A horse/tack question

I've seen pictures on the Bad Riding Livejournal community which would probably be helpful with this. One thing off the top of my head is the squire could have done something backwards with the bit or the reins.

See, I've been pondering on this. I would say the best thing would be something like the bit being fitted too high (or too low), a fold in the saddlepad under the saddle, or just the wrong bridle entirely - one for a much smaller or larger horse perhaps?

There isn't much on a bridle you could buckle up incorrectly, but if you didn't know how to put one on at all, the horse would probably lead you a merry dance! So would the squire not having managed to put the bridle on at all work for you?

Easiest thing to do wrong and easiest to fix is a twist in the girth on the off (right) side of the horse. Fixed by unhooking the girth, remove twist, and refasten. Takes less than a minute.

It will thoroughly piss off the horse when the girth is tightened, which you don't always do immediately.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

The thing with a twisted cheekpiece is that to get it twisted, you'd have to have put the bridle together incorrectly in the first place, and it's not something you'd normally take apart.

I don't know how you'd twist the girth - it couldn't be a simple twist because then the buckles would be the wrong way round, and a double twist feels implausible to me - you'd have to be trying quite hard!

Could the squire have cleaned the tack, put the bridle together with one cheekpiece higher than the other (so the bit sits too high), and the rider notice and fix it (would take a matter of seconds) and berate the squire for being so dumb? (The buckle normally wears a groove in the leather so you know which holes are regularly used).

You could just have him not tighten the girth enough so that when the guy tries to mount the saddle starts to slide. It's inconvenient and a little embarrassing but easy to fix (hoist the saddle back up, re-tighten girth). However, it won't make the horse mad. They actually will hold their breath when you tighten the girth so it'll be loose. You have to know to tighten it *again* when they're not ready for you.

Aerial

mrsmig said:

I have a scenario in which my MC's squire (an inept and inexperienced boy) has been tasked with getting his master's horse saddled and bridled for a simple ride.

I need something to be slightly wrong with the job - nothing drastic that would require a complete do-over, but just enough wrong that it would annoy the horse and be evident to an experienced horseman doing a quick walk-around before he mounts.

The setting is a medieval-esque fantasy, if that's any help.

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That isn't something a squire would do. A squire is a knight-in-training, an aristocrat. A stable lad would saddle (and groom) the horse. The knight or squire would then double-check the tack before mounting the horse he would be riding. (There are in fact not only references to this in various historic manuals, there are pictures.)

Moreover, he would have been riding daily since he was six or seven. He wouldn't make a mistake like that.

A squire would assist the knight in terms of donning his armor.

A squire would be c. 14 or so, and would have not only come from the an aristocratic or wealthy family, he would have spent six or seven years, already, as a page, either in the home of a relative or a family connection—i.e. Chaucer, whose father was a wine merchant, served as a page in the household of Elizabeth de Burgh, Countess of Ulster (wife of Prince Lionel).

AW Admin said:

That isn't something a squire would do. A squire is a knight-in-training, an aristocrat. A stable lad would saddle (and groom) the horse. The knight or squire would then double-check the tack before mounting the horse he would be riding. (There are in fact not only references to this in various historic manuals, there are pictures.)

Moreover, he would have been riding daily since he was six or seven. He wouldn't make a mistake like that.

A squire would assist the knight in terms of donning his armor.

A squire would be c. 14 or so, and would have not only come from the an aristocratic or wealthy family, he would have spent six or seven years, already, as a page, either in the home of a relative or a family connection—i.e. Chaucer, whose father was a wine merchant, served as a page in the household of Elizabeth de Burgh, Countess of Ulster (wife of Prince Lionel).

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True, but he probably wouldn't put the bit on backwards or upside down, either, or some of the other things that have been suggested. The OP said his squire was an "inept and inexperienced boy" who could certainly make a simple mistake.

Aerial

Assuming the horse is wearing it's own tack then things like a bit being too high or low shouldn't be a problem unless it was changed. most common problems I see with inexperienced people are putting the saddle too far back so it's not balanced, not sitting on the correct part of the back and so it presses down on more sensitive areas, puts strain on a weaker part of the back and has a higher risk of slippage and movement - this is very easy to do especially on a more cobby sort of horse with low withers and a broad back.

I've seen newbies get in a right tangle with martingales. And depending on the bridle, you might get something all wrong (Some are more fancy than others). Some bits are trickier than others too (ETA: I recall making a right hash up of my first time using a curb bit and chain for instance).

In mediaeval times - is the horse wearing any barding? A caparison? After a certain time (which I cannot recall, sorry) double reins became more common, and they can be a devil if you don't know what you're about.

A sod of a horse will make all of these things harder to do as well! And they will know your guy is a newbie too...nothing like getting semi concussed by being headbutted by a horse to make you cock things up.

Inflating horses can catch out even the brightest of novices. If you don't want your squire to look like a total idiot, have the horse make sure the girth is loose. And tread on his foot just to make things clear.

Normal girth tightening won't do that assuming you've used the scenario where a horse blows its belly out to stop the girth being tightened. The horse would eventually breathe normally again and the person would tighten the girth so the saddle didn't slip and all would be well.

