue and no discussion.

Being rich doesn't make transitioning easy it just makes it more comfortable and gives you more options.
 
Last edited:

CassandraW

Banned
Flounced
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
24,012
Reaction score
6,476
Location
.
Anyway, I'm supposed to be bowing out. I don't want to queer the thread, so to speak.


IMO, Diana, you should not bow out of this thread unless you truly don't want to be part of it. I for one am interested in your perspective.
 

Sheryl Nantus

Holding out for a Superhero...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
7,196
Reaction score
1,634
Age
59
Location
Brownsville, Pennsylvania. Or New Babbage, Second
Website
www.sherylnantus.com
If we want to start talking about income inequalities related to access to medical care, I'm right there with you!

I just don't think I'm going to blame it on Bruce Jenner.

Having money doesn't guarantee the best care. There are plenty of doctors waiting to take advantage of the rich.

Michael Jackson.

:Shrug:
 

Captcha

Banned
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
4,456
Reaction score
637
Having money doesn't guarantee the best care. There are plenty of doctors waiting to take advantage of the rich.

Michael Jackson.

:Shrug:

No, fair enough. Money can buy lots of stupid.

But a rich person with common sense can get care that a poor person with common sense can't get. A rich or poor person WITHOUT common sense? I guess the rules are there to protect them from themselves.

So, I guess we have a couple options:

The S of C are important and should always be followed to the letter. In that case Jenner is potentially harming himself by violating them, and we should be questioning the doctors who are going along with him, because they should know better, just like Michael Jackson's doctors should have known better.

or

The S of C are important but it's also important to customize the transition to the needs of the individual patient. In which case we have no reason to believe Jenner is not getting good care, but we should possibly look at the lack of flexibility shown to other transitioning patients who don't have his financial resources.

Are there other options? Based on these two, I'm really not seeing anything to hold against Bruce Jenner.
 

jari_k

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
168
Reaction score
9
No, fair enough. Money can buy lots of stupid.

But a rich person with common sense can get care that a poor person with common sense can't get. A rich or poor person WITHOUT common sense? I guess the rules are there to protect them from themselves.

So, I guess we have a couple options:

The S of C are important and should always be followed to the letter. In that case Jenner is potentially harming himself by violating them, and we should be questioning the doctors who are going along with him, because they should know better, just like Michael Jackson's doctors should have known better.

or

The S of C are important but it's also important to customize the transition to the needs of the individual patient. In which case we have no reason to believe Jenner is not getting good care, but we should possibly look at the lack of flexibility shown to other transitioning patients who don't have his financial resources.

Are there other options? Based on these two, I'm really not seeing anything to hold against Bruce Jenner.

I agree with the idea of customizing treatment for all kinds of issues. We are all individuals, after all. At the link given, it even states they are non-binding, so I don't know they were ever meant to be unalterable or used in every case.

I think people know themselves better over time. A typical 65-year-old is probably more self-aware than a typical 20-something, for example. If Jenner was going through counseling for transitioning back in the 80's, and presumably again now, that individual probably would have a good idea of the process involved. I hope they would.

Just my two ignorant cents. I'm sure lots of people here know a lot more about it than I do.
 

Diana Hignutt

Very Tired
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
13,315
Reaction score
7,098
Location
Albany, NY
IMO, Diana, you should not bow out of this thread unless you truly don't want to be part of it. I for one am interested in your perspective.

Frankly, the thread is more interesting to me when people feel free to say what they think, not when they feel like they have to refute whatever I say.

And for the record, my criticisms of Jenner were conditional. But if this turns out to be about promoting his new reality tv show...then I will be mad. Most trans people suffer. Many die. All for struggle with our identities and social reactions. If Jenner attempts to profit from that struggle...I'll have a problem with it.