The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

Wow, they wised up to how much they were spending in postage for people who had earned no money.

Took 'em HOW long to figure that out?

With 30,000 orgasmically-happy authors (or however many it's up to now), I guess the postage costs were getting untenable.

Gravity said:

With 30,000 orgasmically-happy authors (or however many it's up to now), I guess the postage costs were getting untenable.

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Make that 29,999. I'm not "orgasmically-happy".

29,999 orgasmically-happy authors and 1 mildly disgruntled one!

Let me be sure to understand this right.

Is PA sending out several "Buy your own books" letters a month?

Isn't that new? The "Hurry, hurry, buy now, operators standing by" letters used to be tailored around either the royalty-statements or publicity-stunts, didn't they?

They appear to be sending out one a week at the present time. Perhaps gearing up for the reality royalty checks they need to pop in the mail by August 31st...

That's one of the baffling things to me. I can understand avoiding anything negative about PA on the web. I can understand never stepping outside the PAMB hothouse. I can understand the firm belief that you have a "traditional publisher".

But when your publisher emails you once a week to offer you a special on your own books, how could a little nagging concern not develop? How is it people don't think, "Why isn't PA offering this great discount to bookstores? Why am I getting so many emails about buying my own books?"

I have no idea how people remain wilfully blind in the face of PA's new rapacity.

Because they're playing Author: The RPG and they want to win. Real bad. Anything to help them achieve the dream and remain A Published Author, they'll do it without question. They're so insulated from how publishing actually works, they accept the weekly emails as the norm and don't pay attention that you have to buy more this week than you did last if you want to get that discount. And remember: any purchase over 20 COPIES gets you royalties! It's the old vaudeville gag. Queen of Swords comes to me because I owe her $5. I don't have it so I ask brianm to pay me that $5 he owes me. He doesn't have it because Gravity owes him $5. Gravity has to ask QoS for that $5 she owes him, so QoS pays Gravity who pays brianm who pays me so I can pay QoS AND NOW EVERYBODY'S SQUARE!

Uh, Gravity never actually paid me. He said he'd put a copy of my book's cover on his site and I'd get lots of sales sells that way. He said it was worth more than five bucks, too.

'There are none so blind as those who will not see." They live in the state of denial.

(Gravity actually owes me $20, but I figured it would be tacky to mention it in an online forum.)

C'mon, man, gimme a break! You know I'm good for it, right??

I like the 'who's on first' analogy. I was thinking the same thing yesterday.

Overall, if a book happens to sell, PA keeps 92%. So a $20 book nets 'author' $1.60.

Now, PA will sell it to you for 50% off, or $10.

If you place a $200 order [20 books], they will also pay you the $1.60 'royalty', bring the cost of your book before shipping down to $8.40. So, really you are just getting a rebate. No different than me sending in the $10 rebate coupon that came with my new modem. Oh yeah, and PA will gouge you on shipping and send the books in such a flimsy box that at least one full layer will be soaked and damaged.

A rebate, scuse me 'royalty', you get six months later, if PA credits you with the book 'sales' correctly.

And they are hoping that when you get that royalty check for $32.00 that you will be so thrilled that you will forget that those 'royalties' came from your own purchase of your own books that are likely gathering dust in a box next to your desk.

Wow, what a deal! Thanks, I'll pass. But then, I am just a gelatinous toady bug!

I have learned much about PA reading the threads. I've chuckled and felt sorrow for both victims and those choosing to share their views. Many PA authors simply shake off criticism and actually seem empowered with the negativity displayed - which leads me to the point. Are we really helping PA authors, and potential PA authors by warning and/or being critical of PA, or are we simply taking a "better than thou" attitude? Yes, I am aware many critics are in fact PA or recovering PA writers. Did anyone think that some potentially good writers would be so turned off, they would abandon writing altogether as a result of criticism? Helping or hindering?

roncouch said:

...Did anyone think that some potentially good writers would be so turned off, they would abandon writing altogether as a result of criticism? Helping or hindering?

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Knowing that the bullet is going to hit you won't change anything except the fact that you know it's going to hit. Maybe knowing it's going to hit will be enough to prepare for the shock and stay alive. I believe that's the better choice.

