Strong Female Characters

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kaitie

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My boyfriend and I were discussing this after he watched a Ted Talk yesterday (link after I can get him to send it to me). We were discussing the fact that in media (books, video games, movies), there tends to be a lack of strong female characters, and it got me thinking--what constitutes a strong character for you? What examples can you give?

Apparently, the idea is that typically the woman is either there to be rescued by the hero, or is someone who acts as a reward for the hero in the end. However, I think it's too easy to say a strong female character holds her own and isn't just there as a reward.

One of the people in the talk said they had three questions to see if you had a strong character:

Do you have more than one female character?
Do they talk to each other?
About men?

I chuckled, but he has a point. On the other hand, I could see a romance where a woman is strong, independent, and makes her own decisions but the story is still about love and romance. Wouldn't that person be a strong character?

The thing that strikes me as a problem is that it seems like "strong" has become equated often with "bitchy." I know that's not true of everyone, and one could argue that society puts that label on women who don't fit the expected role, but I have seen several women in books who are described as strong, but come across more than anything as uncaring and selfish.

For me, I think a strong woman is well-developed with layers and someone who knows herself and is able, to some degree at least, to control her life and her situation.

I worry about creating female characters who fall into old stereotypes and ruts, so I'd love to get some ideas on this.
 

ChristinaLayton

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For me a strong female character is one that recognizes and learns from her mistakes and one that licks her wounds and won't let anybody tear her down anymore.
 

Cyia

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Those three questions are from the "test" about women in films. A shocking number of films don't "pass" - including Alien, which has one of the strongest female leads of the 80's, if not ever. Terminator and its sequels fail, too, even though Sarah Connor turned into a very self-sufficient person.

Strength is too often determined by physicality, which since the largest number of writers for screen are coming from a boys' club mindset means they write a tough guy and give him boobs. But this bias holds true with men of quiet strength, too - they're "wimps."

It stems, in part, from the drummed in "rule" of screenwriting that if you can't see it on screen, it doesn't exist in the script. You can script a sword fight or a brawl; it's harder to visualize the idea of strength in someone who never raises his hand.
 

Maze Runner

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Is there a difference between what makes a female character strong and what makes a male character strong, in life or in any story that's not determined by physical superiority?
 

Kittens Starburst

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One of the people in the talk said they had three questions to see if you had a strong character:

Do you have more than one female character?
Do they talk to each other?
About men?

I chuckled, but he has a point. On the other hand, I could see a romance where a woman is strong, independent, and makes her own decisions but the story is still about love and romance. Wouldn't that person be a strong character?

I'm with you. Of course a woman in that situation can be strong, so long as men aren't the only thing she talks about. Or hair, makeup, nails, clothes, weight, babies, more babies, grown-up child babies, etc.

I'm not a romance fan by any stretch. My approach to men and women, both in life and fiction, is to treat them as more than the sum of their bits. That's how I like to be treated. We're all humans, with our own personal concerns, interests, values, etc. These certainly don't have to be gender specific. Gender is 90 per cent nurture, 10 per cent nature. I made that up, but it's probably true.
 

kaitie

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Is there a difference between what makes a female character strong and what makes a male character strong, in life or in any story that's not determined by physical superiority?

I love this question. I have a character in one of my stories who isn't typically strong at all. In fact, in a lot of ways he comes across as the weakest character in the whole book. At the same time, I think he's incredibly strong because he makes the hard choices and is willing to put himself at risk to do the right thing, even when he knows he's up against tough odds. He certainly isn't stereotypically strong, though.

Now that I'm thinking about it, in real life I view strength as not just an ability to overcome difficulties, but as the ability to sometimes make the harder choice for the right reasons.
 

Wilde_at_heart

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The thing that strikes me as a problem is that it seems like "strong" has become equated often with "bitchy." I know that's not true of everyone, and one could argue that society puts that label on women who don't fit the expected role, but I have seen several women in books who are described as strong, but come across more than anything as uncaring and selfish.

Ugh, I loathe the whole 'strong=bitchy' and feel exactly the same way. In fact, too often 'bitchiness' seems like trying too hard to mask insecurities. Not at all strong.

With my own writing I like to equate 'strong woman' with extreme cleverness.

In my current WIP the 'strong female' isn't the main character but she is gets out of several scrapes all on her own. More than once the male MC is impressed by her 'nerve'. She's also a brilliant scientist but temporarily trapped doing lousy administrative work in her job. Even then she uses it to her advantage.

And while my MC is great at hacking into security systems, it was his female boss who taught him everything he knows, and the 'damsel in distress' turns out to be assisting the villain.
 
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Maze Runner

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I love this question. I have a character in one of my stories who isn't typically strong at all. In fact, in a lot of ways he comes across as the weakest character in the whole book. At the same time, I think he's incredibly strong because he makes the hard choices and is willing to put himself at risk to do the right thing, even when he knows he's up against tough odds. He certainly isn't stereotypically strong, though.

Now that I'm thinking about it, in real life I view strength as not just an ability to overcome difficulties, but as the ability to sometimes make the harder choice for the right reasons.

