Is 'Just write it' ALWAYS good advice?

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shadowwalker

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Good advice for a plotter? Unlikely.

I don't know of very many plotters who keep their outline in their head. It's written down. They write down their notes. They write down possible scenes. They write character bios.

There's always a period of thinking about something. But at some point, everyone needs to start writing, whether it's an outline or the story itself.
 

Mr Flibble

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I

Good advice for a plotter? Unlikely.

I know this guy, and he's had a book in mind, plotting, for ooohhh longer than I've been writing. He's got all the details worked out, he can talk all night long on the ins and outs of characters, arcs, sub plots, setting... etc.

He has yet to actually write one word of the story. Every time he goes to, he sits down, writes three sentences, declares them crap, deletes them and puts it off until he 'just tinkers with X' in the outline.

So yeah, even plotters have to actually gird the loins, sit down and write the story at some point.

Is it always good advice? Nope, but then not much is. So, given that often as not it IS good advice, should we stop offering it?
 

bearilou

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Anyone who's in this thread and guilty of suggesting to just write it, who's a plotter themselves, care to raise a hand?

I will. *raises hand*

Which is kind of what I'm arguing in this current thread now. 'Just write it' can be valid under certain circumstances. From procrastination, to being indecisive about a direction, to trying to get past a sticking point/hump, to moving beyond outline vapor lock. A myriad of situations that can lead to bogging down due to a stranglehold on the outline.

In many instances, I have actually said 'let your outline go and just write and see where it takes you' or 'just write it'. Except I'm not really saying 'just write it', I'm also trying to give reassurance to another (possible) plotter that it's okay to deviate from the outline sometimes and you can't possibly know what can come of it unless you...ohdear...just do it.

That said, I have seen on many occasions on this forum (and no, I can't point to them because they haven't occurred in such a time frame that I can put my mitts on the links) where I have seen someone come to get opinions and state that they aren't so much bogged down but want opinions or need a specific direction and have seen the chorus of 'just write it' come out at them.

Which is great if they had actually had an issue. They were soliciting opinions, hoping to engage in conversation, to maybe even brainstorm to see if there were other options they hadn't considered. And I watched as they struggled in frustration to get that point across in the face of 'just do it'. They understood the novel wasn't being written by committee nor were they looking for permission to write. They were trying to converse.

Is it always good advice? Nope, but then not much is. So, given that often as not it IS good advice, should we stop offering it?

Stop offering it? No. In many cases, it is just the kick in the pants the OP would need. In those cases, sure, maybe flipping off a 'just do it' comment would be enough. Maybe. It's an individual thing, I suppose. I would suggest that instead of an all or nothing, either or response that perhaps if the OP questions allows it, to offer more insight other than 'just write it'.
 

Mr Flibble

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That said, I have seen on many occasions on this forum (and no, I can't point to them because they haven't occurred in such a time frame that I can put my mitts on the links) where I have seen someone come to get opinions and state that they aren't so much bogged down but want opinions or need a specific direction and have seen the chorus of 'just write it' come out at them.
Perhaps (and I'm just pantsing my post here...) though that's not the fault of the advice. It doesn't make it bad advice, necessarily. Perhaps the OP wasn't very clear about what they wanted/needed, perhaps the person saying just write thinks maybe it will help or they are in a rush or perhaps the OP stated they don't know what works for them yet so it's actually valid, or maybe the poster read the OP wrong or....

Yeah, sometimes it's not good advice, but then again, it's up to the OP to sift all the advice they get anyway. Otherwise, if they took all the suggestions, they'd often end up doing about fifty different contrary things...

ETA:
I would suggest that instead of an all or nothing, either or response that perhaps if the OP questions allows it, to offer more insight other than 'just write it'.
Oh, I concur, but most people DO add more than just that (except when it's fairly obvious the OP just wants permission to do X)
 

Hamilton

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you toss that around like the group is a monolith; I would bet you at least a third of the folks saying "just write it" do in fact consider themselves plotters.

Anyone who's in this thread and guilty of suggesting to just write it, who's a plotter themselves, care to raise a hand?
Just because a someone who plots their stories is giving the advice doesn't necessarily mean they're not throwing out the "just write" advice too hastily. There are also degrees of plotters, from the more flexible to those who need to plan out every part of a scene step by step.