DaveKuzminski said:

Knowing that the bullet is going to hit you won't change anything except the fact that you know it's going to hit. Maybe knowing it's going to hit will be enough to prepare for the shock and stay alive. I believe that's the better choice.

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Dave,

You may be right. Was just expressing my thoughts. I sure don't have all the answers.

Ron

roncouch said:

I have learned much about PA reading the threads. I've chuckled and felt sorrow for both victims and those choosing to share theirs views. Many PA authors simply shake off criticism and actually seem empowered with the negativity displayed - which leads me to the point. Are we really helping PA authors, and potential PA authors by warning and/or being critical of PA, or are we simply taking a "better than thou" attitude?

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I like to back up what I say with evidence, so I'll provide a few examples of people whom have been helped by these threads.

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone on here. I almost fell into the PA mire, but thankfully found P&E and AW first. If I hadn't, I would've made one of the biggest mistakes of my life. -->
Bookgirl2021

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I'd like to thank all of the posters in this thread. It saved me from falling into the deathtrap that is Publish America a few months ago. --> TTCleveland

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Then there are the people who do get involved with PA but suspect that something is not kosher.

But I'll keep checking this site for other ideas (preferably ones that don't require spending a lot of money I don't have). Thanks for the ideas, folks. --> Don Davidson

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Let me know if more evidence is necessary. I'll be happy to provide it.

Yes, I am aware many critics are in fact PA or recovering PA writers. Did anyone think that some potentially good writers would be so turned off, they would abandon writing altogether as a result of criticism?

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I'm not clear on how criticism of one's publisher/vanity press can make someone stop writing. Could you give an example of this happening?

And let's assuming that this does happen, that someone sees PA being held up to scrutiny and ridicule, then abandons writing. Does this mean that we should not say anything negative about PA? What about other publishers and agents who are criticized in the Bewares and Background Checks forum? Their writers might read something less-than-complimentary about them and decide to stop writing too.

I've seen people take tough feedback about their work (not their publisher, their own writing) in the SYW forums and keep going. I think that's a very admirable quality in writers.

I haven't written much of anything since being pubbed by PA. It sure knocks your self esteem right on it's a@@. I have 55k words written on a second novel, just can't seem to get my head in it to finish.
Yet, I don't blame PA for this. PA definitely had a part in it, but it's my own damn fault if I don't take the time to write. I can't control what others have done or do, I can only control myself.

roncouch said:

Did anyone think that some potentially good writers would be so turned off, they would abandon writing altogether as a result of criticism? Helping or hindering?

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Well, if they can't take criticism, then they'd better well pack it in as a writer.

Being a writer is frought with criticism. In many cases, it's critical to a writer.

You need constructive crits to get your writing in shape in the first place. Then comes the crits from potential agents, and from editors. I'm doing my line edits right now. You've got to have a thick skin to survive all of this.

Of course, that's why many people go with the PA "option" in the first place. They can't stand the idea of having to make ANY changes to their "darlings," to their "golden words."

Then, once your book is published, it's out in the public. ANYONE can criticize it out there. Check out Amazon for just a taste of what "real" readers can do to some books.

So, if we dissuade some people from going after writing at all because of this PA thread, then I'd say we've actually done them a favor. Because there's no way they could have taken this business.

Susan G.

I had the cup of purple kool-aid in hand, I was actually considering PA. It sounded so easy, a perfect example of a siren song luring you onto the rocks. Because of boards like this and sites like P&E I woke up just in time, and now wouldn't touch that cesspit with a 10-foot pole.

As for criticizing some of the writers and their writing. I read an excerpt of a novel written entirely during NaNoWriMo and 'submitted' to PA pretty much 'as is.' Of course, it was accepted and given the 'chance it deserves.' It is bad. It is so horrible it would have to improve to be terrible. NNWM spewing at its worst. I'd tell her that to her face. However, even that doesn't bother me. I've written my share of dreck and will, no doubt, continue to do so.

What makes them fair game is that they strut and preen about being 'published authors', and about how being a 'published author' is difficult work, and how the limelight of being a 'published author' is worth losing your privacy for and so on and so on. The fake FAQ pages on some of the websites are a hoot. Q - "So when did you decide to become a published author." A- "Well, I have always written and decided it was time to enlighten the world by providing them with the inspiration of my stories. It was time to share my gift. Publish America brought my gift to the world."