And I love your answer. But I've been blessed with strong, loving, persevering, whole, women in my life- mother, g'mother, wife, daughter, so I never think of women as naturally weaker, etc. I know in an action story, a female protagonist would either have to be extraordinarily adept physically or with a firearm, but life is not like that. These are not the real challenges of our lives. And so, in my mind, this is what should be reflected in our stories. But that's how I like all of my stories, so close to life that you can hardly tell the difference.
 

kaitie

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I love the idea of strength through cleverness.
 

Kitty Pryde

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My boyfriend and I were discussing this after he watched a Ted Talk yesterday (link after I can get him to send it to me). We were discussing the fact that in media (books, video games, movies), there tends to be a lack of strong female characters, and it got me thinking--what constitutes a strong character for you? What examples can you give?

Apparently, the idea is that typically the woman is either there to be rescued by the hero, or is someone who acts as a reward for the hero in the end. However, I think it's too easy to say a strong female character holds her own and isn't just there as a reward.

One of the people in the talk said they had three questions to see if you had a strong character:

Do you have more than one female character?
Do they talk to each other?
About men?

I chuckled, but he has a point. On the other hand, I could see a romance where a woman is strong, independent, and makes her own decisions but the story is still about love and romance. Wouldn't that person be a strong character?

The thing that strikes me as a problem is that it seems like "strong" has become equated often with "bitchy." I know that's not true of everyone, and one could argue that society puts that label on women who don't fit the expected role, but I have seen several women in books who are described as strong, but come across more than anything as uncaring and selfish.

For me, I think a strong woman is well-developed with layers and someone who knows herself and is able, to some degree at least, to control her life and her situation.

I worry about creating female characters who fall into old stereotypes and ruts, so I'd love to get some ideas on this.

The speaker didn't invent that test. It's called the Bechdel Test, and it originates in an Alison Bechdel Dykes To Watch Out For comic strip. If you google it, it should pop right up. You laugh, but look at some of your favorite movies, or some recent popular ones. The test is actually, is there more than one female character, do they talk to each other, about something OTHER than a man? If you can't answer yes to all three, the comic strip character says she won't watch the movie. Even a lot of films or books with 'strong female characters' don't pass this test.

In my personal opinion, the best strong female character is not the currently popular Buffy* knockoff type, just a chick in tight leather who can drop a guy with her mad ninja skills. To me female strength is much more interesting when it's more realistic: strength to make the hard decisions, strength to do the right thing, strength to survive the unsurvivable, strength to hold people together, etc. I know plenty of women are highly trained killing machines who can kick your nose through the back of your head, but that's pretty boring all by itself. It's just the male story with boobies added in.

*I'm not a huge fan, but original Buffy was a well-rounded character who had both mad ninja skills AND great strength of character and strong female energy. Characters that followed her tend to be only superficially similar.
 

onesecondglance

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I grew up loving films like Alien and The Terminator, and when discussing my various story ideas with my wife once she remarked upon how many of my main characters were female. It didn't seem unusual to me - they just were female in my imagination. That my current WIP wouldn't pass the Bechdel test is kinda meh to me - part of the point is that the MC is surrounded by chauvinists who underrate her. But she doesn't bitch at them - she just does her job better than then.

Kittens Starburst said:
My approach to men and women, both in life and fiction, is to treat them as more than the sum of their bits. That's how I like to be treated. We're all humans, with our own personal concerns, interests, values, etc.

This is absolutely what I'm aiming for.

ETA: I realised my WIP does pass the test, by dint of a one line conversation.
 
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ap123

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I agree with much of what Kitty Pryde wrote in terms of defining female strength.

I would add female character strength = what makes a male character strong and memorable. A clearly defined set of values with a willingness to take action to stand by those values, unwillingness to harm others for superficial reasons, respect for self and others, flexibility and willingness to grow and learn.

IMO, the problem with many female characters is the same as in life, large numbers of women are discounted for reasons having to do with looks and life choices, even larger numbers of women are discounted because they're too young, too old, too sexy, too reminiscent of dear old mom.

Full disclosure, an avg man could kick my butt, but I'm strong enough to get up.
 

quickWit

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I don't really think there's a distinction to be drawn between strong male/female characters, aside from the fact one has a penis. Good ones, anyway.

Characters, that is. Not penises.ses'.

You know what I'm sayin'.
 

kaitie

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The speaker didn't invent that test. It's called the Bechdel Test, and it originates in an Alison Bechdel Dykes To Watch Out For comic strip. If you google it, it should pop right up. You laugh, but look at some of your favorite movies, or some recent popular ones. The test is actually, is there more than one female character, do they talk to each other, about something OTHER than a man? If you can't answer yes to all three, the comic strip character says she won't watch the movie. Even a lot of films or books with 'strong female characters' don't pass this test.