Many people make assumptions based on what's easy for them. For example, a plotter who can make decisions easily might tell an indecisive and confused plotter to "just write", not realizing that the indecisive plotter really needs to learn to organize their ideas in a methodical manner that isn't overwhelming. I had that problem myself.

But the issue isn't whether the advice is given by someone who plots themselves or not.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Perhaps (and I'm just pantsing my post here...) though that's not the fault of the advice. It doesn't make it bad advice, necessarily. Perhaps the OP wasn't very clear about what they wanted/needed, perhaps the person saying just write thinks maybe it will help or they are in a rush or perhaps the OP stated they don't know what works for them yet so it's actually valid, or maybe the poster read the OP wrong or....

Yeah, sometimes it's not good advice, but then again, it's up to the OP to sift all the advice they get anyway. Otherwise, if they took all the suggestions, they'd often end up doing about fifty different contrary things...

ETA: Oh, I concur, but most people DO add more than just that (except when it's fairly obvious the OP just wants permission to do X)

Sifting advice can be fairly difficult for beginners. A reasonably skilled writer who is stuck and comes for advice will likely have enough sense of their own processes to be able to tell which advice to follow. A person starting out looks for help in all directions and often does not understand how they work well enough to sort through advice.
 

bearilou

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Yeah, sometimes it's not good advice, but then again, it's up to the OP to sift all the advice they get anyway. Otherwise, if they took all the suggestions, they'd often end up doing about fifty different contrary things...

Not disagreeing that the OP would need to be able to sift through all the advice to get what they want out of it. Except if the only advice is 'just write it' when they were looking for something a little more.

ETA: Oh, I concur, but most people DO add more than just that (except when it's fairly obvious the OP just wants permission to do X)

Yeah, it's usually that advice that I find most useful, even though I'm not the one who asked the question or even had an issue! So much to learn when there's more conversation going on. But then, I'm all about sucking all the useful information out of this place that I possibly can, draining every last drop!
 

Mr Flibble

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But the issue isn't whether the advice is given by someone who plots themselves or not.

The issue is whether it is helpful to a given person.

The thing is ANY advice will be unhelpful to some people - if you told me that I had to sit down and organise everything, write out timelines and character sheets and all that before I started, it would be very bad advice for me, because I'd get bored and end up not writing at all.

When people say 'Just write' (or any other piece of advice) they are usually giving the advice they would find helpful themselves. It won't be helpful to everyone, and that's usually pretty clear (often too, there will be several different pieces of advice in a thread - it's very rare to see the only advice is 'just write' - so the OP can pick one to try and see if it works)

People don't have to take the advice.
A reasonably skilled writer who is stuck and comes for advice will likely have enough sense of their own processes to be able to tell which advice to follow. A person starting out looks for help in all directions and often does not understand how they work well enough to sort through advice.
If someone doesn't know what their process is, they need to try lots of different ones till they find the one that works though, surely? And that would include 'just writing'.? Because if you don't know your process yet, it could be anything....

ETA: I suppose I'm not seeing the real problem here - advice can never work for everybody. That's fairly fundamental, so why the antipathy towards people sharing what works for them?
 

RichardGarfinkle

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ETA: I suppose I'm not seeing the real problem here - advice can never work for everybody. That's fairly fundamental, so why the antipathy towards people sharing what works for them?

Either of the following works fine.

1. I find sitting down and just writing works for me.

2. Here's a list of things that have been known to work for different writers (with just write it on the list)

Those are both qualitatively different from 'Just Write It!' as an imperitive.
 

amergina

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I think I've figured out my issue with 'just write' being advised to readily:

You can't "just write" until you've made a decision about what to write, even if it's just the next sentence.

On one extreme, complete pansters make decisions about what to write sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph, scene by scene.

On the other extreme, complete plotters make as many decisions as possible before they start writing. When they do start writing, they're only making small scale decisions, like how to phrase dialogue or describe specific actions.

When a writer makes the wrong decisions on their first draft, which is inevitable, they have to figure out what the mistakes were and fix them. The more bad decisions in the first draft, the more rewriting.

I think those who say "just write" is a valid solution for everyone aren't considering that the decisions a writer is struggling with still have to be made. In my experience, when you're forcing yourself to "just write", you're making decisions as fast as possible so you can keep writing.