When you act like this, you are fair game. Just like anyone else who behaves pompously. I used to be a serious comic and sci fi collector. I got to meet some of the greats in comic art. In general, with only a few exceptions, the bigger they were, the nicer and more humble they were. It was the one-hit-wonder wannabes that were pompous and obnoxious. And gone by the next convention.

Boards like this provide a valuable professional and public service. But then, I am just a jealous toady bug, so what do I know . . .

Susan Gable said:

Being a writer is frought with criticism. In many cases, it's critical to a writer.

You need constructive crits to get your writing in shape in the first place. Then comes the crits from potential agents, and from editors. I'm doing my line edits right now. You've got to have a thick skin to survive all of this.

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Uncle Jim once pointed out to me that this is one of the problems with a PA-published book. With your traditional royalty-paying commercial publisher, the criticism and rejection are between the publisher and the author. Thus the exchange is a private affair.

With PA-printed books, however, your work is now out in the world for all to see. (In theory, at least. In reality, PA admitted during arbitration that its main customers are its authors.) This means any problems or weaknesses with the manuscript are now open for public criticism and ridicule.

This is precisely what happened a few years back with Night Travels of the Elven Vampire.

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts. If you re-read my comments, you will note I referred to some PA folks as victims, and recovering PA writers, and merely asked if you felt criticism of potentially good writers would help or hinder them. Apparently the majority of you feel you are a positive force - a guiding light for poor misguided PA folks. The evidence provided proves you are right. Constructive criticism is required - no doubt about it.

roncouch said:

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts. If you re-read my comments, you will note I referred to some PA folks as victims, and recovering PA writers, and merely asked if you felt criticism of potentially good writers

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Actually, what you asked was, "Are we really helping PA authors, and potential PA authors by warning and/or being critical of PA".

There's a difference between the criticism of writers and the criticism of those writers' publisher or vanity press. If your original question had focused on comments made about writers (as opposed to comments made about PA), it wouldn't have been so cut-and-dried.

Apparently the majority of you feel you are a positive force - a guiding light for poor misguided PA folks.

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I don't think of myself as a "guiding light". I'm just another writer with opinions (albeit ones I can usually back up in a debate).

I was on a critique site. I looked at this piece and gave my opinions. I was empathetic and farily specific, as I usually make notes at the end of each paragraph, or so(This site has a ver OLD format and discourages users from 'cut/past' of the submission you're reviewing). Anyway, the person I critiqued shot me a message saying that he couldn't make heads or tales of my review. I inquired further. He informed me that the name he used is "Just one of my pseudonyms" and that he has been published many times, some of them "In paying markets". Look, I'm a 'newbie' but I know what 'echos' are(he said that he needed an example!). I know about 'show don't tell'(he said that he is the writer and he sould be telling the reader what to think). I know about the dreaded 'abusing the modifiers'.....This dude tore me a new ass. He was insulting and abusive. So, maybe it's not just the 'PA' enigma, but that for some ANY TYPE OF PUBLICATION credit, turns them into, 'How dare you. Don't you know who I am?' He went on to tell me how I should be critiquing. I should be telling him about how he did in his 'characterizations'. What this 'Published Author' didn't get was that I couldn't concentrate on his characterizations because I was trying to sort out all of the adjectives........A published author? Yes. A quality author???????? The sun even shines on a dog's ass every now and then......BTW, Mr. Published, that last statement is called 'a cliche'. Do you know what that is?????

end of rant

Hummertime said:

Uncle Jim once pointed out to me that this is one of the problems with a PA-published book. With your traditional royalty-paying commercial publisher, the criticism and rejection are between the publisher and the author. Thus the exchange is a private affair.

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Not entirely. Anything you have published is open to criticism by the general public. Even if you've been through a tough editing process, even if the production values are high, you still have to face the readers.

You have to have a tough skin. The editor and publisher may love the final product. You may be happy. Your agent may be pleased. But if the audience still doesn't like it ... well, at least you still have your advance, and it's probably more than a buck. ;-)