I didn't say they did, and if that was the impression I gave, I apologize. It was a part of the conversation that my boyfriend brought up that it was an old test used in films. I just didn't give the whole explanation. I'm more interested in the questions and what they might mean, but I apologize if I wasn't clear.
 

kaitie

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In my personal opinion, the best strong female character is not the currently popular Buffy* knockoff type, just a chick in tight leather who can drop a guy with her mad ninja skills. To me female strength is much more interesting when it's more realistic: strength to make the hard decisions, strength to do the right thing, strength to survive the unsurvivable, strength to hold people together, etc. I know plenty of women are highly trained killing machines who can kick your nose through the back of your head, but that's pretty boring all by itself. It's just the male story with boobies added in.

*I'm not a huge fan, but original Buffy was a well-rounded character who had both mad ninja skills AND great strength of character and strong female energy. Characters that followed her tend to be only superficially similar.

I think you can also have a character who is a well-trained killing machine and strong as hell, but who is actually weak. I think that's where the mistake a lot of people make of equating physical strength with personal strength comes into play. I think you're spot on in all of this.
 

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Interesting discussion. I think women have amazing strength of endurance, especially if they are able to focus on another person and endure on their behalf, eg their children. A friend of mine who died last year, and who is much missed, always amazed me with how she'd go to bat for her kids, even in the middle of a stinking divorce and her own severe health and financial problems. It's that day-to-day being the stone that's dripped on but doesn't wear that's impressive to me.

It's sad that Alien doesn't pass the Bechdel test. I love that film. It was the first film I ever saw in my life where I was able to root for a woman.
 

kaitie

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Interesting discussion. I think women have amazing strength of endurance, especially if they are able to focus on another person and endure on their behalf, eg their children. A friend of mine who died last year, and who is much missed, always amazed me with how she'd go to bat for her kids, even in the middle of a stinking divorce and her own severe health and financial problems. It's that day-to-day being the stone that's dripped on but doesn't wear that's impressive to me.

This hits on something that I was thinking about. I think, for a lot of people, a strong woman is one who doesn't take on the traditional roles, and I admit, it's probably a lot harder to write a strong woman who is more traditional without falling into stereotypes, but a woman can be a mother and a wife and be an incredibly strong, inspiring character as well.

This is actually interesting because I'm writing a book right now with two main female characters. One is married and pregnant, and in a lot of ways she's the strongest character in the book. A little too reckless, maybe, but strong in that sense that she knows what she wants and is determined, and when problems crop up she has a tendency to say "okay, how do I deal with it?" instead of getting concerned. While she is in some ways "rescued" early on, she's as much a part of the rescue as he is. They work together to get the job done.

The second woman is a career woman--unmarried, building a name for herself, and her goals are less traditional. She isn't interested in marriage or family, and she is more concerned with getting to the top of a career ladder. In some ways, though, she starts out as a weaker character. She backs down because she doesn't want to jeopardize her job. It isn't until later on in the book that she starts to come into her own and stand up for herself and what she believes is right. And in the end, she's the one who saves the day, not the guys.
 

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I love this question! Because I love to read about strong women in the books I read, and there are quite a few writers who do that really well.

For me, a strong person is one who is strong enough to be self-sufficient in every way - earning their own money, being able to take care of themselves, strive to better themselves, but who still know how to surround themselves with good friends, and who dare to lean on them when they need to. ETA: and also who is able to be there for their friends when necessary as well.
 

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Originally Posted by Kitty Pryde
In my personal opinion, the best strong female character is not the currently popular Buffy* knockoff type, just a chick in tight leather who can drop a guy with her mad ninja skills. To me female strength is much more interesting when it's more realistic: strength to make the hard decisions, strength to do the right thing, strength to survive the unsurvivable, strength to hold people together, etc.

Absolutely - I've got a kick arse female in my series. But my MC comes to realise she's not the strongest of the women he meets (certainly not emotionally).

Thing is, the quiet kind of strength of character Kitty describes here - the strength to make the hard choices etc - often gets overlooked, in both male and female characters (and IRL!). It's less flashy, less showy, less KAPOW. But in the end, I prefer it for both men and women.
 

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To me female strength is much more interesting when it's more realistic: strength to make the hard decisions, strength to do the right thing, strength to survive the unsurvivable, strength to hold people together, etc.
See, I think this is what makes a strong character--male or female. If she talks about a boy in the meantime, I'm not sure that's a deal-breaker. For myself, at least, when I read a strong female character, I want to both roll my eyes at her fickleness (because it comforts me to know I'm not the only fickle woman out there) and also aspire to be better (because I like the idea that I can be strong even if I am sometimes fickle).
 

acockey

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I echo Kitty pryde's point I hate when brute strength =strong instead of the entire character as a whole being strong... If you act like a ditz, holding a sword does not make you less of a ditz, instead learning how not to be a ditz does.
 

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My lady friend I classify as a strong woman. In 20+ years I've seen her survive heartbreaking, mindbreaking, harsh physical events, suffer them, but keep herself alive and keep her sense of humor and trust in others. That is what I call strong.

As for the Bechdel test: it is certainly useful, but using it dogmatically is silly. It's like most rules: there are usually variations and exceptions. For instance, I'd qualify Ripley in Aliens as a strong woman. She doesn't pass The Test? Screw the test!
 
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