Sometimes that's exactly what needed to happen. Other times, the stress a writer felt about a decision was justified, and they may have caused significant problems by choosing too quickly.

People like me simply can't handle writing and making big decisions about what to write at the same time. Sure, I can do it if I absolutely have to. But every panster who insists that they lose interest in a story if they outline it could probably write that way if they absolutely had to.

Good advice for a plotter? Unlikely.

The OP in one thread was worried about their ability to handle a complex three part story. They were in the process of making an outline, which would be particularly useful because there were going to be overlapping timelines. There are plenty of ways to give advice on the OP's problem without saying, "Just start writing, even if you haven't finished your outline."

The other OP, who didn't know what to do with their inciting incident, looked like they needed to learn how to brainstorm. Later in the thread they realized they needed to write down everything they knew about the story already, and work from there, which is often how brainstorming ends up starting.

In either case, if those OPs worked best with a complete outline and they hadn't finished one, "just write" would have been useless advice. Was that necessarily the case? I don't know. But you don't know either.

Telling a plotter to "just write" before they're done with a plot outline isn't just useless advice; it can be harmful advice. You can't just make the assumption that everyone's process is the same as your own, and anyone putting off writing is doing it for no good reason.

I always thought outlining a novel, for plotters, was part of writing. That is, a detailed outline is essentially a very loose first draft where you figure out all the stuff and see if it works. And if it doesn't you fix the outline. And then you "rewrite" the outline into a tighter and more formal draft of the novel.

So perhaps plotters should take "Just write it!" as if the advice-giver was saying "Just plot it!" and see if it works?
 

James D. Macdonald

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I think those who say "just write" is a valid solution for everyone aren't considering that the decisions a writer is struggling with still have to be made.

I'm still not convinced these people exist.


The OP in one thread was worried about their ability to handle a complex three part story. They were in the process of making an outline, which would be particularly useful because there were going to be overlapping timelines. There are plenty of ways to give advice on the OP's problem without saying, "Just start writing, even if you haven't finished your outline."

I presume you're talking about this thread? Is it normal to feel apprehensive about approaching complex stories?

The OP there has a complex three-part story, with one part completely outlined. In that case, advising the person to start writing the part that's been completely outlined, while working on the outlines of the other two parts, is exactly the right advice.
The other OP, who didn't know what to do with their inciting incident, looked like they needed to learn how to brainstorm. Later in the thread they realized they needed to write down everything they knew about the story already, and work from there, which is often how brainstorming ends up starting.

I presume you're talking about this thread? lack of 'inciting incident'

The OP there has a complete story, but is being paralysed by the perceived lack of an "inciting incident" (a term from academic criticism, as persons other than the author try to analyse a story). "Just write it" is excellent advice there, too. The perfect opening won't appear until the second draft. At the earliest.

I call to mind a young lady I knew, many years ago, who wanted to be a writer but couldn't write unless she had the title exactly centered on the page. (This was in the days of manual typewriters.) To date, I'm pretty sure she's never written anything.

Telling a plotter to "just write" before they're done with a plot outline isn't just useless advice; it can be harmful advice. You can't just make the assumption that everyone's process is the same as your own, and anyone putting off writing is doing it for no good reason.

If someone needs a complete outline, they should just write it.
 

kkbe

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Pity the writer who plots himself--

Wait, let me rephrase. :) Pity the writer who plots and plots and plots and never writes a thing.

Just as one might say, Pity the writer who mindlessly churns out page after page of pure, unadulterated crap because he wrote without even the slightest coherant idea in that little pea brain of his.

The question, Is 'Just write it' ALWAYS good advice?, incites heated debate because the word ALWAYS is in there. What if we rephrase?

Is 'Just write it' ever good advice?

Or,

Is 'Just write it' good advice?

Or,

When, if ever, is 'Just write it' good advice?

Change the wording, change the semantics. Or maybe people don't want to. Because debate is fun. And highly educational.

Always. :)
 
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shadowwalker

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A person starting out looks for help in all directions and often does not understand how they work well enough to sort through advice.

I don't understand what you're saying here - should only one person advise a new writer so they don't get confused? Part of learning to write is learning about different methods and ideas and trying them to see if they work for that writer.
 