It's worth noting that horses are pretty stoic animals - they are prey animals so have to be! Something minor and easily fixed wouldn't be likely to make the horse bite if it was not the sort to bite normally. Biting is an aggressive thing, and I can't imagine any horse well handled enough to be a knights horse would go for the rider unless something pretty major had happened.

Could you have the horse shy away from the rider instead? How about if the squire had got a bit cross/rough with the horse when tacking up, which was not the treatment the horse was used to, so when the knight approaches, the horse skitters away from him rather than being quiet and pleasant.

usuallycountingbats said:

Biting is an aggressive thing, and I can't imagine any horse well handled enough to be a knights horse would go for the rider unless something pretty major had happened.

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You might think so, but having handled police horses (which are the modern equivalent perhaps, and very well trained) they can be just as grumpy in the stable/while not being ridden as any other horse! Training does not alter the basic personality

They may be more subtle about it perhaps....

Mr Flibble said:

You might think so, but having handled police horses (which are the modern equivalent perhaps, and very well trained) they can be just as grumpy in the stable/while not being ridden as any other horse! Training does not alter the basic personality

They may be more subtle about it perhaps....

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This is my point. Horses which will bite, will already be biting. But the OP said she wants the horse to do something out of character. If a horse is not predisposed to biting, then something minor wrong with the tack probably isn't going to make it start. So the setup which the OP wants (for the horse to act as though it doesn't like the rider) isn't going to come about via this method.

Just my opinion of course, but I've had lots of horses, handled far more and run a few yards - none of the horses which were generally pleasant and liked people on a day to day basis would have bitten you because you did a buckle up wrong, or twisted a strap or whatever. Those that did bite, would probably do it because you patted them without paying attention

Are you trying to sell this to people who understand horses or non-horse people?

Horses in many ways are very sensitive animals, responding to their rider's commands, but also their emotions. Good horse people recognize that fact (and have for centuries). Someone who is concerned about their horse "abandoning" them, someone who is attuned to that, isn't going to be concerned about a horse taking a bite at him when he (or his groom) messes up.

Assuming the horse would deal with the problem by biting, it's a one time thing caused by the rider. For the rider to blame the horse requires the rider to ignore the fact that the rider messed up. That's not taking much responsibility on the rider's part and makes me think the rider isn't much of a horseman.

Realize that the majority of people in the past, and even many owners of today, are not good horse people, and blame the horse no matter how the owner screws up. I've bought quite a few horses very cheap because of this fact.

But your character is a contradiction that I'm not finding believable.

What would concern the rider in this situation is a gradual souring of the horse. The well balanced relationship between the horse and rider gradually goes south. For example, for show horses the horse that used to get blue ribbons now refuses to go into the show arena.

Now as the rider's emotions go south because of his internal stress, this can start showing up in his riding and handling of the horse, without him being aware of it. The horse, in response, starts going downhill in behavior. And all of a sudden, the rider realizes that over the past few weeks his horse, who used to be his partner, is now his enemy.

Here's where writing about horses becomes complicated. Many writers have to use horses because it's part of the background to their world. Many try to incorporate the horse into the book not understanding horses. This leads people like me, who understand horses, to enjoy a good laugh.

This isn't to tell you whether you have a good idea here or not. I do like the idea of a rider realizing how bad his life is through his horse. Most readers won't have problems with your scenario. But I thought I should mention the risks you incur. It's hard to do this stuff good enough.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Yes.

Jim

Depends on the horse (one that took some time to get used to/trust the MC might be a better bet -- a horse that has a basic personality of "yeah, dude, whatever" will be less likely to act up. One that is basically a grumpy sod but the MC has forged a relationship with...different)

ETA: it's like the difference between a stoner who is all laid back and Goebbals... Each will react differently to being poked.

I wrote this based upon the original post and before I (was forced) to refresh the page:

Minor thing that shows a tiny bit of sloppiness and can possibly annoy a horse depending on situation and temperament is leaving excess strap on the saddle to flap around, as opposed to tucking it in.

Now a bit of add-on: To say horses are stoic is just silly. Horse biting can be from mistreatment, high-pressure situations depending upon rank and such, and more. Additionally, there's different things that (non-horse) people would qualify as "biting". Nipping to establish/maintain rank is something that happens in even the best behaved horses, albeit pretty rarely. So is simply playing. Or investigating. We've a horse that's fascinated by shoes. He's untied a couple in the past. Horses in general aren't big fans of hats. They may want to check 'em out or pull 'em off.

My one cent.

RandomJerk said:

Now a bit of add-on: To say horses are stoic is just silly.

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Horses are the very definition of stoic. They put up with our nonsense without complaining, day in and day out. They never cry. They have no vocalization for pain. Racehorses have been known to continue running on a broken leg. Most horses with any human socialization will respect their humans and tolerate almost anything. I doubt your well-trained knight's horse would be annoyed about anything small, but if the saddle had something under it, maybe a horse chestnut in it's outer husk that got stuck to the underside of the pad, you might get a good bucking fit.
I've had horses (and ponies, especially ponies) who would bite every time you tightened the girth. But you know it's coming by the flattened ears, and you stay out of the way. It's not worth making the animal head shy by whacking it every time it tries. The pony is only trying to show you how much he disapproves of having to work.