Hamilton

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If someone needs a complete outline, they should just write it.
You know as well as I do that "just write it" is a big oversimplification.

Writing, whether it's an outline or a novel or a script or an essay or a poem, involves piles choices. "Just write it" is useless to the person who is already writing but needs advice on how they can get character A to location B during C, despite D.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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I don't understand what you're saying here - should only one person advise a new writer so they don't get confused? Part of learning to write is learning about different methods and ideas and trying them to see if they work for that writer.

That's why saying something on the order of, "This works for me, you might try it." is a good form of advice, but "Everyone must do this in order to write" is generally not.

Or more bluntly:

Subjunctive good.
Imperative bad.
 

amergina

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You know as well as I do that "just write it" is a big oversimplification.

Writing, whether it's an outline or a novel or a script or an essay or a poem, involves piles choices. "Just write it" is useless to the person who is already writing but needs advice on how they can get character A to location B during C, despite D.

Well, that's the kind of specific research-type question one would find in (or would wind up being ported to) Story Research :Experts and Interviews Wanted.

And the answers given there are generally not "Just write it!"
 

Hamilton

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For the love of Benji, Hamilton, if you never write your book that's just fine with me.
Touchy, touchy. No need to get personal. You were the one who decided to come into this thread.

Really, though, I think this comment says a lot. Instead of actually admitting that "just write" isn't going to help someone with a specific problem they're trying to fix, you just threw up your hands and started making comments about me.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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You know as well as I do that "just write it" is a big oversimplification.

Writing, whether it's an outline or a novel or a script or an essay or a poem, involves piles choices. "Just write it" is useless to the person who is already writing but needs advice on how they can get character A to location B during C, despite D.
We all face those choices, no matter what kind of writer we are (pantser or outliner). And none of us can make those decisions for you. Thus: just write it. Because ultimately, its your story and your decisions.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Okay, Hamilton.

If your problem is that you need advice on how they can get character A to location B during C, despite D. Then here it is: They can drive.

If nothing happens during the drive, you don't have to show it.

But that isn't where the "just write it" advice tends to turn up, and you know it.

Rather, it's when the discussion goes, "I want to write a book."

"Cool."

"I can't write it until I do X."

"Cool, so do X."

"I can't do X until I do Y."

"So do Y."

"I can't do Y until I do Z."

"Listen, forget X, Y, and Z. Just write your flippin' book."
 

quicklime

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You know as well as I do that "just write it" is a big oversimplification.

Writing, whether it's an outline or a novel or a script or an essay or a poem, involves piles choices. "Just write it" is useless to the person who is already writing but needs advice on how they can get character A to location B during C, despite D.


so, instead of an oversimplification, shall we now advise "Take a four-year writing program, and get all them nuances there before you make a move?"

This is silly; you're in knots about if this sometimes doesn't work, as though a revelation is right around the corner that there are exceptions to rules.....the cases you have mentioned, if Jim found the right ones, were for very particular instances....and he even explained why. Is there really something you don't get here, or are you grinding a personal axe? Because no advice is ALWAYS right, so unless you're actually suggesting none be give, ever, to avoid this terrible risk, I'm not sure what you expect to come of this.
 

quicklime

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Touchy, touchy. No need to get personal. You were the one who decided to come into this thread.

Really, though, I think this comment says a lot. Instead of actually admitting that "just write" isn't going to help someone with a specific problem they're trying to fix, you just threw up your hands and started making comments about me.


i see a nastygram from moderation in your future....

*shakes head
 

Hamilton

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We all face those choices, no matter what kind of writer we are (pantser or outliner). And none of us can make those decisions for you. Thus: just write it. Because ultimately, its your story and your decisions.
Of course you need to make your own decisions. But that doesn't mean we can't solicit advice on those decisions from others. Hell, maybe half of this forum is dedicated to just that.
James D. Macdonald said:
But that isn't where the "just write it" advice tends to turn up, and you know it.
Yeah, I know it so much I started an entire thread about it.

And your previous comment was still a really crappy thing to say.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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Of course you need to make your own decisions. But that doesn't mean we can't solicit advice on those decisions from others. Hell, maybe half of this forum is dedicated to just that.
Asking for advice on HOW to write is one thing, expecting advice on WHAT to write is something else again.
 
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